Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. What changed after the cross?

[ewq1938]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

The Old Covenant -- for each individual - "Obey and Live"
Genesis 2: 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Genesis 3:
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

Lev 18:5 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the Lord.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Gal 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin... Rom 3:23 ALL have sinned .

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As we see in Romans 3 - all mankind is under the Old Covenant - that is for each individual

Under that Individual Old Covenant no man is saved - all are condemned.

The LAW of God condemns all mankind as sinners and that Law includes the TEN as we see in Romans 7

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NATION level Old Covenant - is in Ex 19 and Ex 20

Under the NATION level Covenant - ( which is merely a type of the individual "Old Covenant") that NATION is told to obey and live.

This means that on the day God spoke the TEN Commandments to Israel - Israel was accepted as a chosen nation
NO MATTER That on that every same day someone , some individual , in the camp of Israel coveted.

For the NATION level Covenant to be broken the entire nation must as a group go into worship of a false god - which they would later do some weeks after hearing God speak the TEN.

The nation-level Covenant was a "type" of the Individual Old Covenant with mankind that started in Eden and is still in effect today for anyone not under the NEW Covenant.

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Thank God that the Old Testament has the NEW Covenant - Jer 31:31-34
And that "The Gospel was preached to Abraham' Gal 3:8

 

[HTacianas]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

If you look to the old testament you'll see that there was no sacrifice to atone for mortal sin. The sacrifices of the old testament only covered "sins of ignorance", meaning sins committed unintentionally. But God Himself can forgive even mortal sins. Jesus forgave sins basically by fiat, such as the thief on the cross. After the cross we receive forgiveness of previous sins through baptism, just as if we received forgiveness by Jesus in person.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

It was done in anticipation of the cross, just as the sins of the OT saints were also forgiven in anticipation of the cross (Ro 3:25-26).

After the cross, sin is now forgiven by the new birth's saving faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25), thereby removing God's condemnation (Ro 5:18) on our sin and saving us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).
Then in the Christian life, God forgives our sin in confessing it to him (1 Jn 1:8-10).

 

[BobRyan]

It is the OT New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 that is the one and only gospel of Gal 1:6-9

 

[BobRyan]

If you look to the old testament you'll see that there was no sacrifice to atone for mortal sin. The sacrifices of the old testament only covered "sins of ignorance", meaning sins committed unintentionally

IN Heb 10:4 we see this -

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

The animal sacrifices were only symbols pointing to the blood of Christ. It was faith in the blood of Christ -- in the OT -- that forgave sins.

Moses committed murder in the OT - and was forgiven. In fact in Matt 17 Moses stands in glory with Christ (as well as Elijah) on the mount of transfiguration. Fully forgiven before the cross.

 

[HTacianas]

IN Heb 10:4 we see this -

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

The animal sacrifices were only symbols pointing to the blood of Christ. It was faith in the blood of Christ -- in the OT -- that forgave sins.

Moses committed murder in the OT - and was forgiven. In fact in Matt 17 Moses stands in glory with Christ (as well as Elijah) on the mount of transfiguration. Fully forgiven before the cross.

Act 13:38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;

Act 13:39 “and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[Blade]

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority and the power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your stretcher and go home.” Its Him! Its who He was is always will be.

Some of the posts didn't even answer this.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

It was done in anticipation of the cross, just as the sins of the OT saints were also forgiven in anticipation of the cross (Ro 3:25-26).

After the cross, sin is now forgiven by the new birth's saving faith in the atoning work of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25), thereby removing God's condemnation (Ro 5:18) on our sin and saving us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9).
Then in the Christian life, God forgives our sin in confessing it to him (1 Jn 1:8-10).

I keep seeing this amazing causation that is not time-dependent. God regenerated us, gave us faith; we believe and repent, we confess our sins —modern day— and thus God for Christ's sake forgave our sins 2000 years ago.

 

[bling]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

Today empathetically we can be painfully crucified with Christ. Like those in Acts 2 we can experience a death blow to our hearts and yet live as Loving discipline.

 

[Unqualified]

After the cross we could all be forgiven, not just a few individuals. When He died those few forgiven and saved souls were in a sense had their forgiveness confirmed and backed up by Jesus blood. They then could receive the HS. And salvation.

He made a point that only God could forgive sins and did so. He deepened the rift between him and the Pharisees. It was his witness to his God hood. So they killed him and He fulfilled all the law.

 

[BobRyan]

After the cross we could all be forgiven, not just a few individuals.

If even one person could be fully forgiven in the OT - then all could be.

The Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

Heb 4:2 speaks of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them ALSO"

1 Peter 1:13 The "Spirit of Christ IN them indicated the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" -- it is all faith in Christ both OT and NT

 

[Unqualified]

If even one person could be fully forgiven in the OT - then all could be.

The Gospel "was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. It goes all the way back to Genesis.

Heb 4:2 speaks of Israel in the wilderness for 40 years "The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them ALSO"

1 Peter 1:13 The "Spirit of Christ IN them indicated the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" -- it is all faith in Christ both OT and NT

Could not be forgiven with out the shedding of blood. Theoretically but not in reality. David was forgiven because he acknowledged his sin and because he was a prophet , king and had faith. They would have killed him if he offered the sacrifice for murder. He was a special case and then he prophesied against the sacrifice. That God didn’t desire them. He was a force for change.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

Christ trampled down death by death, among other things sealing the New Covenant with His blood, as promised at the Last Supper, which we partake of in actuality in the Eucharist, which along with Baptism and other mysteries establishes our covenantal relationship with Christ by grafting us onto His body, the Church (however we define that ecclesiologically; I myself, troubled by certain schisms, am highly tolerant of differences of opinion in ecclesiology, but I like ecclesiological models in which Catholicity is defined in relationship to Communion, because of the importance attached to this by the Fathers of the Early Church as expressed in, for example, the Apostles’ Creed, an ancient Baptismal liturgy used in the Western Church that is textually related to the Nicene Creed which defines the essential parameters of Christian doctrine.*

*As a liturgical excursus, since the liturgy is the defining fabric of Christian faith, according to the principle of Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, even in the context of churches that only follow a pattern of worship rather than written forms:

My one main objection to the Stone-Campbell movement is their “No Creed but Christ” approach, since they get other things so very much right, that being a rejection of denominational separation and an emphasis on the Eucharist. But I feel that the Nicene Creed should be recited at least every Sunday, and the Apostles’ Creed and other texts used in support, for example, the version of Quincunque Vult that lacks the filioque, which I think I will post to my Christian Forums blog as it is obscure, and other creedal hymns, for example, the Latin hymn Te Deum Laudamus, composed by Saints Ambrose and Augustine, the Greek hymn Ho Monogenes, found in the Eastern Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox and most prominently, the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, composed by St. Severus of Antioch, and the Syriac hymn Haw Nurone, composed by St. Jacob of Sarugh, used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, and one would hope in the pre-Vatican II Maronite and Syriac Catholic Liturgies which were derived from the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, since these two churches separated from it in schism, as it basically is an affirmation of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and does not contain anything contrary to a Chalcedonian Christology (indeed, I would argue that the Miaphysite and Chalcedonian Christologies are not contradictory, but that is another argument).

Essentially all of these creedal hymns affirm a covenantal relationship which was sealed on the Cross, the Covenant @ewq1938 refers to, which is approached by us either through Baptism and the Eucharist or alternatively the shedding of our own blood for confessing Christ, since Scripture makes it clear that if we are killed for confessing that Jesus Christ is the Lord, we will be saved. This is often called the “Baptism of blood” when it happens to the unbaptized. Indeed even the Good Thief represents an example of the power of confessing faith in Christ, for he is saved in extremis, and interestingly enough is the first person to be directly saved by Christ as He actualizes the covenant through His death and resurrection, by which He redeems and sanctifies fallen humanity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

If by the OP title and the last question you mean, "How did the Gospel (i.e. redemption, substitution, atonement, imputation, regeneration, salvation), change, after the cross?", it didn't change.

 

[Clare73]

Today empathetically we can be painfully crucified with Christ.

Not the meaning of "crucified with Christ" in the NT.

Like those in Acts 2 we can experience a death blow to our hearts and yet live as Loving discipline.

Ac 2 has nothing to do with the NT concept of "crucified with Christ."

This is misappropriation of NT concepts.

 

[bling]

Not the meaning of "crucified with Christ" in the NT.

Ac 2 has nothing to do with the NT concept of "crucified with Christ."

This is misappropriation of NT concepts.

What is your meaning to being "Crucified with Christ and why that meaning?

 

[Clare73]

What is your meaning to being "Crucified with Christ and why that meaning?

See Ro 6:3-8, Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14, Col 3:3, Php 3:18-19, 2 Co 4:10, Col 2:12.

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin.

 

[Soyeong]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

God promised a Redeemer and people before the cross were saved through faith in the promise in the same way that we are. There is a sense that the cross changed everything, though the effect of the cross has ramifications for all time, so there is also a sense that the cross changed nothing, or in other words, that the cross actualized what has always been and will alway be truth.

 

[bling]

See Ro 6:3-8, Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24, Gal 6:14, Col 3:3, Php 3:18-19, 2 Co 4:10, Col 2:12.

Clare those are all good verses, so how do you interpret these verses and give me your interpretation?
Do you hurt for Christ when you think about His crucifixion and if so how bad is it for you?