Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

Mountainmanbob said:

That I think is a terrible thing to say.
M-Bob

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You're the one who said:

"Jacob I loved
Esaw I hated

This is while they were still in their mothers womb."

So God hated baby Esau, eh?

dhh712 said:

A few things that kind of misrepresent the truth: Yes, babies do deserve to go to hell because *everyone* deserves to go to hell. Everyone has a choice and without God's saving grace they choose rebellion against God. We are enslaved to the will of our sinful nature and we can't change it without the miracle of God's saving power.

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How can anyone deserve to go to hell in Calvinism? No created being has a free choice in how they were made or in anything. God is the one who is responsible for the way things are & all the evils that ever happened throughout history. Man is fated to his destiny & there's nothing he can do about it, whether it's hell or heaven forever. It's fatalism. Such a God is infinitely worse than Hitler or even Satan.

Mountainmanbob said:

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

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Not everyone in the world will be saved; that would be universalism.
Yet Jesus died for the world - John 3:16.

Mountainmanbob said:

That would be the world of believers not everyone in the world.

I just don't think that Hitler will be there.

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If he ever heard the Gospel and KNEW God's love, he rejected it.
If he honestly never heard the Gospel, he would be judged on what he knew and what he'd done. So either way, probably not.

That doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die for him and wouldn't have saved him if he'd repented.

Mountainmanbob said:

Jacob I loved
Esaw I hated

This is while they were still in their mothers womb.

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This means that God chose Jacob and not Esau.
According to the way they thought at the time, chosen by God = loved by God; not chosen by God = hated by God.

God IS love. He hates sin, but not people.

Jesus died for everyone. But God will choose only few as God knows their hearts and knows that they will accept him. God will make them strong in faith. But God wants everyone to be saved. Those who are chosen by God should spread the Gospel and take the responsibility to build faith in others who are not saved

Mountainmanbob said:

It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world

M-Bob

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And if a person really seeks for real God, then Jesus will directly or indirectly talk to him. As the person is seeking God really, he will hear God words

Not everyone in the world are true seekers in true God. Jesus will not make any attempt to talk to them. But it is our responsibility to spread the Gospel to them

If they accept Jesus thru us, then Jesus will talk to them

bangmegafan said:

And if a person really seeks for real God

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Who seeks God?

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good," (Romans 3:10-12)

bangmegafan said:

Not everyone in the world are true seekers in true God.

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The percentage is a bit higher than that.

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good," (Romans 3:10-12)

bangmegafan said:

If they accept Jesus thru us, then Jesus will talk to them

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It works completely the other way around. Jesus speaks - His sheep follow.

Thedictator said:

There is no logic in Calvinism, It is the raving of a mad man named John Calvin. I follow no man, but only the Word of God.

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I wasn't aware that you thought Calvinism was an invention of John Calvin. Calvinism is part of the Reformed doctrine which is calvinistic in that we believe God's word reveals to us that he is sovereign over all things, including man's salvation. The Reformed doctrine came about by the study of many, many biblical scholars who came together to determine what it actually was which God's word said since the Roman church obscured this by having it's members not able to understand the word preached since it was given in a language not understood by the people.

I'm no biblical scholar. I don't have the mental capacity to study the original languages and then take years to dissect the Bible to determine what it says. That's why we have teachers who are to explain these things to us. If we go at it by ourselves, we can come up with dozens of interpretations each of us came up with individually. Sure we can trust that a spirit is guiding us, but are we sure that it is the Holy Spirit? And it might be, since the only necessary doctrine of salvation is that Jesus Christ died for sinners by dying as a sacrifice on the cross. That's it. The rest is gray area, though some seems to be a darker almost black than others.

Personally I don't know how anyone can maintain an active, full faith without the reformed doctrine. But then that's me. I can't judge anyone else's heart, only God can do that. My understanding is that the doctrines tell us about Jesus, what we are to understand about him. I've tried reading the Bible under a non-reformed pastor and believed I did have faith at one time. In a short while I fell away from that and turned to the world and atheism. It made more sense. Years later the Lord led me to study the Westminster Confessions of Faith and for the first time I met Jesus in God's revealed word.

Is that the correct interpretation of the Bible? I fervently believe there can only be one correct interpretation and I do believe the reformed doctrine is the one, but I'd have to point you to biblical scholars for proof of that. Like I said, I'm no biblical scholar and struggle to remember verses, which ones say which. I trust in Jesus, in his finished work on the cross, and not my understanding of doctrines. We aren't given, thank the Lord, a doctrinal exam after we die.

The Lord has granted me a growing faith, an active one which ebbs and flows but that I trust he will finish the work he has begun--and I believe he has done this through the secondary means of my understanding of the reformed doctrine. I think, and I may be wrong, that if I had come to an understanding different from the reformed one I would have fallen away again like I did the last time I thought I knew and believed upon Jesus.

I will give you this though, my husband who first converted into the charismatic denomination, decided to learn the original languages and study the Bible in depth for some years and he came away with the understanding of the reformed doctrine. Me, I will trust biblical scholars that have had years of studying the Bible and knowledge of the original language before my own weak grasp of something so complex as biblical doctrine. That's just the trust for doctrine however, and like I said it is Jesus whom my faith rests upon.

The contention between brethren in Christ I do not care for, however and try to stay away from arguments. If we start saying there are other ways to God besides Jesus or that the Bible is not the word of God, then we've got a problem--that's a different God we worship then. Yet, if someone wants to believe God is not entirely sovereign or have rock-band music in church, then okay--I think it's definitely wrong but let's put these differences aside and praise the Lord Jesus for taking away our sins. Let us sing praises to glorify the blessed mercy of God! We don't have to and should not compromise on our doctrinal beliefs, but let us not strive against and contend against each other. That is the devil amongst us. Rather we should enjoy a sweet harmony and fellowship together with the Lord Jesus.

That is all I've come to say since I went to sleep last night and will put forth no more arguments. I wish all the best in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thedictator said:

There is no logic in Calvinism, It is the raving of a mad man named John Calvin. I follow no man, but only the Word of God.

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If you are going to make such statements, you should at least do so after understanding what you oppose. Bearing false witness is on the naughty list, you know.

Try sitting down with a nice cup of tea (tea makes everything better, doesn't it?) and read The Institutes of the Christian Religion. Heres a free copy: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

When you have finished, please post any and all evidence of the supposed madness of John Calvin. I'm all ears.

In the parable of the wheat and the tares, a farmer planted wheat in his field. At first there were green shoots everywhere and everything seemed fine. After awhile, the farmer realized some of the plants were wheat and other plants were grassy weeds. In Israel there is a species of grassy weed (tares) that is toxic to animals and cannot be used as fodder. During the harvest time the reapers were asked to separate the wheat from the tares as the wheat is highly valued and the tares may only be used as fuel for fire or burnt to ashes for fertilizer.

God will keep the good and the evil will pass away during the day of judgement. Hell can not last for eternity. There are already complaints about why God allows evil to happen. Do not think God will preserve the causes of crime, terror, torture, disease, starvation and chaos for an eternity. In 2 Peter 3 it is written this world is reserved for fire and destruction during the day of judgement.

CHRIST did not come to bring peace

HE also said "For judgement I have come...."

CHRIST addressed two groups of people:

In John 8 HE addressed those who did not believe in HIM:

HE said you can not follow ME. Where I am going you can not come. And if you do not believe I AM HE, Ye shall die in your sins

In John 13 HE addressed HIS DISCIPLES:

HE said you can not follow ME ...now

But you will Later

And when HIS DISCIPLE said (how can we follow you) we don't know THE WAY

HE said I AM THE WAY. No man comes to THE FATHER except through ME

Mountainmanbob said:

God talks about hardening some hearts.
I don't think these have the ability to repent.

M-Bob

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"And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled"

Otherwise they would have turned and HE would have healed them

Mountainmanbob said:

God talks about hardening some hearts.
I don't think these have the ability to repent.

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If they've constantly ignored God, continued to sin and not taken any opportunities to hear the Gospel and seek forgiveness; possibly not.

But I don't believe that God, who is love, could create someone in his own image and yet choose, want or plan to send them to hell, without ever knowing the One who made them. Why would he?

Mountainmanbob said:

It's not good to question God?

Possibly the best prayer oh God please have mercy on me a sinner but how many will truly get to that point?

M-Bob

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Those who do not look up when evil runs rampant and curse/blame their GOD and king but repent and wait for THE LORD

In that day?

Anyone who calls on the NAME of THE LORD will be saved

I can't disagree with you as you have quoted verses from bible to answer my questions. Thanks. However, I still have below questions

1. You said none of us will actually seek God. But actually there are many people who don't know Jesus but seek God. For example, India there are many saints who go to Himalayas and spend their whole life there in meditation. There are many people who are true seekers are of God but they didn't know Jesus
2.You saidJesus talks to everyone but onlyHis sheep follows Him.Then why therea re many really don't know who is Jesus

jimmyjimmy said:

Who seeks God?

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good," (Romans 3:10-12)



The percentage is a bit higher than that.

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good," (Romans 3:10-12)



It works completely the other way around. Jesus speaks - His sheep follow.

The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”​

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bangmegafan said:

I can't disagree with you as you have quoted verses from bible to answer my questions. Thanks. However, I still have below questions

1. You said none of us will actually seek God. But actually there are many people who don't know Jesus but seek God. For example, India there are many saints who go to Himalayas and spend their whole life there in meditation. There are many people who are true seekers are of God but they didn't know Jesus
2.You saidJesus talks to everyone but onlyHis sheep follows Him.Then why therea re many really don't know who is Jesus

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Do they know or have heard of JESUS but still seek outside of that suggestion?