Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. What changed after the cross?

[Clare73]

Clare those are all good verses, so how do you interpret these verses

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin.

and give me your interpretation?

Give me your interpretation of those plain texts and we'll go from there.

Do you hurt for Christ when you think about His crucifixion and if so how bad is it for you?

Extra-Biblical doctrine. . .relevance to any NT doctrine?

 

[John Mullally]

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin.

Give me your interpretation of those plain texts and we'll go from there.

You frequently answer by posting a one-liner with a laundry list of scripture references. When someone asks you to explain how the scripture references tie into your argument (which is fair), you turn it around and ask the other person to explain their understanding of the laundry list of texts you referenced.

WRONG! The onus is on you as you are the one referencing the scriptures to support YOUR argument. The Laundry List Approach: How To Bury Your Failed Position

 

[Clare73]

You frequently answer by posting a laundry list of scripture references without explanation of how the scriptures tie into your argument. When someone asks you to explain how the scripture references tie into your argument (which is fair), you turn it around and ask the other person to explain their understanding of the laundry list of texts you reference.

The onus is on you as you are the one referencing the scriptures.

You might note that I stated what my interpretation was of those verses.

Problem with me wanting to see why the poster did not agree?

 

[John Mullally]

You might note that I stated what my interpretation was of those verses.

Problem with me wanting to see why the poster did not agree?

You summarized 8 scripture passages with a pithy one-line statement - that is not supporting an interpretation of 8 different scripture passages. To make matters worse, when questioned you ask the other to explain those verses. The onus is on YOU to explain how the scriptures you reference tie into YOUR argument.

In Post 20 Bling asked you to explain how your 8 scripture references tie into your pithy one-line summary statement in Post 18. Your response in Post 21 added no new information, but rather asked Bling to explain the 8 scriptures you referenced in Post 18 if he wanted to to continue the conversation. You do this kind of thing frequently: You don't show your reasoning, and is disrespectful of the other person's time as you ask him to explain your laundry list of scriptures.

If you were to explain how scripture supports your argument, the other person would have a chance to agree or point out flaws. Why won't your allow that? That is telling.

 

[Clare73]

You summarized 8 scripture passages with a short one-line statement - that is not supporting an interpretation of 8 different scripture passages. To make matters worse, when questioned you ask Bling to explain those verses The onus is on YOU to explain how the scriptures you reference tie into YOUR argument.

In Post 20 Bling asked you to explain how your 8 scripture references tie into a short one-line summary statement in Post 18. Your response in Post 21 added no new information, but rather asked Bling to explain the 8 scriptures you referenced in Post 18 in order to continue the conversation. You do this kind of thing frequently, you don't show your reasoning, and is disrespectful of the other person's time as you ask him to do what you should have done. You do this kind of thing frequently.

If you were to explain how scripture supports your argument, the other person would have a chance to point out flaws. Why won't your allow that? That is telling.

Until you show how that "short one-line summary" is not the meaning of those Scriptures, you have no argument.

 

[John Mullally]

Until you show how that "short one-line summary" is not the meaning of those Scriptures, you have no argument.

When asked, the one who makes the argument needs to show how exactly their laundry list of scripture references support their argument. Otherwise no scripture supported argument has been made. The onus is always on the one making the argument. I don't like a guessing game.

 

[Clare73]

When asked, the one who makes the argument needs to show how their laundry list of scripture references support their argument. - they posted them. Otherwise no scripture supported argument has been made. I don't like a guessing game.

The wording of the Scriptures is clear. There is nothing to explain.

Your refusal to address them speaks for itself.

 

[John Mullally]

The wording of the Scriptures is clear. There is nothing to explain.

Your refusal to address them speaks for itself.

THE ONUS IS ALWAYS ON THE ONE MAKING THE ARGUMENT. The problem is not just this particular interchange. It is your habit of making a pithy statement and referencing a laundry list of Bible verses as if that is sufficient. When questioned you don't add information, but instead demand that the other person prove your pithy statement false from the verses you listed in order to continue the conversation - you actually said that here.

Many false statements can be made using scriptures that on the surface support but when taken in context do not prove that statement, And in general those false statements cannot be disproven from listed "proof texts" as other scriptures are necessary. Its a disagreeable cheap argumentation method that minimizes scrutiny as you don't detail your argument and it is disrespectful of the other persons time.

 

[bling]

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin.

Give me your interpretation of those plain texts and we'll go from there.

Extra-Biblical doctrine. . .relevance to any NT doctrine?

Christ died because of your personal sins, if you had gone through life fulfilling your earthly objective without sinning, Christ would not have died for you.

Christ dies for your benefit (for you),

If we are to die to sin like Christ suffered in death on the cross, it would be an extremely painful experience, one we would not desire to repeat and thus would hopefully help keep us from sinning again.

If we truly have “died” to sin, how can we sin again or have you stopped sinning?

You said our being empathetic with Christ during His crucifixion is: Extra-Biblical doctrine. . .relevance to any NT doctrine?

If you experience sorrow, suffering and pain empathetically while remembering Christ’s torture humiliation and murder on the cross mean, than you believe He really suffered and was murdered because of your sins as compared to people who believe Christ died to solve a problem God had with forgiving sin and/or since Christ died for lots or all sins, He only spent a nanosecond on the cross for my sins.

This is all about the atonement sacrifice and I feel the whole atonement process is better experienced than explained, which includes empathy for Christ. Have you experienced atonement in your life?

I have gone through the atonement process, but am reminded each time a weekly partake of the Lord’s Supper (it is to be a reminder). The only way I can keep from falling to the ground is the Greatest Love is also being remembered at that time. Are you experiencing something different? Does the suffering grow with increased knowledge of Christ?

Ro. 6 needs more review than just 6 verses:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul is giving the logic behind why we should not sin further even though our sins are graciously forgiven.

Paul says: “We are those who have died to sin”, but if we are dead how can we still sin, so death here does not mean motionless or we left our body?

Paul uses the analogy of baptism being like Christ’s death on the cross, notice that we are going through the process and it is not Christ taking our place in going through the process. Since we went through the death process ourselves, we are dead to sin, again Christ did not go through it for us. Our water emersion baptism is very much like what Christ went through and is physically like what is happening Spiritually. The going down into the water physically feeling a washing away (like our sins being washed away), allowing another to control us (like we turn our life over to God), being raised from a watery grave (like being saved), leaving the water greeted by our new family (like step into the Kingdom of the righteous).

All the Christians both Jew and Gentile went through this ritual analogous to what Christ went through with His death.

Bottom line: Christ’s actual death stopped the atonement sacrifice, stopped the suffering, freed Christ to go to the Father, it would have been a relieve for Christ. Paul is only addressing the death part and not the torture, humiliation and being murdered on the cross, the “sacrifice”, why would death itself be a big deal for Christ.

What I am addressing is the crucifixion and not the relieving death.



Gal. 2: 19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Here Paul is addressing the wrong idea of being saved by the works of the Law and not by grace.

Paul says: “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me”, but he does not explain how he experienced being crucified with Christ.

Yes! “Christ gave Himself for Paul” you and I as a suffering sacrifice on the cross.

Gal. 5: 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

This is not talking about being crucified with Christ, but our dealing with our sinful desires. We are to treat our sinful desires like wicked people treated Christ, hoarsely, show no mercy, swiftly and without remorse.

Gal. 6: 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

Our crucifying the world or having Christ crucify the world to us through the cross, is not the same as our being crucified or our being crucified with Christ.



Col. 3: 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Again, this is talking about our death and not our suffering, pain and hardship of the cross. Death is not a bad thing for we are now hidden with Christ in God, but going through crucifixion is torturous.



Phil. 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

This is not talking about being crucified with Christ and really is addressing enemies of Christianity.

2 Cor. 4: 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

It is hard to live with (carry around) the fact we are responsible for Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, but there is also the Life of Christ with us, the indwelling Spirit. We are to be dead to sin so Christ can really be seen in us, but again no being crucified with Christ here.

Col 2: 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

Again, this is talking about death and not the crucifixion.

Bottom line: Gal. 2:20 mentions being crucified with Christ, but does not explain what that means. Knowing somethings about God the Father, I would say God out of an empathetic Love for Christ would have suffered as much or more “with” Christ while Christ was on the cross. As we learn more about Christ, our own sins, and increase our partnership with Christ we to must empathetically suffer with Christ.

 

[Clare73]

THE ONUS IS ALWAYS ON THE ONE MAKING THE ARGUMENT. The problem is not just this particular interchange. It is your habit of making a pithy statement and referencing a laundry list of Bible verses. When questioned you don't explain, but instead demand that the other person prove your pithy statement false from the verses you listed in order to continue the conversation - you actually said that here.

Many false arguments can be made using scriptures that on the surface support but when taken in context do not prove that argument, And in general those false arguments cannot be disproven from listed "proof texts" as other scriptures are necessary. Its a cheap argumentation method that minimizes scrutiny as you don't detail your argument and it is disrespectful of the other persons time.

The wording of the Scriptures is clear.

Laboring the obvious is above my pay grade.

If you have any questions, feel free to present them, and we can go from there.

Whether you're interested in arguing or interested in demonstrating Scripture will be clear from your response.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus could and did forgive sins before the cross. This took place in the OT or otherwise known as a time under the old/first covenant. How could he forgive sins without the shedding of blood?

What changed after the cross? (his death and shed blood ushered in the new covenant)

as far as I understand things God sees things on an eternal timescale not ours. God includes the future events that will happen as having already been done
Those people were forgiven because Jesus was going to die for them.
I mean we're declaring victory over death even though we still physically die.. because the resurrection will happen in the future and by God's reckoning, is as good as done already.

 

[Jamdoc]

Act 13:38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;

Act 13:39 “and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Nothing is justified by the law of Moses. The laws of Moses universally convict. That's why we need a savior, because we can't live up to them.

Acts 15

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The law had no salvific power, truly "salvation" itself means you were on the course for destruction already and something or someone saved you from it. If we obeyed the law perfectly then we wouldn't need salvation, as God would have no charge to condemn us in the first place.
But because that's impossible, everyone sins, we all need to be saved.. and the law is powerless to do that, only to condemn.

Romans 4 and Hebrews 11 show that salvation has always been grace, not law.

 

[John Mullally]

The wording of the Scriptures is clear.

If your assertion is so obviously supported from clear scripture, you should have no problem responding to Bling's well thought out post (Post 29). I am looking forward to that response. We should be prepared to add reason and logic to scripture to support our assertions. If we cannot explain it, we have not thought it through.

Treat people the way you want to be treated: If you are unwilling to explain your assertion beyond referencing a laundry list of scriptures, then don't demand other's disprove your assertion from scripture - as you did in Post 21. Again, the onus is on the one making the assertion - which is YOU. Merely making assertions and exchanging proof texts is not a productive debate.

Laboring the obvious is above my pay grade.

You talk about things being "above your pay grade" now and then. Making assertions that you will not or cannot explain should be above your pay grade. Calling something clear and obvious is not an argument. There should be nothing easier to explain than something clearly and obviously supported by scripture - so what does that say?

 

[Clare73]

Whether you're interested in learning or interested in arguing will be clear from your response.

If your assertion is so obviously supported from clear scripture, you should have no problem responding

And there we have the answer to what you are interested in.

 

[John Mullally]

And there we have the answer to what you are interested in.

If you paid attention you would know I took no stand on your assertion (Post 18). I pointed out your habit of only supporting your assertions by referencing a long list of scriptures - with no explanation. Look over the thread. On top of that when questioned (Post 20 & 21), you demand opponents prove you wrong from scripture. Thus you demand from others what you are unwilling to do - which is to explain how scripture supports your argument. Strictly referencing a laundry list of scripture is frequently of little value to others as we are not mind readers who can read between the lines and discern how the scriptures work together to support an argument that we have disagreed with. You are unwilling to do the work you demand from others - I point it out because that is your common practice and it needs to stop.

I am awaiting your response to Post 29. Bling does an excellent job (in my mind better than anyone on this forum) at showing how one supports an argument in detail from scripture. And it was a lot of work on his part as he went through all 8 of your scripture passages. Kudos to Bling. Based upon your response (or non-response) to Post 29 we will see if your labeling something "clear" and "obvious" means anything - or is it just a bluff.

 

[Clare73]

Christ died because of your personal sins, if you had gone through life fulfilling your earthly objective without sinning, Christ would not have died for you.

See Ro 5:18.
See Eph 2:3, where we are by nature (we are born with our nature) objects of wrath.

Christ dies for your benefit (for you),
If we are to die to sin like Christ suffered in death on the cross, it would be an extremely painful experience, one we would not desire to repeat and thus would hopefully help keep us from sinning again.
If we truly have “died” to sin, how can we sin again or have you stopped sinning?

You said our being empathetic with Christ during His crucifixion is: Extra-Biblical doctrine. . .relevance to any NT doctrine?

If you experience sorrow, suffering and pain empathetically while remembering Christ’s torture humiliation and murder on the cross mean, than you believe He really suffered and was murdered because of your sins as compared to people who believe Christ died to solve a problem God had with forgiving sin and/or since Christ died for lots or all sins, He only spent a nanosecond on the cross for my sins.

This is all about the atonement sacrifice and I feel the whole atonement process is better experienced than explained, which includes empathy for Christ. Have you experienced atonement in your life?

I have gone through the atonement process, but am reminded each time a weekly partake of the Lord’s Supper (it is to be a reminder). The only way I can keep from falling to the ground is the Greatest Love is also being remembered at that time. Are you experiencing something different? Does the suffering grow with increased knowledge of Christ?

Ro. 6 needs more review than just 6 verses:

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Paul is giving the logic behind why we should not sin further even though our sins are graciously forgiven.

Paul says: “We are those who have died to sin”, but if we are dead how can we still sin, so death here does not mean motionless or we left our body?

Paul uses the analogy of baptism being like Christ’s death on the cross, notice that we are going through the process and it is not Christ taking our place in going through the process. Since we went through the death process ourselves, we are dead to sin, again Christ did not go through it for us. Our water emersion baptism is very much like what Christ went through and is physically like what is happening Spiritually. The going down into the water physically feeling a washing away (like our sins being washed away), allowing another to control us (like we turn our life over to God), being raised from a watery grave (like being saved), leaving the water greeted by our new family (like step into the Kingdom of the righteous).

All the Christians both Jew and Gentile went through this ritual analogous to what Christ went through with His death.

Bottom line: Christ’s actual death stopped the atonement sacrifice, stopped the suffering, freed Christ to go to the Father, it would have been a relieve for Christ. Paul is only addressing the death part and not the torture, humiliation and being murdered on the cross, the “sacrifice”, why would death itself be a big deal for Christ.

What I am addressing is the crucifixion and not the relieving death.



Gal. 2: 19 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Here Paul is addressing the wrong idea of being saved by the works of the Law and not by grace.

Paul says: “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me”, but he does not explain how he experienced being crucified with Christ.

Yes! “Christ gave Himself for Paul” you and I as a suffering sacrifice on the cross.

Gal. 5: 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

This is not talking about being crucified with Christ, but our dealing with our sinful desires. We are to treat our sinful desires like wicked people treated Christ, hoarsely, show no mercy, swiftly and without remorse.

Gal. 6: 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.

Our crucifying the world or having Christ crucify the world to us through the cross, is not the same as our being crucified or our being crucified with Christ.



Col. 3: 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Again, this is talking about our death and not our suffering, pain and hardship of the cross. Death is not a bad thing for we are now hidden with Christ in God, but going through crucifixion is torturous.



Phil. 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

This is not talking about being crucified with Christ and really is addressing enemies of Christianity.

2 Cor. 4: 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

It is hard to live with (carry around) the fact we are responsible for Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder, but there is also the Life of Christ with us, the indwelling Spirit. We are to be dead to sin so Christ can really be seen in us, but again no being crucified with Christ here.

Col 2: 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead

Again, this is talking about death and not the crucifixion.

Bottom line: Gal. 2:20 mentions being crucified with Christ, but does not explain what that means. Knowing somethings about God the Father, I would say God out of an empathetic Love for Christ would have suffered as much or more “with” Christ while Christ was on the cross. As we learn more about Christ, our own sins, and increase our partnership with Christ we to must empathetically suffer with Christ.

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin, as in:

I have been crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20).
Our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with (Ro 6:6-8).
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).
We have been buried with him through/in baptism (Col 2:12) into death in order that. . .we too may live a new life (Ro 6:4).
The cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal 6:14).
Set your mind on things above not earthly things. For you have died, and your life is in Christ (Col 3:3).
Many live as as enemies of the cross of Christ. . .Their mind is on earthly things (sinful nature not crucified), (Php 3:18-19).

 

[Clare73]

If you paid attention you would know I took no stand on your assertion (Post 18). I pointed out your habit of only supporting your assertions by referencing a long list of scriptures - with no explanation. Look over the thread. On top of that when questioned (Post 20 & 21), you demand opponents prove you wrong from scripture. Thus you demand from others what you are unwilling to do - which is to explain how scripture supports your argument. Strictly referencing a laundry list of scripture is frequently of little value to others as we are not mind readers who can read between the lines and discern how the scriptures work together to support an argument that we have disagreed with. You are unwilling to do the work you demand from others - I point it out because that is your common practice and it needs to stop.

I am awaiting your response to Post 29. Bling does an excellent job (in my mind better than anyone on this forum) at showing how one supports an argument in detail from scripture. And it was a lot of work on his part as he went through all 8 of your scripture passages. Kudos to Bling. Based upon your response (or non-response) to Post 29 we will see if your labeling something "clear" and "obvious" means anything - or is it just a bluff.

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin, as in

I have been crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20).
Our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with (Ro 6:6-8).
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).
We have been buried with him through/in baptism (Col 2:12) into death in order that. . .we too may live a new life (Ro 6:4).
The cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal 6:14).
Set your mind on things above not earthly things. For you have died, and your life is in Christ (Col 3:3).
Many live as as enemies of the cross of Christ. . .Their mind is on earthly things (sinful nature not crucified), (Php 3:18-19).

Perhaps someone can explain these to you.

 

[John Mullally]

To be crucified with Christ is to die to sin as Christ died for sin, as in

I have been crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20).
Our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with (Ro 6:6-8).
We have been buried with him through/in baptism (Col 2:12) into death in order that. . .we too may live a new life (Ro 6:4).
Those who belong to Christ have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).
The cross of our Lord Jesus Christ through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Gal 6:14).
Set your mind on things above not earthly things. For you have died, and your life is in Christ (Col 3:3).
Many live as as enemies of the cross of Christ. . .Their mind is on earthly things (sinful nature not crucified), (Php 3:18-19).

Perhaps someone can explain this to you.

All you did was quote the passages you referenced - which is a minor improvement. You still do not explain how the passages fit together to support your assertion. You do not do what you demand from your opponents, which is to prove from scripture. How about responding to Bling's arguments in Post 29?

If believers are dead to sin, they will never sin. Do you know anyone who has not sinned after conversion? Or claim to not sin for an extended period like a year?

Romans 6:11 says believers must consider themselves dead to sin. That and the scriptures you reference are key to avoiding sin. God will not make anyone do that 24/7. And since we have lapses, sin is not totally extinguished.

Paul had to expend effort to keep his flesh from dominating him (1 Corinthians 9:27). Sinlessness is not automatic.

 

[Clare73]

If believers are consistently dead to sin, they will not sin. Do you know anyone who has not sinned after conversion?

Romans 6:11 says believers must consider themselves dead to sin. That is key to avoiding sin. God will not make anyone do that.

Paul had to expend effort to keep his flesh from dominating him (1 Corinthians 9:27).

1 John 1:9 is in the Bible for a good reason.

I take it that after all your noise (arguing), you are actually in agreement with the word of God in the "proof" verses of my post #37. . .

 

[John Mullally]

I take it you are agreeing with my post #37. . .

No I don't agree. Have you sinned since your conversion? If you have and you believe your own argument you are not saved. Why is 1 John 1:9-10 in the Bible? Are you going to spiritualize your sin by telling me your flesh sinned, but the real you (i.e. your spirit) did not? I heard that long ago from a good friend trying to convert me to Calvinism in my teens.

Those scriptures you quote are largely strategies for avoiding sin. If you don't practice them 24/7 (i.e, consider yourself dead to sin), you will sin. I don't know anyone who has not sinned since conversion. Prove me wrong - testify! Open it up to your Amen choir!