Jesus did not do away with the law in Mat 5:17

[fhansen]

In Luke 7:50, Jesus says to the woman that her faith has saved her. Without faith one cannot have Christian love. Faith comes before love

Well, yes, that's what I said. The question is whether or not that faith-born love is separable from faith and whether or not it's necessary. Because that love, especially, defines -and compels- obedience and righteousness or man. And both faith and love along with hope are all gifts of grace- and choices of ours to accept those gifts and act upon them.

The important thing regards God's plan for us with the new covenant, of course. What does justification entail? We're freely justified as we turn to Him in faith. And if that results in love, as per Rom 5:5, for example, then this righteousness is surely more than social convention, etc. It's the "righteousness of God", the "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3). So, now justified, how will we live our lives, what will we do with the gifts given? Again, the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.

IOW, what's the purpose of faith? Does faith, by itself, separate us from the requirement to be righteous? Or does it finally lead to accomplishing that very thing by virtue of establishing union with the Source of righteousness? I'd submit that this union, itself, is the essence of righteousness for men. It's the bond that Adam broke with God. And that bond was always meant to be cultivated and strengthened by our drawing nearer to God. Adam chose a separate route, away from God. Jesus puts us back on the right path, and we must remain on it, by remaining in Him, Born out by how we live our lives.

"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God and they will be my people." Jer 31

 

[Teofrastus]

Well, yes, that's what I said. The question is whether or not that faith-born love is separable from faith and whether or not it's necessary. Because that love, especially, defines -and compels- obedience and righteousness or man. And both faith and love along with hope are all gifts of grace- and choices of ours to accept those gifts and act upon them.

The important thing regards God's plan for us with the new covenant, of course. What does justification entail? We're freely justified as we turn to Him in faith. And if that results in love, as per Rom 5:5, for example, then this righteousness is surely more than social convention, etc. It's the "righteousness of God", the "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3). So, now justified, how will we live our lives, what will we do with the gifts given? Again, the Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.

IOW, what's the purpose of faith? Does faith, by itself, separate us from the requirement to be righteous? Or does it finally lead to accomplishing that very thing by virtue of establishing union with the Source of righteousness? I'd submit that this union, itself, is the essence of righteousness for men. It's the bond that Adam broke with God. And that bond was always meant to be cultivated and strengthened by our drawing nearer to God. Adam chose a separate route, away from God. Jesus puts us back on the right path, and we must remain on it, by remaining in Him, Born out by how we live our lives.

"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God and they will be my people." Jer 31

But what is this righteous Christian life in self-giving love supposed to look like? I pay my taxes and so forth. I pull my straw to the anthill. I can't do much more. The Christian person has given up the myth of the ideal society. Instead, his life is hidden in Christ. That's why Jesus cautions us "not to resist evil." We must only do what is humanly possible. Thus, we mustn't attempt to eradicate evil from society. It only makes matters worse. Augustine is clear about this. In The City of God, he repudiates utopianism.

I am perplexed by this "goodness" that Christians strive for. I don't understand what they mean. What's so difficult about treating all people with respect, not taking drugs, not drinking heavily, not visiting prostitutes, etc.? Do Christians find it hard to act according to basic decency? Is this why they are so obsessed with how to be a moral person?

 

[fhansen]

But what is this righteous Christian life in self-giving love supposed to look like? I pay my taxes and so forth. I pull my straw to the anthill. I can't do much more. The Christian person has given up the myth of the ideal society. Instead, his life is hidden in Christ. That's why Jesus cautions us "not to resist evil." We must only do what is humanly possible. Thus, we mustn't attempt to eradicate evil from society. It only makes matters worse. Augustine is clear about this. In The City of God, he repudiates utopianism.

I am perplexed by this "goodness" that Christians strive for. I don't understand what they mean. What's so difficult about treating all people with respect, not taking drugs, not drinking heavily, not visiting prostitutes, etc.? Do Christians find it hard to act according to basic decency? Is this why they are so obsessed with how to be a moral person?

Well, maybe I've run with a rougher crowd at times but in any case, Jesus said He didn't come to heal the healthy but the sick. And the bible frequently warns previously sick believers not to return to their sickness. And we know that those who're forgiven much, love much.

Christian goodness or righteousness can be defined by love, and described by the natural acts or fruits of that love. We're to be improved versions of ourselves prior to meeting Christ. And the world should be an overall better place because of that change. Anyway, Augustine had this to say:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And Paul,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 8:4

The whole purpose of Christianity is to restore and increase justice/righteousness to God's wayward creation- to us-to ultimately produce something, something grand and noble and good even as man started out in Eden stumbling and falling right out of the gate. The other option is merely Him saving nothing, with creation otherwise remaining in their fallen condition for all practical purposes. So, for example:

Prior to Christianity the world was generally dog eat dog, eye for an eye, with more emphasis laid on conquering and vanquishing one’s enemy than on loving him, or forgiving him. Altruism rarely raised its head based on any moral standards of the day. It’s generally accepted that early on Christians invented hospitals, hospitals that not only served Christians but also non-Christians and even their enemies, to the amazement of the surrounding population. Christianity developed our educational systems, lower as well as the upper, university system, built thousands of orphanages, donated countless hours of volunteer work and amounts of money to feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, taking care of the sick, providing relief efforts while sharing the good news-of a God of light and order and hope and love to a dark and chaotic, hopeless and often loveless world. Any other “gods” were quite whimsical back in the day. Whole orders were set up just to serve the poor, inspired by the gospel. Additionally, the promotion of the arts and sciences and the pursuit of excellence in general are all part of the legacy. Modern concerns for matters of social justice were inspired, consciously or not, by Christian values. The western world, and therefore the whole world, would look very different today without the positive impact Christianity has had on it, with better ways of living in the here and now always aspired to and discovered, together with confidence in the next life, giving meaning to it all.

We should not only pray for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven but to want it, to work for it, with ourselves as His hands and feet; His will becoming our desire. Christian love, by its nature, compels helping our neighbor regardless of whether or not we hold to Christian utopianism or the realization of God’s kingdom on earth. Our new lives begin now either way!

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James 2:14-17

“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

Some have reduced the gospel to a sort of intellectual concept or formula whereby as long as we only grasp and profess to believe a certain set of proposed truths, or perceive ourselves to be trusting in God, then we’re saved, nothing else required. Righteousness is no longer an issue with this scenario; faith, itself, is the only righteousness. But, in truth, faith is only the beginning, of a journey, that first places us in right stead and union with God, which is man's basic state of justice in itself. There’s no argument about whether or not the gift is free and unmerited-it is. The argument involves what justification means. Justification is relationship with God, established by faith, with the seed of His own life now planted within you. Whether or not we continue in that relationship, taking it seriously, is made evident by the fruit in our lives, how much we’ve become transformed into His image. We can dismiss, ignore, trample on and reject the free gift at any time.

Faith without works is dead only because faith without love is dead. And love is to be our righteousness as God, its source, is our righteousness.

 

[Teofrastus]

Well, maybe I've run with a rougher crowd at times but in any case, Jesus said He didn't come to heal the healthy but the sick. And the bible frequently warns previously sick believers not to return to their sickness. And we know that those who're forgiven much, love much.

Christian goodness or righteousness can be defined by love, and described by the natural acts or fruits of that love. We're to be improved versions of ourselves prior to meeting Christ. And the world should be an overall better place because of that change. Anyway, Augustine had this to say:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

And Paul,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 8:4

The whole purpose of Christianity is to restore and increase justice/righteousness to God's wayward creation- to us-to ultimately produce something, something grand and noble and good even as man started out in Eden stumbling and falling right out of the gate. The other option is merely Him saving nothing, with creation otherwise remaining in their fallen condition for all practical purposes. So, for example:

Prior to Christianity the world was generally dog eat dog, eye for an eye, with more emphasis laid on conquering and vanquishing one’s enemy than on loving him, or forgiving him. Altruism rarely raised its head based on any moral standards of the day. It’s generally accepted that early on Christians invented hospitals, hospitals that not only served Christians but also non-Christians and even their enemies, to the amazement of the surrounding population. Christianity developed our educational systems, lower as well as the upper, university system, built thousands of orphanages, donated countless hours of volunteer work and amounts of money to feeding the hungry and clothing the naked, visiting those in prison, taking care of the sick, providing relief efforts while sharing the good news-of a God of light and order and hope and love to a dark and chaotic, hopeless and often loveless world. Any other “gods” were quite whimsical back in the day. Whole orders were set up just to serve the poor, inspired by the gospel. Additionally, the promotion of the arts and sciences and the pursuit of excellence in general are all part of the legacy. Modern concerns for matters of social justice were inspired, consciously or not, by Christian values. The western world, and therefore the whole world, would look very different today without the positive impact Christianity has had on it, with better ways of living in the here and now always aspired to and discovered, together with confidence in the next life, giving meaning to it all.

We should not only pray for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven but to want it, to work for it, with ourselves as His hands and feet; His will becoming our desire. Christian love, by its nature, compels helping our neighbor regardless of whether or not we hold to Christian utopianism or the realization of God’s kingdom on earth. Our new lives begin now either way!

“What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James 2:14-17

“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Gal 5:6

Some have reduced the gospel to a sort of intellectual concept or formula whereby as long as we only grasp and profess to believe a certain set of proposed truths, or perceive ourselves to be trusting in God, then we’re saved, nothing else required. Righteousness is no longer an issue with this scenario; faith, itself, is the only righteousness. But, in truth, faith is only the beginning, of a journey, that first places us in right stead and union with God, which is man's basic state of justice in itself. There’s no argument about whether or not the gift is free and unmerited-it is. The argument involves what justification means. Justification is relationship with God, established by faith, with the seed of His own life now planted within you. Whether or not we continue in that relationship, taking it seriously, is made evident by the fruit in our lives, how much we’ve become transformed into His image. We can dismiss, ignore, trample on and reject the free gift at any time.

Faith without works is dead only because faith without love is dead. And love is to be our righteousness as God, its source, is our righteousness.

Yes, Christian goodness is defined by love. Why do Christians say this? It's because we cannot expect that a set of rules can guide us. Nevertheless, "cultural Christians" still think so, after 2000 years. What is "good"? Would it be good to murder Hitler if one got the chance? Dietrich Bonhoeffer was executed for participating in a conspiracy to murder Hitler (Bonhoeffer Torch | Angel Studios). We still don't know if it's true. But it is not unthinkable, despite the fact that he was a Lutheran priest.

We don't know what is "good." This is our problem. So, we must be guided by the Holy Spirit. I am not an antinominalist. The Law exists and we must follow it, and every iota of it. But we cannot read the statutes, because we see only through a "glass darkly." This is when faith awakens, as the only way out of the dilemma. Faith allows us, again and again, to escape the stifling reality of the Law and the demand to be "good." This, I think, is congenial with Luther's view.

Why does Jesus say, in Matthew 5:18, that not one jot will pass from the law? It's because he will not institute a new religion of the old type, i.e., yet another legalistic religion. Instead, the law must remain as an oppressive power that gives people no other choice than to turn to faith as the only way of salvation. When the Christian realizes that he is free of the yoke of the Law, then the light of faith shines into his soul.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, Christian goodness is defined by love. Why do Christians say this? It's because we cannot expect that a set of rules can guide us. Nevertheless, "cultural Christians" still think so, after 2000 years. What is "good"? Would it be good to murder Hitler if one got the chance? Dietrich Bonhoeffer was executed for participating in a conspiracy to murder Hitler (Bonhoeffer Torch | Angel Studios). We still don't know if it's true. But it is not unthinkable, despite the fact that he was a Lutheran priest.

We don't know what is "good." This is our problem. So, we must be guided by the Holy Spirit. I am not an antinominalist. The Law exists and we must follow it, and every iota of it. But we cannot read the statutes, because we see only through a "glass darkly." This is when faith awakens, as the only way out of the dilemma. Faith allows us, again and again, to escape the stifling reality of the Law and the demand to be "good." This, I think, is congenial with Luther's view.

Why does Jesus say, in Matthew 5:18, that not one jot will pass from the law? It's because he will not institute a new religion of the old type, i.e., yet another legalistic religion. Instead, the law must remain as an oppressive power that gives people no other choice than to turn to faith as the only way of salvation. When the Christian realizes that he is free of the yoke of the Law, then the light of faith shines into his soul.

As I understand it, the new covenant makes it possible to accomplish what the old could not: obedience/righteousness/doing God’s will. As you understand it, apparently, the new covenant makes it ok to fail at that. So in my understanding faith, as it brings us near to God, opens the door to the life of grace, His life. It's ok to be righteous, really. We just need Him in order to be able to do it.

 

[Teofrastus]

As I understand it, the new covenant makes it possible to accomplish what the old could not: obedience/righteousness/doing God’s will. As you understand it, apparently, the new covenant makes it ok to fail at that. So in my understanding faith, as it brings us near to God, opens the door to the life of grace, His life. It's ok to be righteous, really. We just need Him in order to be able to do it.

You are in pursuit of an illusion. You cannot be good and accomplish "obedience/righteousness/doing God's will." For example, foreign aid only leads to more mouths to feed, and it promotes corruption and dependence. It's because "the law of sin and death" governs this world. According to the laws of thermodynamics, creation of order requires the creation of an even greater amount of disorder. This is why the state of entropy of the entire universe always increases over time. Life and perfection require an even greater amount of death and corruption.

Whatever we do in the worldly domain, it also has evil consequences. Biological life builds on murder, and thus we are all murderers. We love medieval cathedrals; but the building of them caused horrible damage, such as deforestation. Many people died in the process. Erosion from deforestation caused the rivers to become polluted. Trout and salmon disappeared from the rivers of Europe.

Whatever we do, it has evil consequences. People who refuse to see this, thinking they are good, become more and more evil with time. The Swedish Lutheran Church always takes the top position as the worst workplace in Sweden, in a survey that takes place regularly. People have been driven to suicide.

To be righteous means to project evil on others. It is formally the same as the laws of thermodynamics. Order (good) is maintained by exporting disorder (evil). People who see themselves as righteous are really evil. Their evil comes from the fact that they continually export evil. It is necessary to identify evil in order to remain "other" than evil. This is the damnation caused by "the knowledge of good and evil." People get caught in a double bind. No matter what they do, sin will increase. "Good people" are turned-on by evil. They see evil, and they attack it, causing great evil.

I am not relativizing good and evil. After all, order and disorder, good and evil, do exist. But we cannot get out of the double bind. If we do good, then evil is created behind our back: "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me" (Rom. 7:21, KJV). Unlike what the Manichaeans thought, good and evil are interconnected, as are order and disorder. As Augustine explains, they are not like two forces that are battling it out. Rather, Luther finds that God takes the devil into his service. "Who are you then?" asks Faust. Mephistopheles replies: "I am part of that power which eternally wills evil and eternally works good" (Goethe, "Faust", Pt. 1).

As Luther explains, the law is everything that bears down on us. The law binds and oppresses us ("Thou shalt..."). Here is where faith comes in as the only way out of the double bind. We are no longer "under the law" (Rom. 6:14, NIV). It means that good and evil play no role for us. We only play along during our pilgrimage on earth. Social life is merely a matter of pretense. To the Christian, nothing really matters, because the whole of Creation rests safely in the lap of God.

Paul says: "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery" (Gal. 5:1, ESV). This is the reason why the call to freedom brings into question participation in all established roles of society (1 Cor. 7:29-31). We mustn't understand the Pauline saying that "this world in its present form is passing away" (ibid.) as misconceived apocalyptic expectation. For the Christian, this is always happening, here and now. The Kingdom of God is already among us, says Jesus (Luke 17:21). Thus, there is nothing to "accomplish." If we think so, we lose faith and are kicked out of the Kingdom.

In pagan times, people thought that trees, tornadoes and earthquakes were divine manifestations. Today, we no longer think of them as gods. They exist anyway. However, there are two pagan gods that we still believe in, and this is "the good god" and "the evil god." Christians refuse to abandon the concept of good and evil as divine manifestations. It is the last remnant of paganism that Christians are stuck with. It has caused many a Christian to regress to something akin to Manichaeism. But good and evil, order and disorder, aren't divine. They exist anyway.

In the earthly realm we create evil by being good and good by being evil, and thus we cannot accomplish divine righteousness on earth. Nothing divine exists in the sublunar realm. "Divine good" has not an immanent dimension, which is why we accomplish nothing by pursuing it. To think so is the last remnant of pagan immanentism. Too many Christians cling to this straw instead of giving themselves up to faith.

 

[fhansen]

To be righteous means to project evil on others.

Nah, to be righteous is to simply identify the truth, which is that good and evil exist, and to choose the good instead while now acknowledging that God is essential in our overcoming that evil. Sorry if that steps on the toes of anyone who may wish to remain in their sin-or believe they have no choice- but Jesus never condoned evil but always forgave it as we’re willing to acknowledge - and turn from it.
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of Gid are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

While Luther had a good point or two I’m increasingly convinced that he desperately grasped onto not much more than an intellectual concept, gleaned Inappropriately from the Bible, as a means to salve his painful over-scrupulosity, coming up with the “Chill, dude”, theology, “It’s all good, just believe your sins are forgiven and they are; there’s no reason to fight against them.”

Yes, this world is corrupted, but God is not, and by entering the world He brought grace to the table: divinity, incorruption, life, enters the world of man. It’s ours to accept, or not. That’s grace, not only forgiving but restoring, overcoming, growing us into the purpose we were created for.

If sin is impossible to overcome, that renders the concept of sin, of evil, meaningless. There was no reason to kick man out of Eden, no reason to hold him accountable, no reason for a world to exist that’s been filled with horrendous evils and victimization, and no reason to expect that heaven should be any better than hell.

 

[Teofrastus]

Nah, to be righteous is to simply identify the truth, which is that good and evil exist, and to choose the good instead while now acknowledging that God is essential in our overcoming that evil. Sorry if that steps on the toes of anyone who may wish to remain in their sin-or believe they have no choice- but Jesus never condoned evil but always forgave it as we’re willing to acknowledge - and turn from it.
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of Gid are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

While Luther had a good point or two I’m increasingly convinced that he desperately grasped onto not much more than an intellectual concept, gleaned Inappropriately from the Bible, as a means to salve his painful over-scrupulosity, coming up with the “Chill, dude”, theology, “It’s all good, just believe your sins are forgiven and they are; there’s no reason to fight against them.”

Yes, this world is corrupted, but God is not, and by entering the world He brought grace to the table: divinity, incorruption, life, enters the world of man. It’s ours to accept, or not. That’s grace, not only forgiving but restoring, overcoming, growing us into the purpose we were created for.

If sin is impossible to overcome, that renders the concept of sin, of evil, meaningless. There was no reason to kick man out of Eden, no reason to hold him accountable, no reason for a world to exist that’s been filled with horrendous evils and victimization, and no reason to expect that heaven should be any better than hell.

Try to understand what "living according to the flesh" means. It means worldliness. It means living according to power and meaning and to strive for "the good," however we understand that word. To live by faith means to jump off that train. In Christ we have died from that body of sin. Jesus showed us that the passion of faith is the source of the new life. We can become void of sin only if we leave behind the dichotomies of good and evil, sin and righteousness. This is the only way of understanding Paul's words. This is what it means to be meek, patient, and forbearing, in love born of freedom. Paul Hessert says:

To be free is not to have our choice of possibilities, but to be released from the compulsion to remake everything and everyone (especially ourselves) in the evanescent image of an ideal. To be free is to live in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3). ("Christ And The End of Meaning", p. 216)​

Christ crucified is an anomaly. It cannot be fitted into any cultural/religious system of meaning, and this is the point. The message is that we should get out of it. Yet, we must continue to play the game of social life, but only as pilgrims, as passersby.

 

[fhansen]

Try to understand what "living according to the flesh" means. It means worldliness. It means living according to power and meaning and to strive for "the good," however we understand that word. To live by faith means to jump off that train. In Christ we have died from that body of sin. Jesus showed us that the passion of faith is the source of the new life. We can become void of sin only if we leave behind the dichotomies of good and evil, sin and righteousness. This is the only way of understanding Paul's words. This is what it means to be meek, patient, and forbearing, in love born of freedom. Paul Hessert says:

To be free is not to have our choice of possibilities, but to be released from the compulsion to remake everything and everyone (especially ourselves) in the evanescent image of an ideal. To be free is to live in the bond of peace (Eph. 4:3). ("Christ And The End of Meaning", p. 216)​

Christ crucified is an anomaly. It cannot be fitted into any cultural/religious system of meaning, and this is the point. The message is that we should get out of it. Yet, we must continue to play the game of social life, but only as pilgrims, as passersby.

Ok, it sounds like a "side-benefit" of faith here might still be righteousness even without our aspiring to said righteousness. And I have no problem with that. We should aspire to God, as the object of our faith, and let that lead where it may. But to get from point A to point B may well first involve the knowledge of sin, and the frustration at overcoming it, and the repentance of it as we turn to Him for the solution to it. And if that just happens to make us right in His eyes, as obedience and the overcoming of sin happen to result, then so be it. He's the Boss.

I agree that human self-righteousness is actually the problem, an ugly one. But I don't believe the new covenant does away with the obligation to be righteous. but gives man a God-given righteousness instead, the real thing, what we were made for. We weren't made to sin. You're saying we should do away with our need to be right-and I agree-again, that's our basic problem, one that actually separates us from God. But for me that's a need to be individually right: me, myself, and I, apart from God.-and that constitutes the basic sin or injustice of fallen man.

I think what I'm saying is that there's more to it then giving up the negative, the pride and self-righteousness that divides us from the other by asserting our moral superiority over the other. I think the another aspect of our faith is in gaining the positive, that it gives us the humility and love to actually begin to treat the other right, as we would have them treat us, to forgive, to heal, to make peace, to care for, feed, clothe, etc. Not for expediency or practical reasons, but because we're compelled to for the right reasons now.