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I really don't think that you have any idea of just what Jesus went through to purchase your salvation. I honestly don't think that I'll ever know how much it cost Him.
I'm not sure if you intend to be blatantly shocking with your lack of fear of God, or if you are just doing it accidentally. I almost fear conversing with you because the more you say, the more you condemn yourself before God.Don't be so dramatic; worse things happen to people all the time.
I would have to disagree with you there ebia, in that he knew exactly what would happen to him, I will highlight the pertinent parts:I think part of the problem here is considering the crucifixion on it's own as the central issue, when it only makes sense within the context of whole incarnation-crucifixion-resurrection narative.
Christ's self-sacrifice on it's own would be worthless. It's value only exists when it comes at the end of the incarnation - God placing aside his glory to come and live with us and experiencing all the difficulties that entails for 30 odd years. And it's only effective because it's followed by the resurrection, by which death is defeated for everyone.
If you just look at Jesus as a man who allowed himself to be crucified then you are missing most of the picture, so you can't see the difference between that and (say) a bishop Polycarp.
Finally, it should also be noted that we don't really know how well Jesus understood what would happen to him. Obviously from his comments he had some idea, but he had also laid aside his omniscence so we don't really know how clearly he understood it before it happened. I would suggest that he didn't much idea of what would happen. No more so, anyway, than say bishop Polycarp who knew that his risen Christ would raise him after his martyrdom.
14 Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests 15 and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16 From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
17 On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?" 18 He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.'" 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover. 20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, "I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me." 22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?" 23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born." 25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." 30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
31 Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' 32 But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee." 33 Peter replied, "Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will." 34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." 35 But Peter declared, "Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you." And all the other disciples said the same.
36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." 40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." 42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." 43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!" 47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. 50 Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
Read about thromboi haimatos or hematidrosis hereFrom these factors, it is evident that even before Jesus endured the torture of the cross, He suffered far beyond what most of us will ever suffer. His penetrating awareness of the heinous nature of sin, its destructive and deadly effects, the sorrow and heartache that it inflicts, and the extreme measure necessary to deal with it, make the passion of Christ beyond all comprehension.
According to the Bible, Jesus only came to save the Jews and Israel, not the rest of us.It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.
Luke 1:66 and all who heard did lay them up in their hearts, saying, `What then shall this child be?' and the hand of the Lord was with him. 67 And Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and did prophesy, saying, 68 `Blessed [is]the Lord/Y@hovah, the God ofIsrael, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people, 69 And did RAISE an horn of salvation to Us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,Hosea 13:14 From the hand of Sheol I do Ransom them, From death I Redeem Them [Israel/Judah], Where [is] thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.
Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slaughtered, and didst Redeem/ hgorasaV <59> Us to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
According to the Bible, Jesus only came to save the Jews and Israel, not the rest of us.Luke 1:66 and all who heard did lay them up in their hearts, saying, `What then shall this child be?' and the hand of the Lord was with him. 67 And Zacharias his father was filled with the Holy Spirit, and did prophesy, saying, 68 `Blessed [is]the Lord/Y@hovah, the God ofIsrael, Because He did look upon, And wrought redemption for His people, 69 And did RAISE an horn of salvation to Us, In the house of David His servant, 70 As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,
The importance of Jesus death on the cross is actually demonstrated by your second example. Let me explain. In the internment camp, the punishment of many was laid upon one man. This is what Jesus did. It's not so much the fact that He was a martyr, but that it was our punishment that killed Him instead of us.Firstly I'd like to apologise for the title of this thread if it offends anyone by the apparant flippancy, but if you read on you'll see I have a genuine question.......
It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling martydom, but I can't see why this is seen to be so important.
If the story of the Gospels is true, then Jesus knew that he was going to be killed - in order to save everyone else in the world (if they choose to believe in him).
He also knew that there is life after death, because he is the son of God (and he is God, and the Holy Spirit?!?!?? - still not sure about the holy trinity thing, but thats another story).
And he also knew that he was going to be raised from the dead in 3 days.
I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.
Compare that to other martyrs and it doesn't seem such a big deal.
Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.
I remember hearing an example a few years back and I'm probably going to be wrong about some of the details but the point is still valid....
I think it was a prisoner of war camp in Japan during WWII and the Japanese lined all the prisoners up. Some food had gone missing and they were determined to find the culprit. The commandant (or whatever the boss was called, lets call him the commandant cos it sounds kind of prisoner of war-y) threatened to kill or severely punish (not sure?) everyone unless the thief owned up. No one moved. The commandant once again demanded that the culprit step forward. Again no one moved. A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot.
It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. It was not to save the human race. He didn't have the promise of eternal life on the right hand of God. He wasn't the messiah. He was just a good man. Yet I don't even know his name. Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.
I'm hoping that you can kind of see why I don't really understand why the Easter story is such a cornerstone of the Christian faith from this example.
Please don't think I'm being obtuse or trying to pick fights, I really do want to have what you people have got and to be able to take a leap of faith but this is 1 of many doubts/questions that I have.
Apologies as well for the length (if anyone is still reading...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
The first step to being saved is by realizing that you are a sinner. God has to open your eyes to that reality. But you can put yourself in the place of seeing, if you expose yourself to what God expects of you.wow, you seem to be argueing amongst yourselves now. I'm looking to be saved and this thread has become a bit too aggressive for me. i'll look elsehere for answers thanks.
Firstly I'd like to apologise for the title of this thread if it offends anyone by the apparant flippancy, but if you read on you'll see I have a genuine question.......
It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling martydom, but I can't see why this is seen to be so important.
If the story of the Gospels is true, then Jesus knew that he was going to be killed - in order to save everyone else in the world (if they choose to believe in him).
He also knew that there is life after death, because he is the son of God (and he is God, and the Holy Spirit?!?!?? - still not sure about the holy trinity thing, but thats another story).
And he also knew that he was going to be raised from the dead in 3 days.
I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.
Compare that to other martyrs and it doesn't seem such a big deal.
Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.
I remember hearing an example a few years back and I'm probably going to be wrong about some of the details but the point is still valid....
I think it was a prisoner of war camp in Japan during WWII and the Japanese lined all the prisoners up. Some food had gone missing and they were determined to find the culprit. The commandant (or whatever the boss was called, lets call him the commandant cos it sounds kind of prisoner of war-y) threatened to kill or severely punish (not sure?) everyone unless the thief owned up. No one moved. The commandant once again demanded that the culprit step forward. Again no one moved. A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot.
It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. It was not to save the human race. He didn't have the promise of eternal life on the right hand of God. He wasn't the messiah. He was just a good man. Yet I don't even know his name. Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.
I'm hoping that you can kind of see why I don't really understand why the Easter story is such a cornerstone of the Christian faith from this example.
Please don't think I'm being obtuse or trying to pick fights, I really do want to have what you people have got and to be able to take a leap of faith but this is 1 of many doubts/questions that I have.
Apologies as well for the length (if anyone is still reading...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)
wow, you seem to be argueing amongst yourselves now. I'm looking to be saved and this thread has become a bit too aggressive for me. i'll look elsehere for answers thanks.
nothing to forgive, i shoudn't have posted that, was having a bad dayI'm sorry I fell into that C4H, this is about you, not us debating, please forgive me?
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