Then you are saying that verse means if we do the evil Christ mentions, we will still go to heaven?
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And what is the "will of Him Who sent Jesus"? (The Father)
"Do good and go to heaven" is not the Gospel, it is "works based salvation" and it will save no one.
Then you are saying that verse means if we do the evil Christ mentions, we will still go to heaven?
Who is "good" other than God?
Who is "evil" when they are in Christ, born again, passed from death to life and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption?
No answer to the question? Only the dance around it? Common.
I will answer yours still, at least until it happens I'm the only one answering/not evading.
Who is good? Didn't Jesus just more than indicate we have to do good, and if we have to be do good, then it only stands to reason...we can. Here I go feeling stupid again just having to explain this stuff.
If they walk in the light, and do good, they are, well...doing good.
The ones who claim to be in Christ and do evil, and claim they can do so, and still get to heaven because they are in Christ.
Being obedient to God is far from a new concept, and those who say we do not have to be that, are only fooling them selves. Sure "good" can and does happen once we're saved, but if we do evil after we are saved/live in evil, are you saying we cannot lose that salvation?
Yes, I do understand all of this. It's interesting, what you said about the book of Job. There's a few different ways it can be useful to us. Chapter 31 might be worth revisiting.To be honest I seem to be reading it less and less. I just keep interpreting it as a futuristic prophecy that doesn't help me in my present circumstance.
There is of course the story of Job but my life isn't really like Job's. He had everything, lost what seemed to be everything on Earth, then had nothing but illness, and then gained it all back many fold. I have never had anything, things remain just as dull and meaningless, and everything thereafter is the future with zero indication that anything in life will change for the better.
So I am really struggling to find passages that directly relate to what I am experiencing right now. I am not just wandering the "desert" but experiencing an entire lifespan in the desert"....do you understand what I mean?
Being born again through faith in Christ and His sacrifice is not "dancing around" anything.
I'm not "evading" anything. I know perfectly well how serious sin is and how Scripture tells us we are all guilty before God, and apart from Christ and His sacrifice will not and cannot be saved
Jesus said no one is "good" but God. (And of course, He is God)
All in Christ, born again, are indeed walking in "the light." God does not leave His children in darkness.
Have you stopped sinning in "the flesh?"
Did you earn your own salvation by your good behavior?
Does the blood of Christ wash away sin, or does our "good" behaviour and "good works" do so?
If you have sinned even once (in the flesh) since being saved, in thought, word or deed, you too have "done evil."
Or do you think that your sin just isn't as bad as someone else's?
Still no answer.
Of course you are, you are not giving direct answers.
Then you are saying that Jesus expecting us to do the good I just pointed out to you, is not possible?
Jesus said we must do good and you say we cannot...think I'll go with Jesus on this one.
What you are trying to do is the same as I've seen before... make it impossible to be good so you can push your agenda of not having to be good, when Christs disagrees with you 100% right there in saying we need to do good. If we could not do it as you say we cannot, he would not have told us to do it.
None are good but God? no, no, that's not how it reads, none are "truly" good, I think is more in line with what Christ said, meaning no matter what, if we have done even one bad thing we cannot be truly, 100% good at anytime thereafter, but it doesn't mean, nor does it say we can't be good at all, as you would have us believe.
Jesus Agrees with me right there in the scripture we discuss. Only God is "truly" good/never once sinned.
Then you are saying they aren't living in sin? If so then they are fine. If they are living in sin they are not.
Of course not, not 100%, why do you ask?
My salvation was free at the onset, I am also free to act insincere, not be obedient to God and lose that salvation.
My belief in Jesus save me, and that belief includes, well...believing him.Believing him when he says those that do good go to heaven, and those that don't go to hell. Do I really need to post that verse again? and how can it possibly be any clearer?
And? Your point? You are aware of forgiveness for individual sin...correct? Christ would not have had to die if we were expected to be perfect.
Why are you even asking me that?
Thanks for the help anyway.
It's very very simple. People need to figure out for themselves to be responsible to love God for who He is and their neighbor. You just can't run around and say, "I'm abandoned, all this is God's fault". That's even far less funny when Flip Wilson went around with his comedy skit saying the Devil made him do it.T
So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?!
I feel your pain. I don't know your situation, I just know mine. Lots of people while very well intentioned, having never personally confronted great pain and anguish can't really give much advice to a hurting soul. I never understood the significance of Jesus words in luke 4:18, why he came, until well life happened to me as well. How do you even go on? Where is God? Why doesn't he give a flip? I get it. I have no good answers as to the why. I just know that he is there, and he does love us and we can't understand because we are not God. This is the faith part. Maybe it really isn't about this life at all. That's us believing in the kingdom of this world. What is this Kingdom of God that Jesus spoke of and where can we find that?That is nice of you to say but clearly false. I wouldn't be in this position if that was true. God is all powerful and will not be remotely affected by my destruction. It won't phase him. Not even a little...
Christ came for the handful of people who had at least some chance of being saved. Only a miracle can change my worldview now but God might not have any interest in seeing that happen...
It is beyond obvious that the Holy Spirit refuses to "enter [my] heart" until I somehow figure out why. This is what I mean by a total enigma. I could say out loud that I believe and trust him but he already knows that I don't trust him. It is a viscous cycle!
I have absolutely no idea how to get my head to trust him! So as a result the heart just screeches to a halt...
No, I cannot agree. To use an analogy, I had a leak in my shower awhile ago. I called a plumber. He fixed it.What exactly was the point of Jesus showing up? Is life like some reality TV show where you have to solve the puzzle of faith so you get a reward (heaven) at the end of it? Is our moment to moment existence just a silly game to him?
I find that to be incredibly strange. Why would he suffer the horrors of the cross just to play some silly game with our pathetic souls? This seems purely contradictory as I'm sure you would agree...
Didn't Jesus say that He wasn't going to leave us to be alone, but would send the Holy Spirit to be our guide and counsellor, to take His place in the lives of those who believe on Him. I guess you missed that bit.To summarize, Jesus was born as a human baby because he wanted to be born as one then grew up to teach wisdom and perform thousands of life changing miracles far beyond anything we could conceive of today. Then he finished it all off by taking on the combined misery and horror of the world for the salvation of sinners.
Immediately following his resurrection, his apostles dedicated their lives to spreading the message of what happened and what it means. Meanwhile, absolutely everything remained the same. Then they died and basically everything remained as awful as before. Sure there are still people spreading the message just like the apostles but there really isn't anything else going on. We are completely alone in this world and entirely left to our own devices. There are NO MIRACLES and I wouldn't even say that goodness holds much of any power whatsoever on this planet. Just think about how much effort, brilliance, talent, energy, and straight up luck it takes to heal people and rebuild your community. Now think about how incredibly easy it is for evil to get what it wants. Sure your spiritual fruits will earn you brownie points in heaven but you are still a small, insignificant, nothing of a person on this planet. You and I will never accomplish much of anything and God seems to refuse to empower us. He has zero interest in watching us defeat evil. In fact, you can find countless examples of Christians and other righteous people being totally crushed under-heel and the wicked taking total control for the vast majority of a nation's history.
So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?! I am not suggesting that he shoot down lightning bolts to blast the wicked I am suggestion that he EMPOWER the believers...but obviously he doesn't feel like doing that. Yes I realize that most of you don't feel alone or weak because you think the Holy Spirit is talking to you. That is wonderful. I feel happy for you. Beyond that there is no concrete evidence that God is even slightly interested in your time on Earth. He might be profoundly interested in where you spend eternity but this life is a completely disgusting waste of time. There is no hope that regular people will ever fight evil and win. In fact you will continuously cower before its might until you are lucky enough to breathe your last. It might seem like the good guys sometimes win but that victory is very very fleeting and the darkness swallows up what little progress they might have made.
I get the impression that most Christians are so focused on spiritual ideas and feelings that they never stop to contemplate just how utterly useless we all are when it comes to making a tangible positive impact on this planet.
Realistically speaking you will barely be able to take care of your own life and your family. Meanwhile, some psycho will gun down or bomb a hundred people effectively annihilating a thousand generations in an instant. Even the smallest mistake in life can have cataclysmic consequences and there is no possible way that you can avoid making them. Life is a joke and there are no miracles. What exactly was the point of Jesus showing up? Is life like some reality TV show where you have to solve the puzzle of faith so you get a reward (heaven) at the end of it? Is our moment to moment existence just a silly game to him?
I find that to be incredibly strange. Why would he suffer the horrors of the cross just to play some silly game with our pathetic souls? This seems purely contradictory as I'm sure you would agree...
The purpose of our life I think is to recognize the goodness of God and praise and honor him in all the things that we say and do and think and feel.So we're just supposed to sit around talking about spiritual stuff and then die?
Honestly this spiritual talk means nothing to me if I can't stop a baby from dying a slow horrible death.
The purpose of our life I think is to recognize the goodness of God and praise and honor him in all the things that we say and do and think and feel.
As long as there is evil in the world, we are to oppose it and destroy it. As long as there is suffering, we are to comfort those afflicted.
As long as there is loneliness, we are to love.
The way to stop a baby from dying a slow and horrible death is to be there for him, take him in your arms, wipe his brow, rub his back, do everything in your power to let him understand that he is loved and will be remembered as a precious gift from God.
The world is a mess, therefore create order in it. Strive. Focus. Make a plan for today, and a five year plan with goals of what you would like to achieve in the short term and the long term. Make an effort to find something to be thankful for each day.
Laugh. Failing that, walk around with a pencil sideways in your mouth to force your face into a smile. Let at least one person each day know that they are appreciated by you.
By all means, sit around talk about spiritual stuff with those who share similar interest too. Feed your soul with God.
The alternative is to enter into the dark world of depression and anxiety and hopelessness.
Yes you are. To be a genuine Christian believer you not only have to turn to Christ and believe in Him, but you have to take Him as your Lord as well as your Saviour, and then you have to turn right away from your sinful lifestyle to a life of holiness according to God's standards are clearly stated in the Bible. You can say what you like and come up with any theory you like about God, Christ, Christianity , religion, etc., but if you don't do the things I just said, you are lost and you will not have a place in heaven.How do you not see the incredible power of evil on this planet? Regardless of what God promises to do in the future, the horror is very real today and well into the foreseeable future. I'm just a moron who can barely affect anything, no family no kids, no talents, etc. So many babies die every day and God decides to keep my stupid self here. Meanwhile, psychopaths can destroy a thousand generations with minimal effort, parents can have 15+ kids and torture them all to the brink of death, and tiny microscopic organisms can annihilate millions. The first response from Christians is to just talk about sin as if I'm going to suddenly not notice what planet I'm on. Blaming this on the sin of mankind does not change the fact that evil is dominant and most of us are a complete joke. Just think about the time, energy, and vast riches required to get our best and brightest to solve tiny pieces of very large scale and complex problems. They usually fail too.
Meanwhile my useless self can barely support itself let alone help the teeming masses.
God is demanding that I praise his ethereal glory in an unseen realm that only exists in faith...and he'll burn my butt forever if I don't somehow discover this realm and pour my attention into it at the total exclusive of my very visceral and brutal reality.
am I missing something?
Yes you are. To be a genuine Christian believer you not only have to turn to Christ and believe in Him, but you have to take Him as your Lord as well as your Saviour, and then you have to turn right away from your sinful lifestyle to a life of holiness according to God's standards are clearly stated in the Bible. You can say what you like and come up with any theory you like about God, Christ, Christianity , religion, etc., but if you don't do the things I just said, you are lost and you will not have a place in heaven.
Maybe you are listening to the wrong voices. If you feel lost, then Jesus has come to seek and save you. That's what the Bible says about Jesus: He has come to seek and save that which is lost. He said that He did not come to heal the righteous, but to comfort and heal the sick and suffering. If you think that you have to be good enough to have Jesus be your Lord and Saviour, you have another think coming. The whole reason for Jesus coming to earth, dying on the cross, rising from the dead, and then sending the Holy Spirit into the Church, is to seek and save folks in exactly the same state as you.I've never had a place in heaven. I've been garbage since the day I was conceived. So when I'm finally tossed in the rubbish pit absolutely nobody will even care.I grew up on hate and I don't expect to ever experience anything other than God's hate. It won't even be a shock when he flings my worthless butt into the flame. I am trash.
If belief were a choice I would have chosen it already. But it isn't a choice. It belongs only to those who have it figured out (i.e normal people).
The irony is that I've had a very traditional lifestyle so there isn't much that really needs to be changed other than my head. That is the one thing I don't know how to change...maybe I should just give up and die.
Maybe you are listening to the wrong voices. If you feel lost, then Jesus has come to seek and save you. That's what the Bible says about Jesus: He has come to seek and save that which is lost. He said that He did not come to heal the righteous, but to comfort and heal the sick and suffering. If you think that you have to be good enough to have Jesus be your Lord and Saviour, you have another think coming. The whole reason for Jesus coming to earth, dying on the cross, rising from the dead, and then sending the Holy Spirit into the Church, is to seek and save folks in exactly the same state as you.
Look at Jesus Himself. He was born without a father. Joseph was going to cancel his wedding because his fiance was pregnant and he wasn't the father. Jesus was born in a stable and laid in the feeding trough. He was wrapped in the shroud they wrapped sheep in after they were slaughtered. He had to be ripped from his home and transported to Egypt because the ruler of the nation wanted to kill Him. When his parents brought Him back they couldn't go back to their home town, so they had to live in some small village in the backblocks of Galilee. He had to do manual work as a carpenter until He was 30. No promotions, no big wage rises. Joseph disappeared from the scene, so he must have passed away while Jesus was relatively young, and His mother had to raise Him and his brothers and sisters on her own. He never had a home of His own, or had a flash motor vehicle, even though His ministry was famous throughout the land. His finances were supplied by His supporters, He was accused of being a fake, a magician, and using the powers of the devil in His miraculous ministry. He was arrested as a common criminal, stripped naked, beaten raw, put to open shame before everyone who had turned against Him. The only ones who were there to see him die slowly,naked on a rough wooden cross were his mother, John, and Mary Magdalene. Everyone else spat at Him, goaded and insulted Him and ridiculed Him because He could not come down from the cross to prove that He was their messiah. It was only the intervention of a wealthy guy offering his own tomb, that Jesus was not thrown into an unmarked grave.
So this is the Person who has come to seek and save you. Have you gone through what Jesus went through for you? If you think you are trash, just think that people who were crucified were thrown out like trash into a place where their bodies were burned alongside the other trash in the rubbish heap. Jesus could have ended up like that, for you!
Do you think that Jesus could be a suitable Saviour for you? How much do you think He loves you that He would go through all that, just for you, as if you were the only one He came to suffer and die for? Have you thought about that?
When you think about it, Jesus was just like you, and He probably felt like it at times, because He was an ordinary man before He rose from the dead. He taught and healed people during the day, and went alone before His Father at night praying with strong crying and tears to get the strength to do what the Father wanted Him to do. In the Garden of Gethsemone, Jesus agonised because He didn't want to go through what He knew was going to happen to Him, and He pleaded with the Father if there was any way it could be avoided. He knew that it could not be avoided, and angels had to come to give Him the strength to go through the trial, ridicule, beatings, and a slow death by crucifixion as a common criminal. The Jesus that many gospel preachers speak about is quite different to the real Jesus, because presenting the real Jesus and what He went through for us is almost too horrible to contemplate.
So do you reckon that the Jesus I have told you about would take the time to seek you out, save you and make you a totally new person, cleansed from sin and living a holy life full of love, peace and joy? I think so.
This is because Jesus does not treat us as if we were just one in a crowd or one of a set of numbers. He knows His sheep by name. Even though He deals with millions of people at once all over the world, when He fellowships with you, it is as if you are the only one He cares about right now. Jesus loves you so much that if you were the only one in the world whom He came to save, He would have done it all for you. He emphasised that when He told about leaving the ninetynine sheep and went to find the one lost sheep. This is not really about you and that you are somehow special than everyone else, but it shows the great love of Jesus for you and what a wonderful Saviour He is.Most of that made sense. The only question I have is where in the scripture does it say that Jesus would do all that if I was the only person in the world? Yes he did treat people as individuals during his ministry but it still seems to me that the cross was for the sheer number of people who would be saved.
Did YHVH answer your question yet ? (Reveal the Truth to you)So my question is: why would Jesus come into the world as he did and die as he did and then....completely abandon everyone?!
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