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Featured Jesus Fulfilled The Sacrificial System

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by gomerian, May 6, 2018.

  1. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    Maybe this context to Matthew 5:19 would be helpful to consider. First we see the same word used to talk about loosing (seemingly in reference to the community/church being given authority to decide in interpreting commands and whether to forgive sins) in Matthew 16 and 18.

    Mat 5:19
    Whosoever therefore shall break G3089 one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat 16:19
    And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose G3089 on earth shall be loosed G3089 in heaven.

    Mat 18:18
    Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose G3089 on earth shall be loosed G3089 in heaven.

    Second, when Yeshua/Jesus refers to the "kingdom of heaven" is he not referencing also those entering in after he died as well?

    (EDIT: didn't realize at first it wasn't the same word as "fulfill" so I changed some of the following) Third, when he says in Matthew 5:18 "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished." even if Christ is referring to only the things he accomplishes (which is doubtful) there are other prophecies that he will accomplish in his second coming. Also most obviously heaven and earth haven't passed away yet. So I'm curious of your thoughts on this. Interestingly Matthew 6:10 uses the same word to tell us to pray that God's will be accomplished on earth:
    [​IMG] Mat 5:18
    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [ASV says "accomplished"] G1096

    Mat 6:10
    Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done G1096 in earth, as it isin heaven.

    It doesn't say that though. In fact it seems like either Paul is misleading James and the other elders (which I think might cause problems interpreting the book of James) or Paul is agreeing that he doesn't teach against Moses:
    20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; 21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise theirchildren nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. 24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. (Acts 21 NKJV)

    This especially makes more sense to me in light of Acts 28:17 and Acts 25:8. Also Acts 6:13-14 (says the accusations that Yeshua "changed" the law are false). However, I guess you can say that Yeshua didn't "change" and didn't "destroy" the law but "fulfilled" part of it making it no longer apply.
    However, practically this would be changing or destroying it for us. This also makes either Paul or James look confused here. It also is confusing theologically. I was always confused about this when I believed like this and many atheists who read the Bible will immediately wonder why Christians don't believe in all the old testament law anymore. (the explanation by Christians is anything but straightforward)
    The degree is not a law and it's not instructions. It is a recognition that you fulfilled the requirements of the courses. However, the courses were for a set amount of time, and in the past anyway so this is circular reasoning to use that example to argue that the requirements of the law aren't for now. Yeshua walked out the law perfectly hence fulfilling it just like he fulfilled the prophecies about him but this validates the law and the prophecies.
    Are you saying Paul was bluffing about offering something and didn't really believe he should? By the way I think this is about the Nazarite vow but there is disagreement on this point. Interesting discussion here: Did Paul take the Nazarite vow in Cenchreae? If so, why this vow?

    "And the common teaching fails to show that the Ten Commandments were embedded in the New Covenant and are now embedded in the Law of Christ, which is the Law of Love (as presented in the two greatest commandments within the Torah). "
    Fourth the law in the new covenant is the same since it refers to it as the law (Torah) in the context of the old testament and it was always about love. We just have a harder time seeing it that way from our distance from the culture and our distance from God spiritually and intellectually (many of the rituals of the priests don't make sense to me but I'm sure they are important)
    Jer 31 NKJV
    31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day thatI took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

    Lastly the temple veil was torn but I have my doubts as to what that means. For instance, many scholars see similarities with Essene beliefs in early Jewish Christianity and the Essenes were critical of the temple system. I don't know if the early Christians went as far as the Essenes did in their criticism because there were obviously differences between the groups. However, my point is the tearing of the temple veil may be a warning against the temple system as it was at the time, not against the temple for all time, also see Ezekiel 44-48

    ] ’One major piece of evidence supporting that John was indeed a Qumranite is found in Josephus, who wrote of the Essenes, “They neglect wedlock, but choose other persons’ children, while they are yet pliable, and fit for learning; and esteem them to be of their own kindred, and form them according to their own manners.”’ . . . ’In conclusion, there is strong evidence that John was indeed a Qumranite, brought up at Qumran after being adopted. He was either expelled or voluntarily left before completing the two-year initiatory process and lived on his own in the Judean wilderness on the east side of the Jordan River, making his own clothes, and eating whatever he could find. For some differences between John and the Qumranites, be it in belief or practice, we have only one answer, asserted by LaSor: “How the Spirit works we do not know. We have enough records of men who claimed that they were, or were believed by others to have been, filled with the Spirit, that we can make a few observations. The Spirit uses holy men; the Spirit makes use of contemporary situations; the Spirit particularly works through the scriptures. We find in John something of each of these elements.”32’ On page 45 of: Farnes, Alan Taylor. “John the Baptist and the Qumran Connection.” Studia Antiqua, vol. 9, Apr. 2011, pp. 29–45., https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi...tpsredir=1&article=1126&context=studiaantiqua

    ”Jesus truly shed his blood on the eve of Easter at the time of the immolation of the lambs. In all likelihood, however, he celebrated the Passover with his disciples in accordance with the Qumran 49 calendar, hence, at least one day earlier; he celebrated it without a lamb, like the Qumran community which did not recognize Herod’s temple and was waiting for the new temple.” Ratzinger, Joseph Aloisius. “HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI.” MASS OF THE LORD’S SUPPER | HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI, The Holy See, Vatican State, 5 Apr. 2007, 5 April 2007: Mass of the Lord's Supper | BENEDICT XVI
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  2. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    Not if you take the entire Bible as the Word of God, and the instructions and commandments regarding the sacrificial system as coming directly from God to Moses. We cannot believe some part of the Bible and disbelieve others. Please note (Lev 1:1,2):

    And the LORD called unto Moses
    , and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
     
  3. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    I really want to make sure people don't miss this post because this may explain the meaning of the word "fulfill". I have have heard the scholar David Bivin make the same connection but I just want to make sure we aren't making it in English here. Do you know if the word used is same as Matthew 5:17 or any of the corosponding hebrew words they get from comparing the Tanakh with the Septuagint? G4137 πληρόω - Strong's Greek Lexicon
     
  4. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Someone posted:

    "The account of the stoning of Stephen is maybe one of the most obvious examples of the chosen rejection of truth:

    At this they covered their ears, cried out in a loud voice, and rushed together at him."

    Stephen's stoning fulfills two things for me -- a statement by Jesus that "there be some standing here that will not taste death" til they see the kingdom come with power (Stephen saw Jesus at right hand of Father right before he tasted death) -- and IMHO, Stephen's stoning marks the end of Daniel's 70th week

    (Well, somebody wanted to see some controversy...)
     
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  5. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    In the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT, from about 250 BC) the word pleroo in Greek translates the Hebrew word malei. It almost always means ‘to fill’ But there are other nuances of the word.

    Here is the Strong’s definition:

    4390. male', maw-lay'; or mala' (Esth. 7 : 5), maw-law'; a prim. root, to fill or (intrans.) be full of, in a wide application (lit. and fig.):--accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) fully (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly.

    Here are a couple of places that conform to the idea that malei (equivalent to pleroo in the Greek) can mean ‘to do.’ In the following passage the word seems be used in the sense of to ‘confirm, establish, authenticate.’

    1 Ki 1:13 Go and get thee in unto king David, and say unto him, Didst not thou, my lord, O king, swear unto thine handmaid, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne? why then doth Adonijah reign? 14 Behold, while thou yet talkest there with the king, I also will come in after thee, and confirm (Heb. malei, Gk. pleroo) thy words.

    There is another word in Hebrew often translated as ‘fulfil’; it is the word kum. This word is often used by the Sages in the Mishnah and Talmud and means ‘to do, to carry out.' From the following passage you can see that malei and kum are nearly synonymous.

    Jer 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled (malei) with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish (kum) your vows, and surely perform your vows.

    So to translate the Greek pleroo of Matthew 5:17 as ‘end, terminate’ is only one possible reading. I believe that the literary/cultural/historical context of this verse lends weight to tranlating pleroo as ‘confirm, authenticate’ and probably also ‘do, keep.’
     
  6. Micah888

    Micah888 Well-Known Member

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    And this is highly controversial.
     
  7. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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  8. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Stephen's stoning marks the end of Daniel's 70th week"

    'And this is highly controversial."

    I know. had to justify this thread being in Controversial Christian Theology.
     
  9. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    And John also was one of those standing there when Jesus said that about 'not tasting death until'- and John saw, in the Apocalypse, a lotta Kingdom Come.
     
  10. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mat 16:28
    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Mar 9:1
    And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

    Luk 9:27
    But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

    about Stephen:
    Act 7:54
    When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
    Act 7:55
    But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    Act 7:56
    And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    Act 7:57
    Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    Act 7:58
    And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
    Act 7:59
    And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Act 7:60
    And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
     
  11. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yogi Berra said "It ain't over til it's over".

    From where he is now, I bet he'd say "Sacrifical system is over."
     
  12. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    I don't agree with you here but I have to give you credit because this is the best explanation I've seen of how to have the law not apply today and be compatible with Matthew 5:18. You still have to deal with the "all things are accomplished" part though. :)

    "but He *did* end the Ancient Jews misinterpretation of it (keeping it only for them and not for the whole world, for instance)." That's interesting so up until 70 AD the law was still in effect but will it be back in effect when the temple is rebuilt? Ezekiel 44-48 By the way I know Ken and he doesn't eat shellfish or wear linen and wool mixture :) The later is pretty hard find nowadays anyway.
     
  13. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Was the Law still in effect when Solomon's Temple was destroyed? Were the Jews exempt from it then?
     
  14. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    @Steve Petersen just in case I was misunderstood I'm not agreeing that the law wasn't in effect after 70 AD, I'm just assuming his theory is correct for the sake of argument even though I disagree with it.
     
  15. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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  16. Anto9us

    Anto9us Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I like crawfish etouffe.
    I wear clothing of mixed fabrics.
    But I have never boiled a young goat in its mother's milk.
     
  17. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    Dietrhich Bonhoeffer in 'The Cost of Discipleship' says this about Matthew 5:17-20:

    This is the law of the Old Covenant, not a new law, but the one old law, to which the rich young man and the tempting scribe were referred as the revealed will of God. It becomes a new commandment only because Christ binds his disciples to the law. His concern is not for a better law; than that of the Pharisees. It is one and the same, it is the law which must remain and be carried out in every letter until the end of the world, which must be fulfilled to the letter. Jesus has in fact nothing to add to the commandments of God, except this, that He keeps them. He fulfills the law and, and he tells us so Himself, therefore it must be true. He fulfills the law down to the last iota.
     
  18. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    As a Gentile, you were never under the Law to begin with. It was given to Israel. The only commands God seems to have given to Gentiles were given to Noah.

    Mock the Law if you wish, but in doing so you also mock the God who gave it.
     
  19. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like I said to @Micah888 I can't make my point on this forum without getting banned. I just can't... there is something I can say, and prove... but it goes against the mainstream teaching and I am handcuffed. So... just do as you are convicted when it come to God's Instructions as will I.
     
  20. 1 John 4:1

    1 John 4:1 Member

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    @Anto9us Mat 16:28 is a fascinating verse. I disagree with that interpretation of it because I think he was talking about a literal precursor to the kingdom on earth through the people of God. In addition Matthew 10:23 makes this more clear I think: "`And whenever they may persecute you in this city, flee to the other, for verily I say to you, ye may not have completed the cities of Israel till the Son of Man may come." (Matthew 10:23) I'll have to quote my post in this thread. If you want to respond it please go to this thread: Taking Luke 14:33 literally I don't want to derail the current thread.

     
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