Jesus and the Trinity

[stranger]

When the spirit entered Adam and he became a living soul, we do not view that spirit as a different person than Adam ...

Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Thus why would one do so when the holy spirit came into Jesus?

Mt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Equally how can one say that God the Father is a person, God is spirit, not a person ... it is just anthropomorphism ..

 

[Odsolo]

God is 'oneness' , not divided into persons ...

Trinitarians do NOT separate or divide God. This is a straw man argument.

Equally how can one say that God the Father is a person, God is spirit, not a person ... it is just anthropomorphism ..

Which is the anthropomorphism? That God is a person of that God is Spirit? The Bible also says that, "God is love" and that "God is light."

 

[G4m]

Hi G4m,

Hey!

You're contradicting your own link:


Originally, the "Shema'" consisted only of the one verse, Deut. vi. 4 (see Suk. 42a; Ber. 13b); the regular "Shema'" in the liturgy, however, consists of three portions: Deut. vi. 4-9, xi. 13-21, and Num. xv. 37-41.

Not at all:

Initial word of the verse, or chapter, recited as the confession of the Jewish faith. Originally, the "Shema'" consisted only of the one verse, Deut. vi. 4 (see Suk. 42a; Ber. 13b); the regular "Shema'" in the liturgy, however, consists of three portions: Deut. vi. 4-9, xi. 13-21, and Num. xv. 37-41. The first verse, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord," has ever been regarded as the confession of belief in the One God. The first of the three portions of the "Shema'" contains the command to love God with heart, soul, and might;

Emphasis is mine.

I'm not dogmatic on this issue, nor averse to it, but originally the Shema consisted only of Deut. 6:4 as your own link also agrees with me . So my point remains.

No, the link above says the first portion of the shema contains the command to love God.

At most you could say Jesus defines loving God as part of the first command since Deut 6:4 comes before loving God.

No, at most you could say both are part of the first commandment, as in Matthew Jesus is only recorded as defining loving God as the first commandment.

Yes, provided you start off with Deut. 6:4, for you can't love what you ill define or have not defined.

Not much more to say if you disagree with what is recorded in scripture, Jesus said loving God is the first commandment, so does the Jewish resource I quoted:


Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

best wishes,

You too!

 

[stranger]

Yes, provided you start off with Deut. 6:4, for you can't love what you ill define or have not defined.

I have great sympathy with both viewpoints epressed here , and it seems to me that both are right in their way , but go wrong as usual by not including the other ... my apprach rather to integrate all experinece and all scripture as one since God is one...

Thus to try [vainly] to explain, the commands in OT were given to Israel, not yet to mankind in general ... bear with me on this

the commands of Jesus were given only to those to whom he is truly Lord , those who can obey him ... the disciples, the few whoreceive baptism of the spirit in this life leading to all truthof God [John 16:13]...

the point then is that Israel are the firstfruits of the spirit of truth, not men in general, not even the many that are called, just the chosen few saints of Israel in THIS life ... but why? ... simply because God sets up the perfected priesthood [Exodus 19:6, 1Pet 2:9-10] FIRST so that they are able to then minsiter to the many afterward ... it is not a mystery! ...priests are for ministerinng , kings are for ruling people ...

thus when? when will God baptise ALL people with the spirit of truth into all His truth as He promises He will [Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17]?

Clearly our sons and daughters do not all prophesy as yet and many people died without all truth of God already who will not live againuntil the second resurrection in the riighteous new earth... thus the command of God to love Him and all men will not fall on all men UNTIL we CAN do these things , until we CAN be righteous [as maybe our hearts long to be , even now, but we still sin, all but the few saints of this life]

Thus indeed we cannot love god in spirit until we are baptised of thespirit, and clearly God could hardly expect us to!

And the reason we cannot obey , even despite desire to do so, is simply that we have nOT yet been baptised of the spirit into all truth. we do not have the truth of Gd to defeat Satan's wily temptations yet ...

So I believe you are both right , but I am far from sure my words will convince you of that , or that you can accept the biblical explanation offered.. any thoughts on that ?

 

[stranger]

Trinitarians do NOT separate or divide God. This is a straw man argument.

I doubt that you can speak for all and question why you would try, but I am glad this is true for yourseldf and thse you know of ... but i still do not see why you think God is three , not one, and I do not see how spirit becomes a person without a body , still less can I see how spirit becomes three persons that are not different or divided ...

God the Father is spirit, not a person

The spirit of truth of God the Father Himself is just one spirit of God amongst over tenmentioned in scripture , but none of them are persons and they are not one but many different spirits of God , some evil ,some truth, etc

Jesus was indeed a person but his body was translated to immoratl spirit, he is no longer a person ...

So where are these persons ???

Equally if one wants to count things then they have to have some identifying feature that tells one what belongs to the group and what is excluded , but if one includes God the Father , Jesus, and the holy spirit in the group for counting, then how does one EXCLUDE Melchizedek and the spirts of God other then the holy spirit... if the first three were classed as 'persons' somehow, then how are these others not also 'persons' ???

Inwhich case the count was wrong, it is far more than three ... there is just no basis I van see for stopping at three if one counts the facets of god one might look at ...

Which is the anthropomorphism? That God is a person of that God is Spirit? The Bible also says that, "God is love" and that "God is light."

The anthropomorphism is the claim that God is a person , none of the others are anthropomorphisms ...

 

[Odsolo]

Trinitarians do NOT separate or divide God. This is a straw man argument.

but i still do not see why you think God is three , not one, and I do not see how spirit becomes a person without a body , still less can I see how spirit becomes three persons that are not different or divided ...

God is one, I have never said otherwise. Are you sure you know what Trinity means? Do you know the definition of person? It is NOT synonymous with "human being."

God the Father is spirit, not a person

God is also light and love. How does that prevent God from being a "person." Jesus said he was a man.

The spirit of truth of God the Father Himself is just one spirit of God amongst over tenmentioned in scripture , but none of them are persons and they are not one but many different spirits of God , some evil ,some truth, etc

In both the O.T. there are only three that are called God, in the N.T. it is father, son and holy spirit. They each have a distinct mind, self, and will. None of the other things do.

Jesus was indeed a person but his body was translated to immoratl spirit, he is no longer a person ...

By the definition of person in the dictonary Jesus most certainly is a person.

So where are these persons ???

Where the Bible says they are.

how does one EXCLUDE Melchizedek and the spirts of God other then the holy spirit... if the first three were classed as 'persons' somehow, then how are these others not also 'persons' ???

Melchizedek was a human being, a priest, he is NOT called God. These other spirits you mention do they have a distinct mind, self, and will?

Inwhich case the count was wrong, it is far more than three ... there is just no basis I van see for stopping at three if one counts the facets of god one might look at ...

Other than F,S, and HS, there is nothing associated with God, that is called God, that has a distinct self, mind, and will.

The anthropomorphism is the claim that God is a person , none of the others are anthropomorphisms ...

Nothing you have said, fits the definition of anthropomorphism.

Anthropomorphism, a form of personification (applying human or animal qualities to inanimate objects) and similar to prosopopoeia (adopting the persona of another person), is the attribution of human characteristics and qualities to non-human beings, objects, or natural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown authors of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphosis.​

 

[stranger]

God is one, I have never said otherwise. Are you sure you know what Trinity means?

I know what people say it means, but what they say makes no sense to me when one examines it ...

Do you know the definition of person? It is NOT synonymous with "human being."

I know what i thinka person is, and what the dictionaary thinks a person is , I do not yet know what you think a person is...

God is also light and love. How does that prevent God from being a "person." Jesus said he was a man.

I am quite aware that Jesus was a man for a while , but I am not clear how a spirit can be a person ... but even if God were a person, He would be one person, not three .... when my spirit leaves me at death there are not then two persons , God's spirit could in no sense be a different person than God

In both the O.T. there are only three that are called God, in the N.T. it is father, son and holy spirit. They each have a distinct mind, self, and will. None of the other things do.

I think it is very clear that Melchizedek had a mind, self and spirit ...

I am not clear how you think the holy spirit of God had a mind ,self, amd will separate from God's mind, self ,and will

job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him?

the will of Jesus too seems to be the same will as God:-

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

God's will is clearly not distinct from His spirit either

The mind also does not stay distinct from the mind of God , surely you cannot really be saying that Jesus' mind and that of the holyspirit are distinct from God's mind ???

As for self, that is something men have ,but I cannot attach any meaning to a self of God ... Jesus' self would be the best model , but Jesus was selfless in extreme ... so i only see ONE thing that could be the self of God, Jesus' self ...

thus there simply are no three persons , by your own definition ... there are not three selves, not three wills, not three minds... there is but one ...

but even if there were three of each of these in some view of things which I cannot see, then Melchizedek and the other spirits of God have equal call , the count would not be three, but a dozen or more ...

Ro 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

By the definition of person in the dictonary Jesus most certainly is a person.

rather Jesus was a man ... I did not dispute that ,but it does not change anything , why raise it , it is not an issue here ???

Melchizedek was a human being, a priest, he is NOT called God.

You are mistaken, read it again ,Melchizedek is immortal , like the Son od god, as we might be as sons of God :-

Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

The bible talks of many who are gods , not just three :-

Ps 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Ge 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Ge 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I think you had better consider increasing the count from three really, if you must count beyond one ...

These other spirits you mention do they have a distinct mind, self, and will?

Again it isn't me that says this ,it is the scripture , do not turn it into a personal contest , just seek the one truth co-operatively ...

I do not think God's spirit has a mind , will or self separate from god, but if the holy spirit did thenso would the sven spirits and all evil spirits from God because they are all spirits of God ... if you want to see them as separate from God then you must count them all , personally i don't see God as separate from His own spirit, God IS His spirit, God is spirit! but ONE spirit , not two , not the spirit of the Father and a separate holy spirit ... the holy spirit is the spirit of the Father , not a different spirit ...

Other than F,S, and HS, there is nothing associated with God, that is called God, that has a distinct self, mind, and will.

again the many passages above and the passages about Melchizedek show this is just not so ...

Nothing you have said, fits the definition of anthropomorphism.

Anthropomorphism, a form of personification (applying human or animal qualities to inanimate objects) and similar to prosopopoeia (adopting the persona of another person), is the attribution of human characteristics and qualities to non-human beings, objects, or natural phenomena. Animals, forces of nature, and unseen or unknown authors of chance are frequent subjects of anthropomorphosis.​

Try looking again, to view God the Father as if He were a man instead of being spirit is anthropomorphism... try another dictionary if you cannot see that from this defnition you gave ...

 

[hybrid]

Yeah, it can be a nice opportunity to catch up with family as most families get together at that time. I don't know the exact day that Jesus was born, I have read somewhere around October, I know from Bible evidence that Jesus was not born in December. That is inspired Words from God and I believe them to be true over any earthly wisdom.

It was April 6, 4BC. If the planet Jupiter is to believed as the star of Bethlehem that the magi followed. I got that from Discovery Channel.

I agree we live in a pagan world, let's not forget who the prince of this world is!! Revelation 12:9 says that Satan deceived "the whole world" so many people are unaware of what is christian and what is pagan, I consider it an important issue when we are attributing christianity to pagan celebrations and festivals, I do not believe God would have it this way. I believe that God winks at our ignorance, but if we have the chance to find these things out for ourselves and we don't, then I believe we are held accountable.

Now which is which, did Christianity assimilated the pagan world or paganism assimilated Christianity?

For example, people loved rock and roll music. They don’t care what the lyrics are, they just want to go with the beat.

If some Christians musicians make rock and roll music with the gospel message on the lyrics so people can listen to them even subconsciously, who was being assimilated, the Christian musician or the worldly rockers?

IMO, Christmas, easters and valentines are not threats to christianity. False teachers and false teachings are.

Sorry I should be more clear, I do not believe that the Athanasian Creed describes the Father and the Son accurately.

I like Nicene creed better.

I believe they are two separate persons, but the Athanasian Creed states that they can neither be confounded nor the substance divided. What does that make them?

Let’s read the verse:
“That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.”

Hmm, neither confounding the persons means you cannot be a modalist nor an arian. Nor dividing the substance means you cannot be a ditheist nor tritheist.

This hypostasis!! whatever that is.

If you mean hupostases union, its Jesus the man and Christ the spirit from god. JesusChrist, your ticket to heaven!

The Bible clearly illustrates two separate persons, but they are one in spirit, mind, purpose and accord, just like Jesus prayed for us to be one with Him.

If you see only the man Jesus, it was easy to say that he was separate from the father, but if you can see the spirit of Christ in the man JEsus, he is always “attached” to the spirit of the father, for their spirit is one as god is one spirit.

It’s more like god the father extended himself and entered creation, and that extension took a human form in the person of Jesus Christ, the son of god. And the extension was never broken and always attached to the father. So that jesus Christ was always connected and one with the father. And at the same time attached to people who believes in him. Literally the bridge between god and man!


Hope that explains it better for you or do you have a clue what I am talking about?

.

 

[Balthasar]

Ok re-wind... a subject as serious as placing Jesus Christ (apparently just a man) on a level plane with Almighty God would have been very concerning for a first century Jew, a subject that would have received so much controversy and documented debate that it would have been the main point of discussion and persecution among the early preachers. Yet instead all we find are Christians trying to convince others that Jesus was the promised messiah sent to give his soul for others, he even said so himself in John 17:3 when he didn’t include himself in the category of “Only True God”, and presented himself as the one who was “sent”. If Jesus were Almighty God and indeed the OTG then you would have thought that he could get his story straight, without having to rely on 4th century doctrine makers to do all of his explaining for him.

The short of it is, there were no modern Trinitarian in the early church, none at all. It’s only when those 4th century theologians began to leave clear scriptural teachings and formulate doctrines of their own that the controversy began…and it began with a bang, it wasn’t quiet like you would lead everyone to believe.



Many thanks.

I coudn't have said it better. This is how Peter treats Jesus, even after his resurrection:

"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles... This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge... but God raised him up from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep it's hold on him... Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave,.. God has raised this Jesus to life.. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit..."(Acts. 2:22-38)

Now from the above, any rational and fair minded person must note that Jesus is not God.



best wishes,

 

[Balthasar]

Hi G4m,

No, the link above says the first portion of the shema contains the command to love God.

This is the first portion of the Shema:

Deut 6:4,"Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Could you please show me where it says to love God here?

Not much more to say if you disagree with what is recorded in scripture,

Exactly!

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Try Mark.12:29 on for size. Jesus starts off with the following:

"The most important one", answered Jesus,"is this: Hear, O Israel, the lord our God, the lord is One. ..."

best wishes,

 

[Balthasar]

Hi Odsolo,

Nebuchadnezzaer is NOT called "king of kings."

You're wrong. Read Ezekiel 26:7.

And this proves abso-diddly squat.

And that's not an answer.

Yes let's ignore the actual words of scripture and make it fit the JW doctrine.

Alpha and Omega in the early church...
The Stromata, Or Miscellanies., Book IV.

Chap. XXV.—....
Cyprian, Three Books of Testimonies, Second book. (ca. 248 AD) etc.

Read my last post to you again and see how I have already addressed this issue. -- to which your only reply to date has been "and this proves abso-didly squat."

best wishes,

 

[Balthasar]

Hi,

I could not agree with you more, can we define this belief as…


Two persons (Father and son) who are “one in sprit”?


Now compare with a traditional orthodox Trinitarian definition…


“In the unity of the godhead(godhood) are three persons in one substance (spirit).”


Quite similar to what you believe in this statement of yours.


.

Gregory of Nyssa would agree. He would say three men are actually three instances of Man. Gregory of Nyssa would say just as three men are many persons yet one human-nature (being/nature), God is one God (being/nature) though he's three persons .

Would you agree?

 

[Balthasar]

Hi Odsolo,

Here are two verses which state that God is a man. Ex 15:3, but before you even start with the arguments, the writer of Exodus used the specific word for man. Had he simply wanted to say that God was a warrior he would have used the word "sa'an"

Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man [[size=+1]אישׁ[/size]] of war: the LORD is his name.









H376 [size=+1]אישׁ[/size] 'iysh eesh
Contracted for H582 (or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant); a man as an individual or a male person; often used as an adjunct to a more definite term (and in such cases frequently not expressed in translation.) : - also, another, any (man), a certain, + champion, consent, each, every (one), fellow, [foot-, husband-] man, (good-, great, mighty) man, he, high (degree), him (that is), husband, man [-kind], + none, one, people, person, + steward, what (man) soever, whoso (-ever), worthy. Compare H802.

H5431 [size=+1]סאן[/size] sa'an saw-an'
A primitive root; to be miry; used only as denominative from H5430; to shoe, that is, (active participle) a soldier shod: - warrior.









​

I don't know what you're trying to prove with your cut and paste but trinitarians( and others who believe Jesus is God) seldom deny the relevant passages in Samuel, Hosea and Numbers state God is not a man; they know gramatically they have no case. The usual tact is to admit God is not a man "in the present tense" but leave open the possibility that he could have become a man some time in the future. Following is one such exchange between a Hebrew speaking Jew , and a Christian who believes Jesus is God(notice this fella doesn't deny God is not a man, ref. the relevant verses):

http://members.aol.com/kingdavid10/Letters/LetterJesusSavior2.html



Christian : "Both are speaking in present tense. They say God is not a man, but not that God will never manifest Himself into human form. In fact, even in the Old Testament, He manifests Himself into human form on occasion (like when He appears before Abraham or when He wrestles with Jacob). "



Jew:

"I see for sure you do not know the Hebrew. God is always present tense. He is unchangeable. No, God does not have human form, God is not a human. With Abraham, it is a messenger [ 3 to be correct ] Two went to see Lot and one stayed behind. With Jacob, a messenger. Christians call them angels but in Hebrew, there are no angels. Jews borrowed Christian, angels. When you wrestle with a messenger sent from God, you have wrestled with God. God does not change. He is unchangeable. "

The Jewish person does have a point, since by nature and according to the bible God does not and cannot change.

Jesus said that God was a man. Now let the special pleading begin.

Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.


















​

No where in John 8:17 or 18 does Jesus say God is a man. Had John 17:18 read, "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me is another man who beareth witness of me" you might have had a case!

You're probably unaware of this but Unitarians use John 8:17-18 as one of the strong proof texts against the trinity! Why? Because Jesus here clearly distinguishes himself from God the Father the way two men are distinguished from each another!! So you must argue two men are actually one man(as Gregory does!) to remain consistent with your claim that the Father and Son are one God . In other words you would have to say two men are not really two men as Jesus said they are.
That would render Jesus a liar since the trinity says the Father and the Son are one Being but Jesus says the testimony of the Father and of the Son is like that of two human beings. There is no honest way around this predicament, trust me.

best wishes,

 

[hybrid]

Hi,



Gregory of Nyssa would agree. He would say three men are actually three instances of Man. Gregory of Nyssa would say just as three men are many persons yet one human-nature (being/nature), God is one God (being/nature) though he's three persons .

Would you agree?

The allegory has merit, i think he understood trinity. do you?

 

[Balthasar]

Hi hybrid,

The allegory has merit, i think he understood trinity. do you?

Yes, Gregory of Nyssa clearly understood the trinity. But it amazes me how many trinitarians here, even trinitarian leaders, do not . Following is a trinitarian preacher who , like Gregory, understands the trinity doctrine quite well.



http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page883.htm

THE GODHEAD -- ONE PERSON OR THREE??I believe that the scriptures teach that there are threeseparate persons in the Godhead: the Father, the Son and the HolySpirit. By this I mean that the Father is not the Son, neither is Hethe Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, neither is He the HolySpirit. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three separateexisting individuals. Now I am not saying there are three Gods. TheBible clearly teaches there is one God. Listen to Deuteronomy 6:4,"Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah." How is it thatthere is one God, but yet, three persons in the Godhead? Please staywith me for a few minutes and we shall see.Please note this question: Can two persons, or two people beone? Listen to the prayer of Jesus, "Neither for these only do Ipray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; thatthey may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thoudidst send me" (John 17:20-21). Question: Can two people, can tenpeople be one? Of course they can. Jesus so prayed that those whobelieve on Him might be one. Not one person, but one in aim, one indesires, one in purpose, one in plan, one is agreement, one inwords. Somewhat similar to Matthew 19:5, when Jesus said that husbandand wife should be one. Obviously husband and wife do not become oneperson, but they do become one. They are not one entity, they arestill two, but they are one is aim, in plans, in desires, etc.Jesus said that believers should be one. Is that possible? Ofcourse. Jesus prayed for it. As believers are still differentpersons, so are the Father and the Son different persons. Often we speak of the team. It may be a football team, abasketball team, a swimming team. We call them one because they allhave the same goals, the same desires, they all want to win thecontest. Now, they are not one person, but many; but they are oneteam. So it is with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. TheFather, the Son and the Holy are one in aim, in desires, in plans,in agreement, in purposes; yet they are three distinct persons,three distinct entities. And this we shall see as we proceed furtherin this study. Back to John 17:20: I read the passage once again. Please payclose attention, "That they all may be one (not one person); as thou(one person); Father, art in me and I (another person) in Thee, thatthey (many persons) may be one (not person) in us (more than oneperson); that the world may believe that thou (one person) hast sentme (another person). And the glory which thou (one person) hastgiven me (another person) I have given them (many persons); thatthey may be one (not person) even as we (more than one person) areone (not person)." Can you not see that Jesus Christ and the Fatherare not only one person, any more than the twelve apostles were onlyone person. They were twelve distinct persons, yet united in aimsand desires. So, likewise the Father and the Son are two distinctpersons, yet united in aims and desires.

I cannot agree with trinitarians that God is "one" same way a football team, a basketball team , Adam and Eve, or the Saints are "one". Either give up the trinity or the notion that God is one . Otherwise you're forced to say stuff like, "God is three persons but one being/nature" which is empirically and logically senseless.


best wishes,

 

[2ducklow]

Well, if GOD can give HIS glory to Jesus and Jesus is simply a created being just like any other human, and Jesus can give this glory to us, why can't we give the glory away to our pets or fellow humans.[/QUOTE]
I see you evaded for the second time all the various points I brought up to which you probably don't have an alternate answer. such as "god spoke in Jesus like he did in the prophets of old." heb. 1:1-2. or "god gave Jesus the words he spoke. John14:10. Do you believe Jesus did not speak of his ownself?Do you believe God spoke in Jesus? yes or no.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Do you believe the Father is god? do you believe God dwelled in Jesus? if so why do you say Jesus is god when the bible says God dwells in him?

Hebrews 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;

Do you believe God spoke to us In his Son?

if you answered yes to all these questions why cannot you believe that god spoke in Jesus when he said "I am the alpha and omega"? Whycan't you believe that God gave Jesus those words to say as John 14:10 says god did?
as to your question about why we can't give the glory that was given to Jesus which he gave to us. Basically it is because animals do not have spirits as we humans do. god relates to our spirit he talks to our spirits and our spirits communicates to our soul what god says to us. God is a spirit. Also one has to realize what the bible says that glory is that god gave not shared, god doesn't share his glory withanyone . the bible says god gave his own self to Jesus and that was the glory he gave to jesus and Jesus gave that self same glory to us, the abiding presence of god which adam lost before the foundation of the world or world system actually. Adam had that glory before he sinned and we have that glory restored to us because we are legally without sin because our debt has been paid.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


the glory thou gavest me not the glory I shared with thee.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

that glory is god's own self. we have been glorified with god's own self. those of us who know god and jesus

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

life eternal is knowing the father and the son, not believeing the trinity.

 

[Balthasar]

Hi 2ducklow,

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:


the glory thou gavest me not the glory I shared with thee.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

that glory is god's own self. we have been glorified with god's own self. those of us who know god and jesus

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

life eternal is knowing the father and the son, not believeing the trinity.

John 17:22 proves Christ was given the glory which he had with God before the world was, John 17:5. If Christ was God, he woudn't need to be given what already belonged to him.

Also, are you saying the "glory" given to the Saints is not the same "glory " given to Christ?That would make two different "glories" of God woudn't it?

best wishes

 

[hybrid]

Hi hybrid,



Yes, Gregory of Nyssa clearly understood the trinity. But it amazes me how many trinitarians here, even trinitarian leaders, do not . Following is a trinitarian preacher who , like Gregory, understands the trinity doctrine quite well.



http://home.att.net/~jackthompson/page883.htm[/font]

I cannot agree with trinitarians that God is "one" same way a football team, a basketball team , Adam or Eve, or the Saints are "one". Either give up the trinity or the notion that God is one . Otherwise you're forced to say stuff like, "God is three persons but one being/nature" which is empirically and logically senseless.


best wishes,

well i've read a lot of trinitarian definitions and explanations especially the modern ones that gives a bad name to trinity, have you heard about the 1 egg, yolk white and shell? or one sheet of paper folded into three?

if you havent got a clue. you'll surely think their non-sensical, can't blame you though.


.

 

[Balthasar]

Hi hybrid,

well i've read a lot of trinitarian definitions and explanations especially the modern ones that gives a bad name to trinity, have you heard about the 1 egg, yolk white and shell? or one sheet of paper folded into three?

How about the one comparing God to ice water, gaseous water and liquid water!? And then there's the military analogy -- infantry, airforce and navy, yet still the same force.

To tell you the truth , the classic comparisons such as those furnished by Augustine and Gregory of Nyssa fare no better . According ot many, Gregory of Nyssa presents the "best" analogy of the trinity. But it makes very little sense. If you read his work Not Three Gods,Gregory actually ends up arguing it's an "abuse of language" to refer to three men as in Peter, John and James as three men.He says they are actually one Man.

if you havent got a clue. you'll surely think their non-sensical, can't blame you though.

It's not an exaggeration to say that most trinitarians haven't a clue as to what their doctrine truly entails. They have been taught it's a mystery, and not to ask too many questions. I can virtually guarantee that I know more about the trinity doctrine than anyone on these threads.


best wishes,

 

[Odsolo]

I don't know what you're trying to prove with your cut and paste but trinitarians( and others who believe Jesus is God) seldom deny the relevant passages in Samuel, Hosea and Numbers state God is not a man; they know gramatically they have no case. The usual tact is to admit God is not a man "in the present tense" but leave open the possibility that he could have become a man some time in the future. Following is one such exchange between a Hebrew speaking Jew , and a Christian who believes Jesus is God(notice this fella doesn't deny God is not a man, ref. the relevant verses):

Quoting scripure is NOT cutting and pasting. Cutting and pasting is what people who have no argument do, copy your entire argument from either a website or tract, etc. The quote you are referring to is not mine. If you want to argue about it go to that website. If you are capable, address my posts not some stuff you found online.

No where in John 8:17 or 18 does Jesus say God is a man. Had John 17:18 read, "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me is another man who beareth witness of me" you might have had a case!

Jesus places God in the class of men who can testify under Jewish law. Argue all you want the clear implication is there. I notice you ignored the other verse I posted. Hoping I would not notice?

You're probably unaware of this but Unitarians use John 8:17-18 as one of the strong proof texts against the trinity! Why? * * *

Irrelevant, does not address my argument. Smoke screen, red herring, bloviation.

That would render Jesus a liar since the trinity says the Father and the Son are one Being but Jesus says the testimony of the Father and of the Son is like that of two human beings. There is no honest way around this predicament, trust me.

The "Trinity" does not say anything. You have not correctly stated the "doctrine" of the Triune nature of God, i.e. Trinity. You haven't read your Bible. All I see is is parroting empty piece meal arguments from your religion. How many thrones in heaven, how many on the throne, where is Jesus sitting, how many on the throne?