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PetersKeys

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Oh boy. Methinks you should look into cladistics a little further, as your apparent lack of understanding could easily be remedied by even a cursory understanding of biology 101.


And yet you still can't explain why human beings are the only species on earth that have reason and free will. Out of millions of species we are the only ones who has reason. I find that odd don't you?

However, they can be taught sign-language and other forms of communication with humans and other members of their own species.

This is reward based. "Push the button, get the banana". Same thing with dolphins. The ape is still unable to ponder things that have reason like philosophy and intellect. Saying humans came from apes is like saying a toy lego produced a Dual Core Pentium 3GHZ computer.

If evolution is true, species that evolve from other species still have similar characteristics. Look at the reptiles. While they may be different physically in some areas, they almost all exibit the same living, hunting and characteristics. And most importantly, they all still act on instinct, not reason.
 
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Abdul Alhazred

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Firstly, the question "If a mother kills her unborn child in her womb, is that bad?" is entirely biased. But even assuming you said that, most young children would be guessing, using your tone of voice. If you ask them in an upbeat, sarcastic or friendly tone, they'll say it's not bad. If you ask them in a serious tone, they'll say it is. The fact you judge what is true based on the fact that children think so speaks volumes about your intelligence.

Secondly, most abortions are not late-term as you're suggesting.
 
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IzzyPop

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If apes had reason they would be able to learn the human language very easily.
And we have taught gorillas sign language. They do not have the physical structures in their throats and mouths to make human phonetical sounds. But even dogs can understand some human words, other apes can as well.




You can do better than that..

If humans really are apes then other forms of apes would have the same characteristics as we do. There would be similar civilizations, technology, philosophy, etc.
By characteristics, do you mean like bilateral symmetry, opposable thumbs, the ability to walk upright, or the inability to synthesize Vitamin C? Because we share those with other great apes.

There have been sociological studies that compare the interactions of a group of chimpanzees and social pecking order of a corporate environment. The similarities are astounding.
 
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Abdul Alhazred

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Behavior has nothing to do with it.
We're talking physical and genetic similarities.

Today's great apes can be taught to talk using sign language and use primitive tools. They're still apes, of course, but it's not that ludicrous to think that in a few hundred-thousand years they might pick up more human-like traits.
 
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cantata

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And yet you still can't explain why human beings are the only species on earth that have reason and free will. Out of millions of species we are the only ones who has reason. I find that odd don't you?

Ask an evolutionary biologist. If you had a difficulty with atomic theory, would you expect laypeople to answer your questions, or would you consult a book written by an expert?

Do you really think that no evolutionary biologist has been asked this question before? Do you think that if it were a convincing objection they would have ignored it? If so, why?


Way to move the goalposts. First you said apes need to reason. Then you said that they need to be able to use language. Now you're saying they need to be able to philosophise. How do you know they don't?


Reptiles are hugely diverse. Some of them reproduce via parthenogenesis (i.e. they are all female and do not need to have sex to reproduce), while all the rest reproduce sexually. Some are vegetarian, some are carnivorous, some are omnivorous. Some kill their prey by drowning, some by venom, some by suffocation. The only things that reptiles have in common are physical. They are cold-blooded, they have scales, &c. No behaviours, except those directly related to their physiology (i.e. basking behaviour), are common to all reptiles. Even smaller divisions within the group of reptiles, such as snakes, are hugely diverse in their habits.

Anyway, this is a pointless argument. Biology disagrees with you; humans are technically classified as apes. See here.
 
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PetersKeys

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My intelligence? If you had intelligence you would see that Im using childrens unadultered instinct as an example of our born moral traits within us. And it is only through outward human conditioning that one only begins to think that abortion is ok. Based on a primative instinctive level, the human conscious and instinct regards abortion as wrong and murder.
 
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Abdul Alhazred

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Except that humans are not born with any kind of moral traits at all.

What you're actually doing is trying to shoot, in a dark room, at a target that doesn't exist.
 
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selfinflikted

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That's simply not true. My reasoning for thinking that abortion =/= murder is simple... because it isn't. Also, I like to think that I arrived at my conclusions about abortion, morally speaking, through reason. It had nothing to do with conditioning, as you would suggest. I was born and raised by Southern Baptist parents in a predominantly christian town of only about 3,000. If anything, I'd say I was conditioned to believe that abortion is wrong. However, that is not the conclusion I reached through my own reasoning.
 
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PetersKeys

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A creature that acts on instinct cannot evolve into a creature that has advanced reason and intellect. If this was true, there would be many other examples of this on earth of other species that have reason and intellect. Everything has apparently evoloved from lower species, yet only one species out of millions uses reason instead of instinct.

So I am gonna ask again. Why are we the only creatures on earth that ponder ourselves and have reason. Could there be a chance maybe that our souls are God given and special?

I think its arrogant to think evolution has a higher ground that intelligent design, espesially considering the great amount of gaps evolution cannot explain. Both theorys are equal to each other, and both should be taught in schools. Schools should have it, and Im not talking about Kent Hovind creationist type stuff, Im simply talking about having Intelligent Design side by side to help level out what is taught and so the children can question things much better instead of taking evolution as straight on without anything else. To would teach children to question more "Why are there so little transitional fossils" , "why are there so many missing gaps", etc. Teaching evolution straight on is no different than forcing creationism straight on.
 
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Abdul Alhazred

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Where did this 'children are right' spiel come from, anyway?

Children are idiots, and if you're drawing your conclusions based on what children think, then not only is that logically fallacious (an appeal to authority), it's downright retarded.

It's like saying "I think that all of the people down at the local mental asylum are lobotomized ex-CIA agents, so I asked them about the Giant Purple Hat conspiracy. Turns out it's true!".
 
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LittleNipper

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The Bible never said not to take your child to a doctor. Luke was a physician. Prayer can motivate the finding of the best doctor, the best treatment, the cause of an ailment. The idiot doesn't get into the lifeboat when one is sent and the flood is rising.
 
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keith99

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If I ever hear of a child without any conditioning I'll let you know. There have been a few without human conditioning. In those cases they would all growl like wolves.
 
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LittleNipper

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Obama says he is a Baptist...
 
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IzzyPop

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Other animals use reason. I had a dog that would knock the trash can over not to get what was in the trash, but to use it as a stepping stone to get on the counter to get to the good food. I don't recall ever showing him or training him to do that. And he is why I will never own another Jack Russell for as long as I live.

Primates use tools. The fashioning of even crude tools is not instinctive. Sea birds drop shelled creatures from a height to get to the goodies inside. How is this instinctive?

You want to know what is arrogant? Creationism trying to sidestep the scientific method to force your God into our schools. You want to know what is arrogant? You deciding that your own infallible Church is wrong. You want to know what is arrogant? You spouting off this inane list of PRATTs that proves you have no idea of what you are talking about and expecting us to think you have a leg to stand on. You want to talk about evolution? Go ahead. But read a little something about it first before you go and tell us that do not know what we are talking about and that we are full of crap. And by a little something, I don't mean a Chick tract or some other source that is full of lies. Go read a freaking textbook. Spend some time on the internet at talkorigins.com or some university website that explains evolution in terms that even you could understand.

[/rant]
 
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LittleNipper

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So tell me through reasoning, why didn't your parents abort you before you were born and why does that make any difference?
 
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Abdul Alhazred

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A creature that acts on instinct cannot evolve into a creature that has advanced reason and intellect.
Why not?
If this was true, there would be many other examples of this on earth of other species that have reason and intellect.
This is not true.
Everything has apparently evoloved from lower species, yet only one species out of millions uses reason instead of instinct.
And?

So I am gonna ask again. Why are we the only creatures on earth that ponder ourselves and have reason. Could there be a chance maybe that our souls are God given and special?
There's a higher chance that we've simply evolved with a greater capacity for abstract thought, leading to the natural formation of complex language.

I think its arrogant to think evolution has a higher ground that intelligent design,
No, it's simply logical to think evolution has a higher ground than intelligent design.
...espesially considering the great amount of gaps evolution cannot explain.
Evolution has gaps because we don't know everything. Intelligent design doesn't have gaps because it amounts to 'the magic man did it'. We still don't know everything about gravity, but we have a pretty good idea of how it works. Suppose I come up with 'intelligent falling' that says objects are pushed down by the invisible appendages of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. According to your logic, I would be correct.
Both theorys are equal to each other, and both should be taught in schools.
Intelligent Design has no evidence or practical application, and therefore, is not science. Ergo, it should not be taught in science class.
In America, it's impossible to NOT hear the creationist argument, even assuming you're from an atheist family. There's more to life than school.
To would teach children to question more "Why are there so little transitional fossils",
All fossils are transitional fossils, so if they're taught that there are few of them, they're being purposefully misinformed.
"why are there so many missing gaps",
See above.
etc. Teaching evolution straight on is no different than forcing creationism straight on.
It is. Creationism implies a creator, which implies religious dogma, which implies certain moral and/or lifestyle choices.
Evolution simply states what the scientific community currently regards as the facts, and an understanding of which is necessary to go into certain scientific/medical fields. It makes no religious claims. That is why there are Christians who accept evolution (including the Catholic church, in fact).
 
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LittleNipper

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Children are not idiots. Children are most usually very honest about their feelings, unlike some adults who have serious entangling schemes to hide.
 
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mpok1519

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animals have shown that they can understand concepts such as happy, sad, good, bad, harmful benefitial; certain animals have shown mathematical ability; yes they have taight gorillas basic math and chimps have even been shown to do basic algebra (5 + 3 = X, 1 + X = 9, find X); dolphins have been known to save humans from drowning, and sharks.

Animals do use reasoning. ("hey, my master's is home, I am hungry, if I go ask him for food, he might give me some, because he has before in the past.") its the same reasoning we use to get out of bed everyday. ("I need to go to work to make money to buy food because Im hungry")

Who's to say instinct isn't the EXACT same thing as reasoning; just because when we think, words go throough our heads, instead of ideas, feelings, memories, images and experience as does with animals, means we "think" but animals do not? Sure, our brain capacity and cognitive process may be more complicated, but its a relatively blanketing and assumptive statement to say "animals do not use reasoning or logic" because they do.

A chimp reasons that if I put a stick into a termite mound, "I'll be able to get at them without getting bitten all over on my hand". Or, "This rock can break this nut to get at the good insides (there are even birds that do the same thing). A chimp uses the logic of trial and error; yes, it may have been taught by their progenitors, but when it first happened, the reasoning had to come from somewhere; the mind of the animal. Instinct, logic, thought, cognitive reflex, all stem from this culmination of millenia of inherited experience and existence.

if I am sad, my cat somehow knows it and tries to cheer me up. ~shrug~

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and reptiles are quite a diverse kingdom of animalia; they are not near to being close to the same. And Iguana shares less dna in common with a taipan than humans share with chimps....
 
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