Jesus died for me..... so what?

[cryforhelp]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for the title of this thread if it offends anyone by the apparant flippancy, but if you read on you'll see I have a genuine question.......

It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling martydom, but I can't see why this is seen to be so important.

If the story of the Gospels is true, then Jesus knew that he was going to be killed - in order to save everyone else in the world (if they choose to believe in him).
He also knew that there is life after death, because he is the son of God (and he is God, and the Holy Spirit?!?!?? - still not sure about the holy trinity thing, but thats another story).
And he also knew that he was going to be raised from the dead in 3 days.

I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.

Compare that to other martyrs and it doesn't seem such a big deal.

Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.

I remember hearing an example a few years back and I'm probably going to be wrong about some of the details but the point is still valid....

I think it was a prisoner of war camp in Japan during WWII and the Japanese lined all the prisoners up. Some food had gone missing and they were determined to find the culprit. The commandant (or whatever the boss was called, lets call him the commandant cos it sounds kind of prisoner of war-y) threatened to kill or severely punish (not sure?) everyone unless the thief owned up. No one moved. The commandant once again demanded that the culprit step forward. Again no one moved. A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot.
It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. It was not to save the human race. He didn't have the promise of eternal life on the right hand of God. He wasn't the messiah. He was just a good man. Yet I don't even know his name. Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.

I'm hoping that you can kind of see why I don't really understand why the Easter story is such a cornerstone of the Christian faith from this example.

Please don't think I'm being obtuse or trying to pick fights, I really do want to have what you people have got and to be able to take a leap of faith but this is 1 of many doubts/questions that I have.

Apologies as well for the length (if anyone is still reading...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

 

[ERice2nd]

He died to save us from ourselves, our sinful nature. Its our sinful nature that seperate us from God. He was sent to earth to be a sacrifice, not a martyr. It was his blood that cleansed the world of sin, his blood covers us so that we may stand in the presence of God (this is what baptism symbolises, I believe). God desires a close personal relationship with us, sin keeps us from that because with sin we would die in the presence of God. This is why Jesus died. All of us are sinners and all of us need Jesus as our saviour so that we may stand in the presence of God and witness his glory.

 

[cryforhelp]

He died to save us from ourselves, our sinful nature. Its our sinful nature that seperate us from God. He was sent to earth to be a sacrifice, not a martyr. It was his blood that cleansed the world of sin, his blood covers us so that we may stand in the presence of God (this is what baptism symbolises, I believe). God desires a close personal relationship with us, sin keeps us from that because with sin we would die in the presence of God. This is why Jesus died. All of us are sinners and all of us need Jesus as our saviour so that we may stand in the presence of God and witness his glory.

Sorry, theres too much symbolism in there. I appreciate you trying to help but talk of blood cleansing us and witnessing Gods glory is something I'm a long way from understanding. I'm still thinking in a non christian logical way at the moment and that just kind of confuses me. But thank you for your help.

 

[BelindaP]

I'll try to leave out the Christian symbolism here and use some of my own. Compared to the greatness of God, we are basically roaches.

So imagine if you have the life of a well-to-do human being, and your father told you that you could save roaches for eternity. You just had to go down into their world, live their life perfectly, and then be killed in some excruciating manner.

This was to done of your own free will. You could, at any time, call it off with a word. After all, they are just roaches. Having done so, you could resume your very nice life, with all its comforts. Meanwhile, the roach population on the earth would be destroyed, which would be a boon to everyone, anyway.

Oh yeah, during that whole time you would be plagued with the usual doubts that roaches encounter. How do you know that you're not delusional. How do you know that your father really wants you to do this? Are you sure that you care about roaches all that much anyway?

That's my best explanation for why it's so cool.

 

[cryforhelp]

cool. makes a bit more sense........ but that kind of suggests that Jesus thinks we are roaches..........
and whats wrong with roaches anyway?!?!

 

[BelindaP]

Yep, we are roaches. But He loves us anyway.

I'm a fan of Madagascar hissing cockroaches, but I think German cockroaches should be driven to extinction. [Gosh, I sure hope that Jesus doesn't think we're German cockroaches and have the same opinion! )

 

[cryforhelp]

wow you seem to have a pretty good knowledge of cockroaches. i just don't get the "love" thing in Christianity though
I've got a beautiful 4 year old boy and I love him like you wouldn;t believe - and yes, i truly believe I would die for him. but I don't understand the love Christians have for a God who is so confusing.

 

[BelindaP]

Well, I get confused sometimes while learning about Him. [It tends to be a problem with an invisible God.] However, the more I learn about Him, the less confused I get. I think you would find most Christians are like that. The ones that will confuse you the most are the younger (I'm referring to newly-minted) ones. That is because they spend a lot of time confused, too.

To help better understand what God did in sending Jesus, would you consider sending your son to save the roaches? To be fair, I'm not sure I would send my beautiful children, especially for those nasty German cockroaches .

 

[cryforhelp]

Well, I get confused sometimes while learning about Him. [It tends to be a problem with an invisible God.] However, the more I learn about Him, the less confused I get. I think you would find most Christians are like that. The ones that will confuse you the most are the younger (I'm referring to newly-minted) ones. That is because they spend a lot of time confused, too.

To help better understand what God did in sending Jesus, would you consider sending your son to save the roaches? To be fair, I'm not sure I would send my beautiful children, especially for those nasty German cockroaches .

hmmm. can't really go with the roach thing anymore. see, God is supposed to have made us in his own image and we are all his children and he loves us. if the roaches were all my children and i knew if i sent my son it would save my strange cockroach children things (whom i loved) and I would also get my son back (albeit after a truly awful time) I think yes, I would have to send my son. I'm not saying I'm Godlike in anyway and I hope it doesn't come across that way, but given the choice that God had, yes, I think I would do the same.

 

[BelindaP]

You're half-way there!

Yes, you are right. The parallel does break down on the whole made in the image thing.

 

[JonathanP]

Hi again

I will attempt an answer. Christ's death and resurrection was far more than the death of a martyr. It was a sacrifice on our behalf by God Himself. Although Jesus was perfectly righteous, He suffered a judgement He did not deserve so we would not have to.

The fall of man in Genesis 3, meant that all mankind descended from Adam and Eve were born outside of fellowship with God with a natural inclination to sin, and suffer both physical and spiritual death. Since God is holy He cannot ignore sin but must deal with it, He requires a sacrifice to atone (to pay the price) for sin in order to forgive us. Before the Cross, animal sacrifices had to be made to cover sins but they did not fully deal with the sin problem, and had to be continually repeated. Christ's death and resurrection has fully dealt with sin. We understand that He did this on our behalf so that therefore not only can we receive forgiveness as a result of the blood sacrifice, but we can also receive spiritual life through His resurrection. When Christians talk about being "born again" it refers to this spiritual life being given to us when we receive what He has done for us by faith. The key thing is to recognise that we have sinned and deserve judgement. In order to be saved we need to repent (that means to turn away) from our sin and then trust in what Jesus has done for us. So when Jesus died for us it was an amazing act of love (John 3:16).

I realise that this will probably trigger many other questions but I hope it helps. Let me say though that it is good to seek answers to questions we have but we do not need all the answers before believing. Some questions will be answered later, others will remain unanswered. I encourage you to take a step of faith. Maybe I will speak to you again but I need to go now.

blessings

Jonathan

 

[ERice2nd]

Thank you BelindaP, I was at a loss after my first post in this thread

 

[cryforhelp]

You're half-way there!

Yes, you are right. The parallel does break down on the whole made in the image thing.

so why can't this make sense without imagery? I understand a leap of faith is needed to a certain extent but I can't do it without having at least some kind of reason to jump.

 

[BelindaP]

You're welcome. Any time.

 

[Republic]

Hi cryforhelp,

I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.

Would you (who were innocent) become guilty and take the punishment rightly owing of the guilty man so that he could be pronounced "Not guilty"? That is in effect the Easter message. Jesus was condemned so that you wouldn't have to be.

And because He had foreknowledge about what would happen makes what Jesus did any less important or awe-inspiring? To me that makes absolutely no sense. The worst part of what Jesus went through wasn't the beatings, or the whippings, or the crown of thorns, or even being nailed to the cross, it was being separated from the Father spiritually to the point where Jesus cried out "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken me?" This was the only time in and before history when the relationship between the Father and the Son had been severed. That was the worst thing about what happened to Jesus, something that we cannot comprehend.

In fact, the Bible describes this as one of the worst consequences about being in hell - being eternally separated from God. Jesus had a taste of this when He took on the sins of the world and when God poured out His wrath upon His Son.

Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.

Actually, for many they believe they do. All Christians believe that once they die, they will enter the presence of God, the apostle Paul mentions this fact many times in his letters. Muslims have their own views which they believe fully to be true, same with atheists and others.

I also am unaware of many, if any, atheistic martyrs. Atheism is a religion hardly worth giving up one's life for as there's no hope or anything in it.

... A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot. ... It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. ...

As admirable as this action of bravery is of giving up his life for his friends, he did not have to go through what Jesus went through on the cross, not only the physical pain, but the torment of spiritual separation from the Father (which had never happened before) as the sins of the world were laid upon Him.

You see, Jesus didn't die for you while you were His friend, as that soldier did for his colleagues. Jesus died for you while you were His enemy because of your sin.

Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.

I really don't think that you have any idea of just what Jesus went through to purchase your salvation. I honestly don't think that I'll ever know how much it cost Him.

For one, the soldier's act of bravery (not martydom) only saved the lives of a few for a while, but Jesus' work took the sins of a God-wrath deserving world upon Himself (who was inocent and undeserving of God's wrath) such that through His death we could have life, abundant life in this world and eternal life in the next. He was condemned guilty so that we were announced, "Not guilty".

If dying for your friends is far braver and more noble, then just how much more is dying for undeserving and wicked enemies who justly deserved God's wrath because of their sins? How much more is it when that person is no less than God Himself? The humility, love, and grace shown by God to in effect become nothing and be completely humiliated by dying naked and bloodied on the cross for an undeserving people who rightly should have had God's wrath poured upon them instead taking their punishment on Himself (the innocent one) is incredible.

 

[Key]

Let me see if I can work with this for you.

Now you say, “You would send your son” to save the “roaches”, but would you send yourself to save all of them, knowing full well many of the roaches would not only kill you, and laugh at you, and take a level of joy from your death, torturing you and belittling you, as you died for them, to save them, they looked upon you not with thanks but with contempt and scorn, as your life drained from your body, painfully, defecating and urinating upon yourself while you hung from a tree waiting for your death.

Then after you did this, after the suffering, after the pain, (When Jesus came back he still had the Holes in his hands, Feet and Heart) your wounds would not heal, you would carry them, for however long, as a reminder of what you did for them. This was the price you would pay for what you had done.

Finally After a time you knew that a great many of them would continue to laugh and mock your efforts for them, the pain you suffered for them, would become a thing of no importance. Many would come and declare that you did not exist, and others would follow someone that “Would never do that from them” because God, would not do that.

You say you would die for your child, would you feel betrayed if as you took the shot that would have killed your son, and he turns to you and say “Ha, Fool, you’re a sucker for doing that” just before you finally died. But odd here, you say you would die for your son, and then say you would send your son to his death for some roaches because you cared about them, as if they were equal or better then your son.

So which is it? Would you die for your son, or kill him for some roaches?

Sounds confusing huh?

And we are just Humans, far more simple then God, and yet confusing at the same time.

Jesus came down willingly, knowing full well what he was to endure, it was not going to fast, it was not going to be easy, and it was for a many, not going to be appreciated, yet he still did it, to save the few that would follow him. Because, each one of us that follows him, was worth his pain, was worth his suffering.

To the God of all Creation, we were worth dieing for, so that we could be with him. And that is ALL Creation, not the “God of the Humans” this is the God of all, where our entire planet is not even a dot in the vastness of the universe that he Created.

And we were worth dieing for.

Take the solder you talked about, he knew that if no one stood forward, then they all would die, he would not add a day to his life not stepping forward, however, when he stepped forward, I bet everyone one of them, stood there in silence, awe struck at this mans sacrifice for them. They revered it and were thankful for it, for his death saved their lives that day.

Now imagine, Christ is that man, and then half the people in the prisoners (The people he was saving) laughed and jeered as he was shot. How would you view those that laughed and jeered at him, mocking his sacrifice, even if it was only for those few men.

God sees us do that, when we spend our lives away from him, mocking his sons death, a death that he took so that we could have salvation, if God had cared about us before, what then would this Creator of all, think of those that rejected his son. And yet, if at any time in our lives, we repent for our actions and accept his sons sacrifice, God will take us in, even after we may have said some truly horrible things about his son.

Jesus shoed us the weight of Sin, it was Death, and he took that Death for us, he came and showed us that not only could live by his own rules, (Which we all fail to do) but was also willing to show us, the weight of Sin, and the Freedom that he Offered us, what we truly were worth to him.

It’s not an easy Question, never was, but it is a powerful one.

I hope I have answered this question for you.

God Bless

Key

 

[Renton405]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for the title of this thread if it offends anyone by the apparant flippancy, but if you read on you'll see I have a genuine question.......

It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling martydom, but I can't see why this is seen to be so important.

If the story of the Gospels is true, then Jesus knew that he was going to be killed - in order to save everyone else in the world (if they choose to believe in him).
He also knew that there is life after death, because he is the son of God (and he is God, and the Holy Spirit?!?!?? - still not sure about the holy trinity thing, but thats another story).
And he also knew that he was going to be raised from the dead in 3 days.

I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.

Compare that to other martyrs and it doesn't seem such a big deal.

Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.

I remember hearing an example a few years back and I'm probably going to be wrong about some of the details but the point is still valid....

I think it was a prisoner of war camp in Japan during WWII and the Japanese lined all the prisoners up. Some food had gone missing and they were determined to find the culprit. The commandant (or whatever the boss was called, lets call him the commandant cos it sounds kind of prisoner of war-y) threatened to kill or severely punish (not sure?) everyone unless the thief owned up. No one moved. The commandant once again demanded that the culprit step forward. Again no one moved. A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot.
It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. It was not to save the human race. He didn't have the promise of eternal life on the right hand of God. He wasn't the messiah. He was just a good man. Yet I don't even know his name. Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.

I'm hoping that you can kind of see why I don't really understand why the Easter story is such a cornerstone of the Christian faith from this example.

Please don't think I'm being obtuse or trying to pick fights, I really do want to have what you people have got and to be able to take a leap of faith but this is 1 of many doubts/questions that I have.

Apologies as well for the length (if anyone is still reading...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

there is no greater love than for a person to lay down his life for his friends.. this is the reason why jesus had to die...The love during his passion is so intense that it cannot be compared to anything. He sacraficed himself for the whole world. So we would have the option not to worry about going to hell. It is truely the greatest gift from God ever. Without Jesus(The Suffering Servant) the world would be lost..

 

[Sephania]

Shalom Seeker,

I would just like to add to what some said here, Jesus did something no one else has ever done before he did or until now or the end of time. He did not just die a martyres death, for a martyr, when it comes down to it, doesn't have a choice and can't make it 'not happen', Jesus had the power to do that. He knew exactly when it should happen, he even waited patiently while Judas went back and told the authorities where he was, but only because Jesus told him to 'go do what you are going to do and do it quickly'.

His whole reason for leaving heaven and coming to earth was to accomplish this one thing. This one thing that was promised to happen four thousand years before in the garden of G-d. ( see Genesis 3:15)

So , he hung on a cross, so what? so did many others that went against the Roman Empire. So whats the big deal?

Let's ask one of the men who was hanging on the next cross over.

This is from the book of Luke:

32 Two other men, both criminals, were also led out with him to be executed. 33 When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

skipping down a few

39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

And yet there is more, they were indeed getting the punishment they deserved. In the book of Matthew it tells us that their crime was that they stole something. Now 'Do not steal' is one of the ten commandments, so to God that is a sin, but also to the heathen Romans it was a sin as well.

But Jesus didn't steal anything, nor commit any crime against God or man. Yet he was crucified with these other sinners, who were 'paying' for their crimes by dying on the cross. One felt his sin and asked forgiveness from Jesus, the other just mocked him and looked at what he was doing on the cross as trivial and died in his sin.


See, He who had no sin, took on not only the punishment for all the sins in the world, but they were actually put into his body. Now the only way I can make you understand this is if you have ever felt convicted of wrong doing.

Sin has weight to it, don't ask me to explain it, just think back to maybe when you were little and you took some money out of your mothers purse, or stole a girlie magazine of your fathers, or some such other thing and you were asked about it later, do you remember how you felt? Now times that by , well I can't imagine this figure and you probably can't either so to give you a little figures, here is the population for the past two thousand years (which is only 1/3 of what Jesus paid for)

World Population Growth

Year-------------Population

1000-------------275 million
1200-------------350 million
1500-------------450 million
1650-------------500 million
1750-------------700 million
1804-------------1 billion
1850-------------1.2 billion
1900-------------1.6 billion
1927-------------2 billion
1950-------------2.55 billion
1955-------------2.8 billion
1960-------------3 billion
1965-------------3.3 billion
1970-------------3.7 billion
1975-------------4 billion
1980-------------4.5 billion
1985-------------4.85 billion
1990-------------5.3 billion
1995-------------5.7 billion
1999-------------6 billion
2000-------------6.1 billion
2005-------------6.45 billion
2006-------------6.5 billion

That should give you some idea. Now the fact is, we ALL sin, some 'WE' consider greater than others and only some do people 'pay for ' by going to jail. But there are many others. But let us go with the first on Gods list.

He is God, the only God, who is holy and His name is Holy. Now how many people throughout history dissed him and cursed him etc? Yes, Jesus had to pay for each and every one of them, and feel what that felt like to do that sin. Now that may not mean anything to you so lets go to one that may. We will skip down to number 9, have you ever been lied to? Have you ever trusted someone , in the words they told you only to find out they were lying? Has anyone ever told you they loved you and then betrayed you? Have you ever been told that you would get something ( like your parents) or your boss telling you that you would get a raise and you didn't and someone else did? Remember how that felt?

That is what being sinned against feels like.

Now multiply that by the population. How about stealing? number 8? Has anyone ever stolen anything from you? That is a sin against you, again how did that feel? How about murder? now of course you don't know what it feels like to be murdered but I am sure you know someone or have seen someone who has lost a loved one that was murdered? I think you get the jist of where I am going. Now if you can,add up all these sins of each person that has ever existed and who ever will exist and try to comprehend what the weight of all those sins would feel like all at once.

I can't possibly imagine it, nor probably ever can, in this life anyway. But that is exactly what Jesus felt, and had put upon him, this is what truly caused his death. He was called the spotless lamb, who took on so many spots that there was nothing left. That is why he cried out, that is why God the father had to withdraw his spirit from him, as he has no part in sin.


The difference between that man in Japan and Jesus is that he was trying to prevent all of them dying for a false accusation of the sin of stealing food. Jesus on the other hand was dying for true accusations, true sins that all have commited. And he was not shot, he was humiliated, and beaten first within an inch of his life, this was to be the punishment, the Roman Empire usually didnt' do both, if you beat a man to within an inch of his life you don't get to hang him too , else he will expire too soon and your hanging lesson for all to learn doesn't last nearly as long, many hung for a week.

He is the spotless lamb that takes away the sins of the world!

Thank you Lord for loving me that much.

 

[cryforhelp]

Wow. Thank you. What an amazing answer. Really appreciate the time you put into that. Still confused about quite a lot of things but what you've said really makes a lot of sense.
Thanks again.........

and thanks to everyone else that answered too.

 

[ebia]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for the title of this thread if it offends anyone by the apparant flippancy, but if you read on you'll see I have a genuine question.......

It seems to me that Christians place a very high priority on the fact that Jesus, Son of God died on the cross to save mankind from sin.
It also seems that this is even more important because he is the son of God.
And even more so that he knew that he was sent to Earth to do exactly this.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not belittling martydom, but I can't see why this is seen to be so important.

If the story of the Gospels is true, then Jesus knew that he was going to be killed - in order to save everyone else in the world (if they choose to believe in him).
He also knew that there is life after death, because he is the son of God (and he is God, and the Holy Spirit?!?!?? - still not sure about the holy trinity thing, but thats another story).
And he also knew that he was going to be raised from the dead in 3 days.

I appreciate he knew that he was going to be put through excruciating pain and complete humilation, and it must have been a terrible ordeal (sorry about the flippancy again but couldn't think of a better way to put it). But still, he knew, beyond a doubt that what he was doing would save mankind and that he would be in heaven with his father within weeks.

Compare that to other martyrs and it doesn't seem such a big deal.

Other Martyrs, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddists or Atheists have no such absolute knowledge in what comes next.

I remember hearing an example a few years back and I'm probably going to be wrong about some of the details but the point is still valid....

I think it was a prisoner of war camp in Japan during WWII and the Japanese lined all the prisoners up. Some food had gone missing and they were determined to find the culprit. The commandant (or whatever the boss was called, lets call him the commandant cos it sounds kind of prisoner of war-y) threatened to kill or severely punish (not sure?) everyone unless the thief owned up. No one moved. The commandant once again demanded that the culprit step forward. Again no one moved. A third and final warning was given and a man stepped forward, knowing that the punishment wouyd be death. And indeed, he was shot.
It turned out that no food had been stolen, it had simply been a mis count, but this man gave his life to save others, not knowing what would come next. It was not to save the human race. He didn't have the promise of eternal life on the right hand of God. He wasn't the messiah. He was just a good man. Yet I don't even know his name. Why is his act of Martydom less important when it was, in my opinion a far braver and noble thing to do.

I'm hoping that you can kind of see why I don't really understand why the Easter story is such a cornerstone of the Christian faith from this example.

Please don't think I'm being obtuse or trying to pick fights, I really do want to have what you people have got and to be able to take a leap of faith but this is 1 of many doubts/questions that I have.

Apologies as well for the length (if anyone is still reading...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz)

I think part of the problem here is considering the crucifixion on it's own as the central issue, when it only makes sense within the context of whole incarnation-crucifixion-resurrection narative.

Christ's self-sacrifice on it's own would be worthless. It's value only exists when it comes at the end of the incarnation - God placing aside his glory to come and live with us and experiencing all the difficulties that entails for 30 odd years. And it's only effective because it's followed by the resurrection, by which death is defeated for everyone.

If you just look at Jesus as a man who allowed himself to be crucified then you are missing most of the picture, so you can't see the difference between that and (say) a bishop Polycarp.

Finally, it should also be noted that we don't really know how well Jesus understood what would happen to him. Obviously from his comments he had some idea, but he had also laid aside his omniscence so we don't really know how clearly he understood it before it happened. I would suggest that he didn't much idea of what would happen. No more so, anyway, than say bishop Polycarp who knew that his risen Christ would raise him after his martyrdom.