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Without faith it is impossible to please GODOkay, then I also agree with you with second point and I think I said same in my earlier post. I also believe Jesus reads other's heart before calling him. I said exactly same.
In first point, you said criminal can't seek God. I'm confused. Since my childhood, I practiced many methods and read many books from my born religion (hindu) to seek God. And I know I'm sinner.
I have learned some meditation and practiced. That didn't help. Then I went to ISKCON template chanted harekrishna mantra somewhere around 1000 times a day for few months. That didn't help.
After that I have received dream from Jesus where he called me from ship. I didn't go. Later, one more thing like that happened. I have simply ignored at that time, after some point of time I have temporarily accepted Jesus. I didn't know much about him. Now, I have completely accepted Him.
Here, I believe without seeking God since childhood, Jesus couldn't have shown his grace on me.
Yes that is trueJohn 6:44-46 "44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’d Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— 46not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who is from God; only He has seen the Father."
And John 6:65 "65Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.”"
Seems like it's not *YOUR* offer to make.
Yes.The mystery, that had be predestined from the beginning and was hidden in the OT scriptures, was that the Gentiles were also predestined to be God's chosen people. Two flocks united in Christ, the One Seed, Jew and Gentile.
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Then we can always remind that the kingdom belongs to "such as these"The problem is that they will say that David's son was one of the chosen ones and not all babies are chosen.
And we have been shown by God himself exactly *how* he "deals with sin and rebellion." As God's enemies were murdering Jesus on the cross, Jesus asked his Father to forgive them, because Jesus does only what he sees the Father doing. God through Jesus shows us a better way. A way that does not include force or violence. A way that includes submission and peace. It is through this "narrow way" that God deals with sin and rebellion. And it is this "narrow way" we are to enter into his kingdom.
Man's power is might and force, often because man is limited in his wisdom and resources. God's power is not like man's power. God will accomplish his will through a way that is not like the way of men (i.e. force, violence) when they want to accomplish their will.
And the very ending of the Bible (Rev. 21) says that the gates will *never* be shut. Given enough opportunity and time, God can save any lost and wandering soul living outside the gates. If I have enough patience to wait for my wayward son, surely God has enough to wait for his. I'm willing to bet God's patience is endless.
The end of Revelation gives room for hope.
Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
If all means all in the first half then all means all in the second half.
There is a internet myth floating around about the valley of Hinnom being a garbage dump where bodies were constantly burned, etc. It sounds oh so convincing. The problem is it has no basis in fact.As pointed out above... The Church Fathers on Universalism
Maybe God judges immediately, but Heb. 9:27 doesn't say or even imply "immediately". It just says "after". That could be immediately after death or that could be years after death.
*Gehenna* is commonly translated “hell.” Gehenna is derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. “This was a valley near Jerusalem, and appears to have held this name perhaps as far back as the time of Joshua. This valley was used by the more idolatrous kings of Judah as a place where they would sacrifice their own children to the god Moloch. It may also have been the location where, in a single night, the Messenger of Yahweh killed a massive number of Assyrians from the army of Sennacherib. Going from there, it was traditionally associated with the location Isaiah refers to in his final chapter ('they shall go out' implies exiting Jerusalem into the valley), where *dead* bodies are devoured by unquenchable fire (i.e. fire that does not stop burning until it has completely consumed everything in its path) and undying worms (i.e. the maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses). In ancient Aramaic translations of this chapter of Isaiah, the dead bodies are explicitly stated to be in the Valley of Hinnom, where the wicked suffered the 'second death'. Jesus confirms the traditional association by describing the Valley of Hinnom in the same way Isaiah describes the location filled with unquenchable fire and maggots. The Valley of Hinnom is only ever used by Jesus (with a single, extraneous usage by James) when speaking to his fellow Jews. He uses it especially when warning them about sinning unrepentantly. Jesus uses the Valley of Hinnom because it had become a common symbol for God's divine punishment. In this sense, it is analogous to the lake of fire (especially since both are referred to as the 'second death'). According to Jesus, God is able to destroy both body and soul in the Valley of Hinnom.” (“The History of Hell” by Mark Edward). See Joshua 18:16, 2 Kings 23:10 and 2 Chron. 33:6. I’d like to emphasize Luke 12:5 where it states that *after* God has killed the wicked ones, He has authority to cast the wicked *dead* into “hell” (actually, Gehenna), which is why it is called the “second death”—the dead body goes through a second death in the unquenchable fire that devours the dead body until it has been completely consumed.
That's nations. *And* the goats are separated because of their lack of *works* (i.e. feeding hungry, clothing poor) during the tribulation that was imminent. So unless you're a works-salvation person, this should make you rethink what Jesus is talking about here. It's not about the final judgment at Jesus' physical return.
Same as above. It's about AD 70.
Same as above. Jesus' primary mission was to warn those living at the time to repent for the kingdom was at hand. Destruction was coming. And did come.
And he called Peter Satan. So, you're wrong about your literal take on that.
That's just a figure of speech. Sinners are outside the gates that are always open. That means God can still work to redeem them. That may be offensive to some but that's what can be gleaned from many scriptures. I remain hopeful. I see a God who can do the unthinkable, the unimaginable...the God of surprises.
That phraseology--children of devil, lost sheep, goat nations--was first and foremost for AD 70 folks. We can still take the lessons but that wasn't written to us living in 2017.
Which people go through here and now who don't experience God.
It doesn't imply "forever dying" in the slightest. As a matter of fact, if you take just the OT, one would have to conclude annihilation is the correct doctrine. The wicked are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7), not forever being destroyed.
Yeah, it refers to maggots that unceasingly feast upon corpses...you know, *dead* bodies.
Why should we be offended by THE GOSPELPeople will just believe what they want to.
I just say speak truth and whomever receives it amen.
People , often forget the only goodness us men or women have IS Christ
and they get high minded and feel important.
Me, I am nothing, LET GOD have all the glory, though I be hated and persecuted, let HIS name be praised.
and I bet you agree with that too.
That's regarding AD 70. Jesus' mission was first and foremost to warn those living during that time that the kingdom of God was at hand and that "wrath" / judgment was imminent... that generation would not pass until all that Jesus warned them about wad fulfilled. And destruction indeed came. To those who did not believe his message, they were literally caught up in the fire that burned Jerusalem... swept away in "the flood." To those who heeded Jesus's words, they escaped and we're saved.That first time Christ came was as an offering for the sins of His people, He bore the sins of many, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. But when He comes the second time it is with fire to destroy all those that....well read here.
2 Thessalonians 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Where did I say it was thought to be a garbage dump? You will have to re-read my post.There is a internet myth floating around about the valley of Hinnom being a garbage dump where bodies were constantly burned, etc. It sounds oh so convincing. The problem is it has no basis in fact.
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1
“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism
Jewish Encyclopedia, GehennaWhen Jesus taught about,
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
What do you think CHRIST meant when HE spoke about a wicked generation asks for a sign?That's regarding AD 70. Jesus' mission was first and foremost to warn those living during that time that the kingdom of God was at hand and that "wrath" / judgment was imminent... that generation would not pass until all that Jesus warned them about wad fulfilled. And destruction indeed came. To those who did not believe his message, they were literally caught up in the fire that burned Jerusalem... swept away in "the flood." To those who heeded Jesus's words, they escaped and we're saved.
What evidence do you have for that? This seems like you could get into a gnostic heresy with this belief. If God is the Creator of all, doesn't that include Satan? I do not have any hope for Satan's soul but where did he/it come from if not from God?All things, that originate in God can be saved. The devil has no origin in God, so he can not be saved.
Two ministries:That first time Christ came was as an offering for the sins of His people, He bore the sins of many, He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. But when He comes the second time it is with fire to destroy all those that....well read here.
2 Thessalonians 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Well, Jesus said that the wicked generation in which he lived could not discern the "signs of the times" (cf. Mt. 16:3) and that he would not give them a sign other than the sign of Jonah, for just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites in his generation that destruction was coming, so was the Son of Man a sign to the Israelites in his generation that destruction was coming (cf. Luke 29:30). The Ninevites repented and did not see the wrath and judgment, for the way God dealt with nations in those times (the time of the old covenant) was as written in the analogy of the Potter and the Clay in Jeremiah 18--the nation must repent in order for "promised" destruction to not come. Israel did not heed the words of Jesus or the words of his messengers. The nation did not repent and they did see wrath and judgment in "the coming of the Son of Man" in the form of the Romans setting fire to Jerusalem and putting an end to their way of life.What do you think CHRIST meant when HE spoke about a wicked generation asks for a sign?
But none will be given but the sign of Jonah
He will have mercy on whom He Will have Mercy.Again, you are discounting God. HE CAN do anything He wants.
What was the word they heeded that saved themThat's regarding AD 70. Jesus' mission was first and foremost to warn those living during that time that the kingdom of God was at hand and that "wrath" / judgment was imminent... that generation would not pass until all that Jesus warned them about wad fulfilled. And destruction indeed came. To those who did not believe his message, they were literally caught up in the fire that burned Jerusalem... swept away in "the flood." To those who heeded Jesus's words, they escaped and we're saved.
I might ask the same question. Where did I say you said that? I addressed both aspects of the claims about Gehenna as did my evidence. My post also addresses the argument about hell not being eternal. Many Jews believed that some sinners were tormented forever in hell that the fire was not quenched and the worms did not die.Where did I say it was thought to be a garbage dump? You will have to re-read my post.
Yes that is trueHe will have mercy on whom He Will have Mercy.
For Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated from the mother's womb.
NO ONE can come to God without God's intervention.
God set the terms by which man would be saved.
Man cannot save himself, not by willing it to be so, not by running (working for it), it is purely a gift from God.
But that does not change the fact that man can resist God and even reject God's grace and mercy.
I see you have "Calvinist" as your theology. I assume, by your statement, that you are a five point Calvinist who believes Jesus did not die to pay for the sins of the whole world. Odd that you are siting scripture to make your point, since there are dozens of scriptures that say he died for the sins of the world and even the whole world. You can't just pick out the verses that support your theology and claim to believe the Bible. You have to believe it all.It's amazing to me how many people here on this Christian forum that state -- that the whole world will be saved.
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world
M-Bob
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