JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[Leaf473]

My view isn't worth a penny.

This is what God said:

The point of the Sabbath is to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. It's also a day to be a delight and joy. Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,

The Pharisee's were making the day the opposite of what God wanted His Sabbath to be about. They were more concerned about with the things you can't do on God's holy Sabbath instead of making it a day about God- holy communion with our Savior. Walking in nature and eating a berry is not work. If they were in the farms spending all day outside picking berries, that is work. I hope you can see the difference.

My view isn't worth a penny.

This is what God said:

The point of the Sabbath is to keep it holy. Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. It's also a day to be a delight and joy. Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,

The Pharisee's were making the day the opposite of what God wanted His Sabbath to be about. They were more concerned about with the things you can't do on God's holy Sabbath instead of making it a day about God- holy communion with our Savior. Walking in nature and eating a berry is not work. If they were in the farms spending all day outside picking berries, that is work. I hope you can see the difference.

Here's a set of verses that I found

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates;

Exodus 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
‘Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God, in which you shall not do any work— neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Jeremiah 17:22
Don’t carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day. Don’t do any work, but make the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your fathers.

So,
"not do any work"
compared to
"it is lawful to do good".

What word shall we use to talk about that? A clarification?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here's a set of verses that I found

Exodus 20:10
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates;

Exodus 31:14
You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 35:2
‘Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death.

Deuteronomy 5:14
but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God, in which you shall not do any work— neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Jeremiah 17:22
Don’t carry a burden out of your houses on the Sabbath day. Don’t do any work, but make the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your fathers.

So,
"not do any work"
compared to
"it is lawful to do good".

What word shall we use to talk about that? A clarification?

I’m not sure what you do not understand regarding the scriptures. God asked us to keep His Sabbath holy. We should do all our work in six days and the seventh day we rest from our work and keep the Sabbath day holy. This is one of the areas I think people get get so focused on the minute details, they lose the bigger picture and what’s important. If you stay focused on keeping God’s day holy like He asked, a day of communion with our Savior, you don’t need to listen to the other voice who is trying to take your focus away on what’s not important. I hope this helps.

 

[Leaf473]

I’m not sure what you do not understand regarding the scriptures. God asked us to keep His Sabbath holy. We should do all our work in six days and the seventh day we rest from our work and keep the Sabbath day holy. This is one of the areas I think people get get so focused on the minute details, they lose the bigger picture and what’s important. If you stay focused on keeping God’s day holy like He asked, a day of communion with our Savior, you don’t need to listen to the other voice who is trying to take your focus away on what’s not important. I hope this helps.

I understand the scriptures, I'm always interested in understanding better!
Proverbs 4:5
Get wisdom. Get understanding. Don’t forget, and don’t deviate from the words of my mouth.

My impression was that you disagreed with what I wrote here

Or if you prefer, he "clarified" the law, as another poster had described earlier on this thread.

If you didn't like the word "clarified", we can pick a different word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My impression was that you disagreed with what I wrote here

If you didn't like the word "clarified", we can pick a different word.

The word clarify is fine, it means:
make (a statement or situation) less confused and more clearly comprehensible.

You said

Jesus engaged in "binding and loosing" of the law

Which is not the same. That's why I stepped in, because I thought on our previous discussion I made it clear I think Jesus meant what He said when He said:

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

This is what you do when you fulfill God's laws:

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

When Jesus said fulfill He meant fill full, which makes sense and fits with the context He did not come to destroy the laws. Jesus went onto say: Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Anyway, just want to clear up I never said or meant my interpretation to be
"Jesus engaged in binding and loosing of the law".

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

The word clarify is fine, it means:
make (a statement or situation) less confused and more clearly comprehensible.

You said


Which is not the same.

Yes, I agree they are not the same.

That's why I stepped in, because I thought on our previous discussion I made it clear I think Jesus meant what He said when He said:

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Yes, you did make it clear that Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. And I agree!

Going from
Do no work
To
Do good work
is not destroying the law, it's clarifying it, that's a good word.

And our better understanding of the law based on what Jesus taught affects what physical actions we take.

This is what you do when you fulfill God's laws:

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

When Jesus said fulfill He meant fill full, which makes sense and fits with the context He did not come to destroy the laws. Jesus went onto say: Mathew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Absolutely! That "least of these commandments" would include what people sometimes call the "ceremonial laws". Yet we no longer take the physical actions described in the "ceremonial laws".

It's because of this situation that @Studyman and I were discussing what physical actions we take today.

Some physical actions have been tightened up, like don't say "you fool". And some have been loosened, like don't take an animal to the priest.

At least that's my understanding of what we were discussing.

Anyway, just want to clear up I never said or meant my interpretation to be
"Jesus engaged in binding and loosing of the law".

Right, and of course you're welcome to join back in at any time.

God bless!

God bless you, too!

 

[Bob S]

Jesus didn't destroy the Law, Israel had already done that. Because they destroyed God's covenant's laws gave the reason for Jesus coming. Jesus, the only one on Earth to keep the Law, fulfilled it then brought it to an end at Calvary Where He also ratified the new covenant. We are under the covenant of ❤.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, I agree they are not the same.


Yes, you did make it clear that Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. And I agree!

Going from
Do no work
To
Do good work
is not destroying the law, it's clarifying it, that's a good word.

And our better understanding of the law based on what Jesus taught affects what physical actions we take.


Absolutely! That "least of these commandments" would include what people sometimes call the "ceremonial laws". Yet we no longer take the physical actions described in the "ceremonial laws".

It's because of this situation that @Studyman and I were discussing what physical actions we take today.

Some physical actions have been tightened up, like don't say "you fool". And some have been loosened, like don't take an animal to the priest.

At least that's my understanding of what we were discussing.


Right, and of course you're welcome to join back in at any time.


God bless you, too!

This is where understanding which ordinances from the law of Moses was nailed to the cross. Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Note this does not say God's Commandments (the Ten) which are never called ordinances, they have always been called God's laws or Commandments. The law of Moses contained the ordinances. You seem to keep wanting to put God's commandments in Colossians, but it's clearly not referring to them and we have already been told they are eternal. Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8. I think common sense alone would tell you God does not think it's okay to lie, steal, vain His name or beak His Sabbath day.

I'm off for now hope you have a blessed day!

 

[Studyman]

Not at all, everyone is always welcome!


Well, maybe we see that differently.

I'm not aware of anything in the law that states that hate is always wrong.

I was responding to your post.

"He bound up the law about murder, saying that it included hating."

Jesus didn't teach anything different than what HIS Father had already written. The Mainstream preachers did, but Jesus didn't. God's Law has always taught not to Kill, and not to Hate your Brother. The "Them of old time" didn't teach the "hating" part.

"He loosened the law about the Sabbath, saying that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

It was always "LAWFUL" to do good on the Sabbath according to the Law. But what is God's Definition of "Good"?

Because of the influence of the religions of this land, you have been convinced that the Pharisees were following God's Laws, or as the deceivers say "Trying to Earn" Salvation by keeping God's Laws. This is a cleaver deception, designed to further what the serpent started with Eve. Basically teaching that God's instructions are not to be trusted for Salvation. And Jesus had to come and teach Truth where His Father failed.

Don't fall for this crap. It isn't true, if the Word's of the Scriptures are the source.

I think the psalmist was fully in line with what was stated in Torah when he wrote
Psalm 31:6 I hate those who regard lying vanities, but I trust in the Lord.

Jesus told both you and I who HIS Brothers, Sisters, and Mothers are. The Pharisees, or any other self proclaimed "minister of righteousness" who preaches falsehoods about the God of the Bible are not Jesus', nor my Brothers. We should hate Lawlessness, AKA "Evil", AKA "walking in the Flesh".

If you can turn away from all the influence of the religions of the land you were born into, and just concentrate on God's Word, you will see that Jesus treated the mainstream preachers of HIS time quite different than HE treated those who have been deceived by them.

Jesus engaged in "binding and loosing" of the law. Or if you prefer, he "clarified" the law, as another poster had described earlier on this thread.

Only because the religions of the world, who claimed to be God's Children, were preaching lies about Him. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, and many others who had access to God's Word knew the truth before Jesus came. And as such, knew Jesus when HE came. You also have access to God's Word. This is why I advise folks to study it "apart" from the religious franchises of this world.

I think that depends on how tightly a person understands
"You shall not do any work in it".

This is why Jesus said to "live by" EVERY Word of God, and not by the religious voice and franchises of this world. God defines His Sabbath, and "work", just as HE defines His New Covenant. You just need to be interested in HIS definition which "is righteousness". Most folks are only on here to justify their rejection of God's instructions.

Matt. 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I can say without doubt, that if a man followed this instruction without the influence of the "other voice" in the world we were placed in, he would be honoring God's Sabbath, and thankful that HE created it for him, like all the other examples of Faith in the bible, instead of working to find ways to justify his rebellion against it..

Jesus loosens or clarifies this to mean that you can do good work. Of course as Christians, good work is what we want to do 7 days a week!

Well that sure sounds religious, and certainly "appears" good. But wouldn't keeping God's Commandments be considered "Good" by Him? I mean, Isn't HE the one we are to please? To honor? To respect? To Submit to? One point of the Sabbath commandment was to separate it from the other 6 days of the week. Why did the Israelite's rebel against this separation so much? Why do modern religious men do the same thing? Why didn't Caleb rebel, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Peter?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful (GOOD) works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[Studyman]

Yes, I agree they are not the same.


Yes, you did make it clear that Jesus did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. And I agree!

Going from
Do no work
To
Do good work
is not destroying the law, it's clarifying it, that's a good word.

But Leaf,

My whole point is that you are getting your information "Doing no work", from "other voices", Not from God. If you were to study HIS Word, instead of simply following the recommendations of the religious philosophies of this land, you would not say this.

For instance, in the Chapter you chose to help you case regarding treating God's Sabbath the same as every other day, hear his Word.

Ex. 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

Where is your religious philosophy that these Laws of God were only to be obeyed 6 Days a Week?

5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Where does God say this is HIS LAW here only for 6 days, but not the 7th? This man isn't working his day job, he is following God's Sabbath. but that doesn't mean he rejects God's definition of Good.

6 Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.

7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.

9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

If I am walking in fellowship with my family or Spiritual Brothers, and I see a widow with a flat tire, shall I reject some of God's Laws just to keep the religious traditions of some religious franchise?

This is why Jesus said;

Matt. 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Just because the religions of this land pollute or reject God's Sabbaths and Laws, doesn't mean His People are to do the same.

 

[Leaf473]

This is where understanding which ordinances from the law of Moses was nailed to the cross. Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Note this does not say God's Commandments (the Ten) which are never called ordinances, they have always been called God's laws or Commandments. The law of Moses contained the ordinances. You seem to keep wanting to put God's commandments in Colossians, but it's clearly not referring to them and we have already been told they are eternal. Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8. I think common sense alone would yell you God does not think it's okay to lie, steal, vain His name or beak His Sabbath day.

Lots of great points in that part of your post, let me know if there's a particular one you want to discuss in detail at this time.

The part especially caught my attention was

I think common sense alone would yell you God does not think it's okay to lie, steal, vain His name or beak His Sabbath day.

I agree with the thrust of what you're saying there.

A frequent practice I've noticed in discussions about the law is talking about the extreme ends of the spectrum.

This would be a hypothetical example:
It's wrong to murder, right?
Yes.
And we don't need to sacrifice pigeons, right?
Yes again.
Then the conclusion is that some laws must be permanent and some must be temporary.

The issue I see is that there are a whole lot of laws "in the middle" where it's not obvious if they are temporary or permanent. And if a teaching can't handle the stuff "in the middle", I'm suspicious about the conclusions it has reached about the laws "at the ends".

That's why I ask about a list of permanent or temporary laws. Yet no one has ever responded to that request with their list.

Every earnest and sincere Bible student would theoretically arrive at the same list. Honest scholars over the years must have compiled such a list, it shouldn't be hard to find.

If you have such a list, please post it.

I'm off for now hope you have a blessed day!

I hope you have a blessed day as well!

 

[Leaf473]

I was responding to your post.

"He bound up the law about murder, saying that it included hating."

Jesus didn't teach anything different than what HIS Father had already written. The Mainstream preachers did, but Jesus didn't. God's Law has always taught not to Kill, and not to Hate your Brother.

You raise a good point!

I see after further review that what the scripture actually says is
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

I did a word search for every occurrence of "angry".
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

I don't see that what Jesus says is stated in the law.

The "Them of old time" didn't teach the "hating" part.

"He loosened the law about the Sabbath, saying that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

It was always "LAWFUL" to do good on the Sabbath according to the Law. But what is God's Definition of "Good"?

Because of the influence of the religions of this land, you have been convinced that the Pharisees were following God's Laws, or as the deceivers say "Trying to Earn" Salvation by keeping God's Laws. This is a cleaver deception, designed to further what the serpent started with Eve. Basically teaching that God's instructions are not to be trusted for Salvation. And Jesus had to come and teach Truth where His Father failed.

Don't fall for this crap. It isn't true, if the Word's of the Scriptures are the source.



Jesus told both you and I who HIS Brothers, Sisters, and Mothers are. The Pharisees, or any other self proclaimed "minister of righteousness" who preaches falsehoods about the God of the Bible are not Jesus', nor my Brothers. We should hate Lawlessness, AKA "Evil", AKA "walking in the Flesh".

If you can turn away from all the influence of the religions of the land you were born into, and just concentrate on God's Word, you will see that Jesus treated the mainstream preachers of HIS time quite different than HE treated those who have been deceived by them.



Only because the religions of the world, who claimed to be God's Children, were preaching lies about Him. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men, and many others who had access to God's Word knew the truth before Jesus came. And as such, knew Jesus when HE came. You also have access to God's Word. This is why I advise folks to study it "apart" from the religious franchises of this world.



This is why Jesus said to "live by" EVERY Word of God, and not by the religious voice and franchises of this world. God defines His Sabbath, and "work", just as HE defines His New Covenant. You just need to be interested in HIS definition which "is righteousness". Most folks are only on here to justify their rejection of God's instructions.

Matt. 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

I can say without doubt, that if a man followed this instruction without the influence of the "other voice" in the world we were placed in, he would be honoring God's Sabbath, and thankful that HE created it for him, like all the other examples of Faith in the bible, instead of working to find ways to justify his rebellion against it..



Well that sure sounds religious, and certainly "appears" good. But wouldn't keeping God's Commandments be considered "Good" by Him? I mean, Isn't HE the one we are to please? To honor? To respect? To Submit to? One point of the Sabbath commandment was to separate it from the other 6 days of the week. Why did the Israelite's rebel against this separation so much? Why do modern religious men do the same thing? Why didn't Caleb rebel, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, Peter?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful (GOOD) works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Lawlessness)

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Lots of great points in the rest of your post there. I'm on a cell phone, so I like to keep my posts short. Which point would you like me to respond to next?

 

[Leaf473]

But Leaf,
My whole point is that you are getting your information "Doing no work", from "other voices", Not from God.

I disagree. It comes from here
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it.

If you were to study HIS Word, instead of simply following the recommendations of the religious philosophies of this land, you would not say this.
For instance, in the Chapter you chose to help you case regarding treating God's Sabbath the same as every other day, hear his Word.
Ex. 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Where is your religious philosophy that these Laws of God were only to be obeyed 6 Days a Week?
5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.
Where does God say this is HIS LAW here only for 6 days, but not the 7th? This man isn't working his day job, he is following God's Sabbath. but that doesn't mean he rejects God's definition of Good.
6 Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.
7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.
8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.
9 Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger: for ye know the heart of a stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.
If I am walking in fellowship with my family or Spiritual Brothers, and I see a widow with a flat tire, shall I reject some of God's Laws just to keep the religious traditions of some religious franchise?
This is why Jesus said;
Matt. 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Just because the religions of this land pollute or reject God's Sabbaths and Laws, doesn't mean His People are to do the same.

Again, many great points. Let me know which one you'd like to talk about next.

 

[Leaf473]

@Studyman my man,

I'd like to get back to the train of thought we had been discussing.

In post 1820, I believe we already agreed that:
"we are following the Law and Prophets in obedience when we believe God's Words enough to "do them", and come to the Christ, our New High Priest, for these things they used to go to a Levite for."
JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

So we have already agreed that we no longer do the physical actions described in at least some of the laws, they are obeyed in a different fashion.

Then I believe you ask this

Maybe we can discuss "WHY" God created His Sabbath for man?

I posted a verse that talked about being refreshed.

I believe you asked me why I picked that verse, and I said it was the first one that came up in the word search.

And as far as I remember, that's where we are at.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Lots of great points in that part of your post, let me know if there's a particular one you want to discuss in detail at this time.

The part especially caught my attention was

I agree with the thrust of what you're saying there.

A frequent practice I've noticed in discussions about the law is talking about the extreme ends of the spectrum.

This would be a hypothetical example:
It's wrong to murder, right?
Yes.
And we don't need to sacrifice pigeons, right?
Yes again.
Then the conclusion is that some laws must be permanent and some must be temporary.

The issue I see is that there are a whole lot of laws "in the middle" where it's not obvious if they are temporary or permanent. And if a teaching can't handle the stuff "in the middle", I'm suspicious about the conclusions it has reached about the laws "at the ends".

That's why I ask about a list of permanent or temporary laws. Yet no one has ever responded to that request with their list.

Every earnest and sincere Bible student would theoretically arrive at the same list. Honest scholars over the years must have compiled such a list, it shouldn't be hard to find.

If you have such a list, please post it.


I hope you have a blessed day as well!

I am glad you agree some laws are permanent and some are shadows laws ending with Jesus as our sacrifice. The scriptures tells us God's Ten are eternal Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8 so my question to you is do you need to know each and every law before for you start to obey what laws you know are eternal now?

 

[Studyman]

You raise a good point!

I see after further review that what the scripture actually says is
Matthew 5:22 But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

I did a word search for every occurrence of "angry".
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

I don't see that what Jesus says is stated in the law.

"Anger" = from the Greek "orge", desire (as reaching forth or excitement of the mind) violent passion, or abhorrence, by implication "punishment:- anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. other meanings; "to provoke or enrage", become exasperated, soon angry.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Prov. 14:17 He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
Prov.25:23 The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.
Ecc. 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

Duet. 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

"Raca" (Greek) "rhaka" means "O Empty one" ie; "thou worthless", (as a term of utter vilification)

Hate, Hebrew= "sane", to hate (personally) enemy, foe, "hateful".

Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

I wouldn't place too much faith in Google, or the world wide web when "Seeking the Righteousness of God".

It was most certainly against God's Laws to bear a grudge, vilify, bear false witness, or unrighteously judge a "Brother", (Calling him worthless) that is, as Jesus Himself defines a brother, if one believes in him.

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

As a matter of Biblical Fact, begrudging your brother is one of the very first Laws of God exposed in the Torah.

Gen. 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

And the New Testament confirms this, of course.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


So how can you say, or who has convinced you "I don't see that what Jesus says (hating a brother without a cause) is stated in the law"

Other than the internet, where is your evidence that God's Law didn't include hating your Brother in your heart?

 

[Studyman]

I disagree. It comes from here
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. You shall not do any work in it.

Again, many great points. Let me know which one you'd like to talk about next.

The bold truth is that you can try, but God's Word does not justify rejecting a Commandment of God. Picking one verse, then ignoring the rest of the scriptures may be a way to justify a certain religious lifestyle, but does in no way justify disobedience.

I'll give you an example of this, there are many.

Gen. 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

So I could take this one verse and create a religion around it, or justify a religious philosophy by it. Or I could believe I am only an imagination as "ALL" Flesh was destroyed.

But if I follow the instructions of my High Priest, "Man shall live by Every Word of God", then I would come to know the Biblical truth about Noah, and the Ark.

It would be great if you would address and answer the questions I posed to you. Here, I'll post them again. I look forward to your response in this unbiased, honest examination of Scriptures we are we are engaging in.

"For instance, in the Chapter you chose to help your case regarding treating God's Sabbath the same as every other day, hear His Word.

Ex. 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

Where is your religious philosophy that these Laws of God were only to be obeyed 6 Days a Week?

5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Where does God say this is HIS LAW here only for 6 days, but not the 7th? This man isn't working his day job, he is following God's Sabbath. but that doesn't mean he rejects God's definition of Good."

These are great discussion for men t have in this Evil time.

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman my man,

I'd like to get back to the train of thought we had been discussing.

In post 1820, I believe we already agreed that:
"we are following the Law and Prophets in obedience when we believe God's Words enough to "do them", and come to the Christ, our New High Priest, for these things they used to go to a Levite for."
JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

So we have already agreed that we no longer do the physical actions described in at least some of the laws, they are obeyed in a different fashion.

No, I want to be clear. It's not that we don't submit to God with our body and mind. The Bible is clear on that. The question is, what physical requirement is the Law talking about? Paul discussed one such Law that we addressed.

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

There are physical requirements here. It's just that this Law was really never about feeding Oxen. Just like Jesus telling you that you can not enter heaven unless you eat His Flesh. There are physical requirements here, it's just up to us to "Study", not the internet or Calvin, or Benny Hinn, but the Holy Scriptures so we can, well, let me allow the Scriptures to tell you.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this worldor religions thereof) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The religions of this world will not teach you the truth about God, just as the Mainstream religions of Jesus' Time didn't teach the truth about God. Until we understand this Biblical Truth, we have no Light. As it is written.

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

That's why Jesus stayed in the Law and Testimony, and taught you and I to Live by Every Word of God. He is the Light, we can trust Him. The internet, popular religions or religious philosophers of this world, not so much.

 

[Leaf473]

I am glad you agree some laws are permanent and some are shadows laws ending with Jesus as our sacrifice. The scriptures tells us God's Ten are eternal Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8 so my question to you is do you need to know each and every law before for you start to obey what laws you know are eternal now?

The short answer to your post is Yes.

Has God made it hard to know which of his laws are eternal? Do you feel you know all of the ones that are eternal?

 

[Leaf473]

"Anger" = from the Greek "orge", desire (as reaching forth or excitement of the mind) violent passion, or abhorrence, by implication "punishment:- anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath. other meanings; "to provoke or enrage", become exasperated, soon angry.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Prov. 14:17 He that is soon angry dealeth foolishly: and a man of wicked devices is hated.
Prov.25:23 The north wind driveth away rain: so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.
Ecc. 7:9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.

Duet. 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

"Raca" (Greek) "rhaka" means "O Empty one" ie; "thou worthless", (as a term of utter vilification)

Hate, Hebrew= "sane", to hate (personally) enemy, foe, "hateful".

Lev. 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.

I wouldn't place too much faith in Google, or the world wide web when "Seeking the Righteousness of God".

It was most certainly against God's Laws to bear a grudge, vilify, bear false witness, or unrighteously judge a "Brother", (Calling him worthless) that is, as Jesus Himself defines a brother, if one believes in him.

Luke 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

As a matter of Biblical Fact, begrudging your brother is one of the very first Laws of God exposed in the Torah.

Gen. 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

And the New Testament confirms this, of course.

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.


So how can you say, or who has convinced you "I don't see that what Jesus says (hating a brother without a cause) is stated in the law"

Other than the internet, where is your evidence that God's Law didn't include hating your Brother in your heart?

This looks like a good place to start

I wouldn't place too much faith in Google, or the world wide web when "Seeking the Righteousness of God".

The link that I posted

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

tells the Bible Gateway search engine to find every occurrence of the word "angry" in the World English Bible.

Do you believe that it produced erroneous results?

 

[Leaf473]

The bold truth is that you can try, but God's Word does not justify rejecting a Commandment of God. Picking one verse, then ignoring the rest of the scriptures may be a way to justify a certain religious lifestyle, but does in no way justify disobedience.

I'll give you an example of this, there are many.

Gen. 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

So I could take this one verse and create a religion around it, or justify a religious philosophy by it. Or I could believe I am only an imagination as "ALL" Flesh was destroyed.

But if I follow the instructions of my High Priest, "Man shall live by Every Word of God", then I would come to know the Biblical truth about Noah, and the Ark.

It would be great if you would address and answer the questions I posed to you. Here, I'll post them again. I look forward to your response in this unbiased, honest examination of Scriptures we are we are engaging in.

"For instance, in the Chapter you chose to help your case regarding treating God's Sabbath the same as every other day, hear His Word.

Ex. 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

Where is your religious philosophy that these Laws of God were only to be obeyed 6 Days a Week?

5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Where does God say this is HIS LAW here only for 6 days, but not the 7th? This man isn't working his day job, he is following God's Sabbath. but that doesn't mean he rejects God's definition of Good."

These are great discussion for men t have in this Evil time.

Beginning here

The bold truth is that you can try, but God's Word does not justify rejecting a Commandment of God.

I'm not rejecting a Commandment of God.

It is Exodus that states,
"You shall not do any work in it."

Are there other passages in the scriptures that modify the commandments?

I think so. How the commandments are modified is what we are discussing, imo.

It would be great if you would address and answer the questions I posed to you. Here, I'll post them again. I look forward to your response in this unbiased, honest examination of Scriptures we are we are engaging in.

"For instance, in the Chapter you chose to help your case regarding treating God's Sabbath the same as every other day, hear His Word.

Ex. 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.

Where is your religious philosophy that these Laws of God were only to be obeyed 6 Days a Week?

The direct answer to your question is that my religious philosophy is in my mind. That would be true of everyone who is posting on this thread, since something has to be in your mind before you can turn it into words on a forum. But I know that's not what you're actually asking.

But to answer the thrust of your question, I believe that the Sabbath commandment and the "ox" commandment are modified by the passage in Galatians that says that the entire law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself.

So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience.

A example from life today would be, Would I want my neighbor to retrieve my trash can from the street on a windy day? Yes, with the same guidelines as above.