JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[Leaf473]

Good morning, SabbathBlessings!
I hope you had a pleasant rest.

For my part, I'm once again resolving this morning to try to keep my exchanges short

****************

It's the rebirth of the Earth after the millennium. And from one month to another and from one Sabbath to another we will come to worship the Lord.

Once again we have a different interpretation.

To me, if you've got sabbaths and a holy mountain and literal Jerusalem and priests and levites,
"New moon" fits best.

Especially in light of
Zechariah 14:16 It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Armies, and to keep the feast of tents. 17 It will be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Armies, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, and doesn't come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which the Lord will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Good morning, SabbathBlessings!
I hope you had a pleasant rest.

For my part, I'm once again resolving this morning to try to keep my exchanges short

****************


Once again we have a different interpretation.

To me, if you've got sabbaths and a holy mountain and literal Jerusalem and priests and levites,
"New moon" fits best.

Especially in light of
Zechariah 14:16 It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of Armies, and to keep the feast of tents. 17 It will be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn't go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of Armies, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn't go up, and doesn't come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which the Lord will strike the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that don't go up to keep the feast of tents.

Good morning Leaf,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on our interpretation of Isaiah 66.

Have a great day.

 

[Leaf473]

Good morning Leaf,

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on our interpretation of Isaiah 66.

Have a great day.

We can agree that we have different interpretations, yes!

You have a great day as well!

 

[Leaf473]

Your response here...

Thanks Leaf, Yes this answers my question. Thanks for being honest. Jesus does not teach anywhere in the bible that he fulfilled Gods' law so that we no longer have to. This teaching is against the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 5 and the opposite of what Jesus and all the Apostles in the new covenant taught and does not agree with the scriptures at all and the purpose of Gods' law in the new covenant.

What Jesus actually said was "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy but to fulfill them. Jesus goes on to say not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till Heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled and that whosoever breaks one of the least of these commandments shall be called the least in God's Kingdom and that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the external appearance of the Scribes and the Pharisees we shall in no wise enter into Gods' kingdom. - Matthew 5:17-20.

Jesus fulfilled and obeyed all the law and the prophets. He obeyed Gods' 10 commandments and the "shadow laws" for remission of sins and sin offerings, the Levitical Priesthood the earthly Sanctuary all pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all (John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10), and his role in the new covenant as our great High Priest *Hebrews 7:1-25 in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man of which the earthly was only a copy based on better promises of the new covenant *Hebrews 8:1-6. Jesus did not "fulfill" these laws like many teach today so that we do not have to. That is a false teaching and a denial of the very words of Jesus in Matthew 5:17-20 and Matthew 5 where Jesus magnifies the requirements of Gods' 10 commandments to our very thoughts and feelings in Matthew 5:21-22 and Matthew 5:27-28.

Jesus came to magnify God’s 10 commandment from the inside out quoting Matthew 5:17-32 (applying adultery and murder to our thoughts and feelings) in fulfillment of *Isaiah 42:21. This is to show that unless our righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees we can in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus is saying the problem runs deeper then outward observance to the 10 Commandments. Evil (moral wrong doing) begins in the heart. Breaking God's 10 commandments from the heart according to Jesus is what defiles a man in Matthew 15:18-19. Jesus is saying we can be outwardly perfect and blameless like the Scribes and Pharisee but inwardly like dead mans bones *Matthew 23:27-28.

Jesus magnified the law to the inside out. To show us that we are all sinners in need of a Savior and that sin originates in the heart (thoughts and feelings). That is why we have God’s new covenant promise to of a new heart to love and why we need to be born again by faith in God's Word for salvation to be free from sin (breaking any one of God's 10 commandments) *Hebrews 8:10-12; 1 John 3:3-10.

This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8.

Without Jesus we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42. We need to be born of God to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out and applying God’s 10 commandments to our very thoughts.

Whosoever is born of god to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not commit sin according to the scriptures in 1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospel in the new covenant. We have a Savior to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4.

1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow god's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. This results in a people that keep God’s law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; Romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *JOHN 3:3-7.

..................


CONCLUSION: Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN. God’s LAW (10 commandments) are not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and are born again to walk in God’s Spirit *1 John 3:6-9; Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4.

Hope this is helpful

Hello again LoveGodsWord,

I believe you had asked me to go through the scriptures in the above post.

We're now up to
Hebrews 10:10 ...by which will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This fits great with the fourth commandment. First God made a day holy. This points to the New covenant in which he has made us holy.

************

I believe this will be my third post to you regarding #1704. If it too goes unanswered, I'll consider stopping here, since I won't know if you're following what I'm saying or not.

Peace be with you, my Brother!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello again LoveGodsWord,

I believe you had asked me to go through the scriptures in the above post.

We're now up to
Hebrews 10:10 ...by which will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This fits great with the fourth commandment. First God made a day holy. This points to the New covenant in which he has made us holy.

************

I believe this will be my third post to you regarding #1704. If it too goes unanswered, I'll consider stopping here, since I won't know if you're following what I'm saying or not.

Peace be with you, my Brother!

Hello Leaf, sorry I have been away from this section of the thread for a bit. In regards to post # 1704 linked my question to you was not what do you think each scripture means but what do you disagree with in what was written in this post and the scriptures shared in this post that disagrees with your belief that Jesus fulfilled and obeyed Gods' 10 commandments so that we do not have to. The linked post is simply providing the scriptures showing why this teaching of lawlessness (without law) that many believe and teach today is not biblical. Hope this clarification is helpful. Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding my side.

 

[Leaf473]

Hello Leaf, sorry I have been away from this section of the thread for a bit.

No problem, glad to see you back!

I hope all is going well with your surgery experience.

In regards to post # 1704 linked my question to you was not what do you think each scripture means but what do you disagree with in what was written in this post and the scriptures shared in this post that disagrees with your belief that Jesus fulfilled and obeyed Gods' 10 commandments so that we do not have to. The linked post is simply providing the scriptures showing why this teaching of lawlessness (without law) that many believe and teach today is not biblical. Hope this clarification is helpful. Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding my side.

Yes, returning to post 1704, before I talk more about what I agree or disagree with, I'd like to be sure I understand what you're saying.

What Jesus actually said was "Think not that I am come to destroy the law...

Is Jesus here referring to the entire law, the Ten commandments, civil laws, and ceremonial laws?

...or the prophets I have not come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy but to fulfill them. Jesus goes on to say not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law...

Again, is this the entire law, the Ten commandments, civil laws, ceremonial laws?

...till Heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled and that whosoever breaks one of the least of these commandments...

Of the entire law? the Ten commandments, civil laws, ceremonial laws?

...shall be called the least in God's Kingdom and that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the external appearance of the Scribes and the Pharisees we shall in no wise enter into Gods' kingdom. - Matthew 5:17-20.

Since you're back on the thread, I don't have to assume I know what you are saying, I can ask you.

Here's looking forward to a good discussion!

 

[Leaf473]

Hope this clarification is helpful. Sorry if there has been any misunderstanding my side.

To be honest, I'm not sure what misunderstandings there have been on either side.

On a forum like this, misunderstandings are very common imo.

For this reason I think it is important to try to be kind and gentle,
remembering that all believers are members of one body, in which there is to be no division.

 

[Leaf473]

I have some more phone energy this morning, so I'll explain more how I see the situation.

What Jesus actually said was "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy the law or the prophets I have not come to destroy but to fulfill them. Jesus goes on to say not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law till Heaven and earth pass away and all be fulfilled and that whosoever breaks one of the least of these commandments shall be called the least in God's Kingdom and that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the external appearance of the Scribes and the Pharisees we shall in no wise enter into Gods' kingdom. - Matthew 5:17-20.

If Jesus is here referring to the entire law, the Ten commandments, civil laws, and ceremonial laws,
then one has to explain why we don't do and teach them.
Heaven and Earth are still here.

If, however, we say that Jesus just means the ten commandments plus some others,
then we have Jesus basically saying,
"Think not that I came to destroy the ten commandments plus some others and the prophets."
and
"Whoever breaks the least of the Ten commandments plus some others will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

Not only does the second option not really fit the context, but the "plus some others" list becomes critical, since we don't want to be called least in the Kingdom.

 

[Studyman]

I have some more phone energy this morning, so I'll explain more how I see the situation.


If Jesus is here referring to the entire law, the Ten commandments, civil laws, and ceremonial laws,
then one has to explain why we don't do and teach them.
Heaven and Earth are still here.

If, however, we say that Jesus just means the ten commandments plus some others,
then we have Jesus basically saying,
"Think not that I came to destroy the ten commandments plus some others and the prophets."
and
"Whoever breaks the least of the Ten commandments plus some others will be called least in the kingdom of heaven."

Not only does the second option not really fit the context, but the "plus some others" list becomes critical, since we don't want to be called least in the Kingdom.

I think it is important to remember that Jesus ushered in a New Priesthood, as prophesied. A Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek" and not after the "order of Aaron". A Priesthood in which HE administers God's Laws, not the Levite Priest as the Levitical Priesthood instructed. A Priesthood where HE atones for sins Himself, not the "Works of the Law" of Atonement given exclusively to Levi by Covenant on Mt. Sinai.

The "Order of Aaron" was always a shadow of this Priesthood Jesus would usher in. It was "temporary" from it's beginning, as God most surely knew Jesus, from the tribe of Judah, would become the High Priest "After those days".

So the "fulfillment" of this Priesthood was part of the Prophesy of the Law and Prophets.

This is why Jesus still promoted His Father's Sabbaths, yet did not sprinkle the blood of an animal when HE forgave sins, or cleansed Lepers.

We are now justified by Faith in this High Priest for Atonement, as the Law and Prophet's Prophesied, not the "Works of the Law" of the "Order of Aaron", given because of transgressions, "till the Seed should come".

As far as the Commandments of God, this Priesthood was the only thing that changed, if the Scriptures are to be believed.

 

[Leaf473]

I think it is important to remember that Jesus ushered in a New Priesthood, as prophesied. A Priesthood "After the Order of Melchizedek" and not after the "order of Aaron". A Priesthood in which HE administers God's Laws, not the Levite Priest as the Levitical Priesthood instructed. A Priesthood where HE atones for sins Himself, not the "Works of the Law" of Atonement given exclusively to Levi by Covenant on Mt. Sinai.

The "Order of Aaron" was always a shadow of this Priesthood Jesus would usher in. It was "temporary" from it's beginning, as God most surely knew Jesus, from the tribe of Judah, would become the High Priest "After those days".

So the "fulfillment" of this Priesthood was part of the Prophesy of the Law and Prophets.

This is why Jesus still promoted His Father's Sabbaths, yet did not sprinkle the blood of an animal when HE forgave sins, or cleansed Lepers.

We are now justified by Faith in this High Priest for Atonement, as the Law and Prophet's Prophesied, not the "Works of the Law" of the "Order of Aaron", given because of transgressions, "till the Seed should come".

As far as the Commandments of God, this Priesthood was the only thing that changed, if the Scriptures are to be believed.

So if I understand what you're saying right,
then Jesus is basically saying

"Think not that I came to destroy the law except for the priesthood,
and the prophets."
and
"Whoever breaks the least of the non-priesthood commandments will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven."

That's an interesting approach.
I talked earlier on this thread about the commandment to put fringes on your clothes. Do you do that?

 

[Studyman]

So if I understand what you're saying right,
then Jesus is basically saying

"Think not that I came to destroy the law except for the priesthood,
and the prophets."
and
"Whoever breaks the least of the non-priesthood commandments will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven."

No, That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the Levitical Priesthood, a law Abraham didn't have, wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Commandments, Statutes, and laws. And it was ADDED, "Till the SEED should come, "After those days". Jesus was that SEED, and as such brought an end to the "Order of Aaron" and ushered in the "Order of Melchizedek", which didn't require the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification.

It was the LAW, that "After those Days" the manner in which God's Law was administered would change, and the manner in which Sin was atoned for would change. As the Prophet Jeremiah, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, tells us.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,

OK, so here is the Creator of HIS NEW COVENANT, telling us what it is. We can trust Him to be truthful with us.

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So this begs the question, how was God's Law administered before "After those days"?

Duet. 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, (Levite Priests) saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

But Moses also prophesies of another Prophet.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

David also Prophesies of this Priest "after the order of Melchizedek", not Aaron.

Notice there is no mention of changing God's LAWS, only the manner in which they are administered.

Let's continue with listening to God define HIS OWN New Covenant..

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

And guess what, both you and I have the Oracles of God in our own homes, in our own mind. WE don't need to wait for, and go find a Levite Priest, or any preacher for that matter, to read God's Laws to us. As Promised, we all know Him and HIS Word's are in our own hands. All we need is belief, AKA, Faith.

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again, how were sins atoned for before "After those days"?

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

3 1And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

But "After those days", God Himself will forgive the iniquity without the "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood, a Law Abraham did not have as He was Justified "Apart from the Law" of atonement.

This isn't taught in the religions of the world we are born into, as prophesied, but it is taught in the Oracles of God we have in our own homes.

That's an interesting approach.
I talked earlier on this thread about the commandment to put fringes on your clothes. Do you do that?

For me, since I have committed myself to the God of the bible, I listen to His inspired Words, and not the "other voices" in the garden, or "Winds of Doctrine" as they are also called.

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Doth God care for Oxen, or fringes on Clothing? Or saith it altogether for our sake's? For our sake's no doubt it is written.

Maybe if religious men had not been convinced God lied to them, as Eve was convinced, or that God's Commandments are useless, and "Many" who come in Christ's Name Preach, they might actually study HIS Word for them self, and like Paul, maybe in their obedience God might keep His Promise to give them HIS Spirit of Truth so they can know what HE meant in the Parable of the Oxen treading out the grain, or what His Spiritual message of the fringes on the corners of clothes are.

These are the reasons for my understanding. I look forward to further discussion.

 

[Leaf473]

No, That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the Levitical Priesthood, a law Abraham didn't have, wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after Abraham obeyed God's Commandments, Statutes, and laws. And it was ADDED, "Till the SEED should come, "After those days". Jesus was that SEED, and as such brought an end to the "Order of Aaron" and ushered in the "Order of Melchizedek", which didn't require the Sacrificial "works of the Law" for justification.

It was the LAW, that "After those Days" the manner in which God's Law was administered would change, and the manner in which Sin was atoned for would change. As the Prophet Jeremiah, inspired by the Spirit of Christ, tells us.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD,

OK, so here is the Creator of HIS NEW COVENANT, telling us what it is. We can trust Him to be truthful with us.

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So this begs the question, how was God's Law administered before "After those days"?

Duet. 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

10 And Moses commanded them, (Levite Priests) saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

But Moses also prophesies of another Prophet.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

David also Prophesies of this Priest "after the order of Melchizedek", not Aaron.

Notice there is no mention of changing God's LAWS, only the manner in which they are administered.

Let's continue with listening to God define HIS OWN New Covenant..

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:

And guess what, both you and I have the Oracles of God in our own homes, in our own mind. WE don't need to wait for, and go find a Levite Priest, or any preacher for that matter, to read God's Laws to us. As Promised, we all know Him and HIS Word's are in our own hands. All we need is belief, AKA, Faith.

for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again, how were sins atoned for before "After those days"?

Lev. 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;

28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.

3 1And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

But "After those days", God Himself will forgive the iniquity without the "works of the Law" of the Levitical Priesthood, a Law Abraham did not have as He was Justified "Apart from the Law" of atonement.

This isn't taught in the religions of the world we are born into, as prophesied, but it is taught in the Oracles of God we have in our own homes.



For me, since I have committed myself to the God of the bible, I listen to His inspired Words, and not the "other voices" in the garden, or "Winds of Doctrine" as they are also called.

1 Cor. 9:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Doth God care for Oxen, or fringes on Clothing? Or saith it altogether for our sake's? For our sake's no doubt it is written.

Maybe if religious men had not been convinced God lied to them, as Eve was convinced, or that God's Commandments are useless, and "Many" who come in Christ's Name Preach, they might actually study HIS Word for them self, and like Paul, maybe in their obedience God might keep His Promise to give them HIS Spirit of Truth so they can know what HE meant in the Parable of the Oxen treading out the grain, or what His Spiritual message of the fringes on the corners of clothes are.

These are the reasons for my understanding. I look forward to further discussion.

Hmmm... Not sure if I'm following everything you're saying there.

In this section here:
Matthew 5 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The law and commandments that Jesus refers to, is that the law given through Moses, in your view? Or a different set of laws?

 

[Studyman]

Hmmm... Not sure if I'm following everything you're saying there.

In this section here:
Matthew 5 "Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The law and commandments that Jesus refers to, is that the law given through Moses, in your view? Or a different set of laws?

I just showed you where the Law and Prophets Foretold of a time where the manner in which God's Law is Administered would change, along with the manner in which Sin was forgiven. I posted it for your consideration. Did you read the Scripture?

It is the God of the Bible defining a NEW Covenant that was to come into being "AFTER those days". So Jesus becoming the High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" "After those days" was Law. The prophesied end of the Levitical Priesthood, and the beginning of the Melchizedek Priesthood was LAW. And it did come to Pass just as Jesus said in Matthew 5. He Fulfilled it. HE is that High Priest we go to for Atonement, just as Jeremiah told us.

I think that our understanding differs here, in part, because you don't believe or understand the significance of God Separating Levi from the rest of the Children of Israel, and giving him an Exclusive Priesthood Covenant no other tribe of Israel could partake of.

As a result, you look at the Law of Moses as "ONE LAW" and you don't believe the Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" of Atonement could change without the destruction, or elimination of God's entire Law.

This is also how the Pharisees looked at the Law of Moses.

But God always separated the Levitical Priesthood Covenant with Levi, from His Commandments, Statutes and Laws.

Consider God's inspired Word's here.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

And Again;

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

As Paul said, the LAW of atonement/Cleansing was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, till the Seed should Come. It wasn't the Law when God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, by His Own Words here.

The religions of this world preach that God's Entire Law given through Moses was "ADDED", "Till the Seed should Come". But this is a falsehood. It was the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial "Works of the Law" that was Added. A Law Abraham didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet.

Ask yourself, in Gal. 3:19, "what was this LAW in question ADDED to? And what was being "Transgressed" that prompted God to "ADD" it, if it wasn't God's Laws, Commandments, and Statutes He gave to Abraham, and then to Abraham's Children?

To continue killing animals for atonement of Sin, would be a Sin "After the Seed Came". It would be a violation of God's Law. Jesus never transgressed even one of God's Commandments, yet HE forgave Sins, and healed Lepers without having once sprinkled the blood of a turtledove on the alter, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf.

Why is this? Because HE was the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron. As it is written.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,(As David Prophesied) and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Forget what other religious voices have told you for a minute, and just read the scriptures.

 

[HARK!]

I don't think they were abolished, nor do I think any of them ended. I believe they were fulfilled.

(CLV) Ro 8:4
that the just requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who are not walking in accord with flesh, but in accord with spirit.

 

[Leaf473]

I just showed you where the Law and Prophets Foretold of a time where the manner in which God's Law is Administered would change, along with the manner in which Sin was forgiven. I posted it for your consideration. Did you read the Scripture?

It is the God of the Bible defining a NEW Covenant that was to come into being "AFTER those days". So Jesus becoming the High Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" "After those days" was Law. The prophesied end of the Levitical Priesthood, and the beginning of the Melchizedek Priesthood was LAW. And it did come to Pass just as Jesus said in Matthew 5. He Fulfilled it. HE is that High Priest we go to for Atonement, just as Jeremiah told us.

I think that our understanding differs here, in part, because you don't believe or understand the significance of God Separating Levi from the rest of the Children of Israel, and giving him an Exclusive Priesthood Covenant no other tribe of Israel could partake of.

As a result, you look at the Law of Moses as "ONE LAW" and you don't believe the Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" of Atonement could change without the destruction, or elimination of God's entire Law.

This is also how the Pharisees looked at the Law of Moses.

But God always separated the Levitical Priesthood Covenant with Levi, from His Commandments, Statutes and Laws.

Consider God's inspired Word's here.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

And Again;

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

As Paul said, the LAW of atonement/Cleansing was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, till the Seed should Come. It wasn't the Law when God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt, by His Own Words here.

The religions of this world preach that God's Entire Law given through Moses was "ADDED", "Till the Seed should Come". But this is a falsehood. It was the Levitical Priesthood Sacrificial "Works of the Law" that was Added. A Law Abraham didn't have as Levi wasn't even born yet.

Ask yourself, in Gal. 3:19, "what was this LAW in question ADDED to? And what was being "Transgressed" that prompted God to "ADD" it, if it wasn't God's Laws, Commandments, and Statutes He gave to Abraham, and then to Abraham's Children?

To continue killing animals for atonement of Sin, would be a Sin "After the Seed Came". It would be a violation of God's Law. Jesus never transgressed even one of God's Commandments, yet HE forgave Sins, and healed Lepers without having once sprinkled the blood of a turtledove on the alter, according to the Covenant God made with Levi on Israel's behalf.

Why is this? Because HE was the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron. As it is written.

Heb. 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,(As David Prophesied) and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Forget what other religious voices have told you for a minute, and just read the scriptures.

Thanks for the nice post, Studyman.

Yes, I did read it carefully. I don't understand how it answers the question I posed, though.

I'll try asking the question a different way:
When Jesus says, "Think not that I came to destroy the law..." is he referring to every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy?

 

[Studyman]

Thanks for the nice post, Studyman.

Yes, I did read it carefully. I don't understand how it answers the question I posed, though.

I'll try asking the question a different way:
When Jesus says, "Think not that I came to destroy the law..." is he referring to every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy?

I believe HE meant what HE actually says here.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He says to "Think not" HE came to destroy, not only the Torah, but also the Prophets.

And yet, in the religions of the land you and I were born into, the very foundation of their religious philosophy is based on the assertion that Jesus came to "change" or "Free us from" or "Abolish" the Law and Prophets.

I think it is important to understand that the religion Jesus was born into, that is, the Mainstream Religions of His Time, called the God of Abraham their God, but "Taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men" and "Transgressed the Commandments of God" by their own religious Traditions, and were given the Laws of God by Moses, but "kept them not".

So when Jesus came, actually walking in all the Commandments of God as God intended for all men, and walked not in the religious philosophies and traditions of the mainstream religions of the land HE was born into, HE looked like a transgressor to them. They even called Him a devil.

In Matt. 5, Jesus is exposing their religion by pointing out that they taught some of God's Word, while "omitting" the weightier matters of the Law. (He said this same thing in Matt. 23)

He was telling HIS Disciples the Truth about the Law and Prophets.

Matt. 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

He pointed out to them that the "them of old time", that is, the Shepherds God placed in charge of administering God's Laws, taught part of the Laws of God, "thou shall not kill", but had "omitted" the other parts of the Laws of God, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

This is witnessed by them killing the Prophets God sent to them.

But Jesus came to teach them, not only the parts of God's instruction that the Pharisees taught, but also the parts they didn't teach. Just as Jesus said; "But I say"!!!

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

"Many" religious philosophers in the Mainstream religions we were born into today, preach that all has already been fulfilled. This is, of course, foolishness. Just as the foolishness of teaching God's Law not to Commit Adultery, but not teaching God's Law about lusting after a woman that is not yours. Or the Foolishness of teaching God's Law not to Kill, but not teaching God's Law about hating a brother in your heart.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

There are many prophesies about the Christ which have yet to be fulfilled. And the same earth Jesus walked, both you and I walk.

Therefore God's Law, that is, HIS definition of Righteousness, and Sin, and the witnesses, the Prophets, have not passed, that is, if one believes the Jesus of the Bible.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus time were partial in the law, and the mainstream preachers of our time are also partial in the law. Like Jesus, we were both born into a world with religions who call Jesus/God Lord, Lord, yet do not obey the instructions this same God gave us for our Sake's no doubt.

I know you asked a "Yes or no" question. But it is important that you see the reason for my answer.

"When Jesus says, "Think not that I came to destroy the law..." is he referring to every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy"

YES!!!

 

[Leaf473]

I believe HE meant what HE actually says here.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He says to "Think not" HE came to destroy, not only the Torah, but also the Prophets.

And yet, in the religions of the land you and I were born into, the very foundation of their religious philosophy is based on the assertion that Jesus came to "change" or "Free us from" or "Abolish" the Law and Prophets.

I think it is important to understand that the religion Jesus was born into, that is, the Mainstream Religions of His Time, called the God of Abraham their God, but "Taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men" and "Transgressed the Commandments of God" by their own religious Traditions, and were given the Laws of God by Moses, but "kept them not".

So when Jesus came, actually walking in all the Commandments of God as God intended for all men, and walked not in the religious philosophies and traditions of the mainstream religions of the land HE was born into, HE looked like a transgressor to them. They even called Him a devil.

In Matt. 5, Jesus is exposing their religion by pointing out that they taught some of God's Word, while "omitting" the weightier matters of the Law. (He said this same thing in Matt. 23)

He was telling HIS Disciples the Truth about the Law and Prophets.

Matt. 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

He pointed out to them that the "them of old time", that is, the Shepherds God placed in charge of administering God's Laws, taught part of the Laws of God, "thou shall not kill", but had "omitted" the other parts of the Laws of God, "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD."

This is witnessed by them killing the Prophets God sent to them.

But Jesus came to teach them, not only the parts of God's instruction that the Pharisees taught, but also the parts they didn't teach. Just as Jesus said; "But I say"!!!

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

"Many" religious philosophers in the Mainstream religions we were born into today, preach that all has already been fulfilled. This is, of course, foolishness. Just as the foolishness of teaching God's Law not to Commit Adultery, but not teaching God's Law about lusting after a woman that is not yours. Or the Foolishness of teaching God's Law not to Kill, but not teaching God's Law about hating a brother in your heart.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

There are many prophesies about the Christ which have yet to be fulfilled. And the same earth Jesus walked, both you and I walk.

Therefore God's Law, that is, HIS definition of Righteousness, and Sin, and the witnesses, the Prophets, have not passed, that is, if one believes the Jesus of the Bible.

The mainstream preachers of Jesus time were partial in the law, and the mainstream preachers of our time are also partial in the law. Like Jesus, we were both born into a world with religions who call Jesus/God Lord, Lord, yet do not obey the instructions this same God gave us for our Sake's no doubt.

I know you asked a "Yes or no" question. But it is important that you see the reason for my answer.

"When Jesus says, "Think not that I came to destroy the law..." is he referring to every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy"

YES!!!

Thank you for the straight answer here

"When Jesus says, "Think not that I came to destroy the law..." is he referring to every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy"

YES!!!

And I agree.

And when Jesus goes on to say, "not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law" I think he's talking about the same set of laws, every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

And again here,
"Whoever shall break one of these least commandments", that is still every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Do we agree so far?

Based on your previous posts, I believe we agree that we no longer take the following action:
Leviticus 5:6 He shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord for his sin which he has sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.

If we continue to agree, then what simple words do you use to describe our not taking the above action?
Do you say that we are free to break that law?
Or that law does not apply to us?
Or that law is fulfilled, thus we are not breaking it?
Some other words?

 

[Studyman]

Thank you for the straight answer here

And I agree.

And when Jesus goes on to say, "not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law" I think he's talking about the same set of laws, every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

And again here,
"Whoever shall break one of these least commandments", that is still every law from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Do we agree so far?

Based on your previous posts, I believe we agree that we no longer take the following action:
Leviticus 5:6 He shall bring his trespass offering to the Lord for his sin which he has sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin.

If we continue to agree, then what simple words do you use to describe our not taking the above action?
Do you say that we are free to break that law?
Or that law does not apply to us?
Or that law is fulfilled, thus we are not breaking it?
Some other words?

I will not use my words. I am a purchased possession of Him, therefore I rely on HIS Words.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Because I believe the Law and Prophets shall not pass, as Jesus said, then I also believe in His Prophesied NEW Covenant as it pertains to His Word's;

#1. How God's Law is administered

#2. How Sins are Atoned for.

If I believe in the arrival of the Prophesied High Priest, "after the Order of Melchizedek" and not after the "Order of Aron", as the Scriptures teach, then of course, I would not go to a Levite Priest to;

#1. Receive God's Laws.

#2. Atone for my Sins.

And given I have His Oracles in my own home, I can commune with God one on one, without the "other voice" in the garden.

So I am follow the Law and Prophets in obedience when I believe His Words, and come to the Christ for these things they used to go to a Levite for.

Even John the Baptist, a true Levite Priest of God, knew who His High Priest was. A man from Judah, according to the Prophesies of the Law and Prophets.

 

[Leaf473]

I will not use my words. I am a purchased possession of Him, therefore I rely on HIS Words.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Because I believe the Law and Prophets shall not pass, as Jesus said, then I also believe in His Prophesied NEW Covenant as it pertains to His Word's;

#1. How God's Law is administered

#2. How Sins are Atoned for.

If I believe in the arrival of the Prophesied High Priest, "after the Order of Melchizedek" and not after the "Order of Aron", as the Scriptures teach, then of course, I would not go to a Levite Priest to;

#1. Receive God's Laws.

#2. Atone for my Sins.

And given I have His Oracles in my own home, I can commune with God one on one, without the "other voice" in the garden.

So I am follow the Law and Prophets in obedience when I believe His Words, and come to the Christ for these things they used to go to a Levite for.

Even John the Baptist, a true Levite Priest of God, knew who His High Priest was. A man from Judah, according to the Prophesies of the Law and Prophets.

Yes, I agree that we are following the Law and Prophets in obedience when we believe His Words, and come to the Christ for these things they used to go to a Levite for.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, so thank you for those words.

 

[Studyman]

Yes, I agree that we are following the Law and Prophets in obedience when we believe His Words, and come to the Christ for these things they used to go to a Levite for.

I think you hit the nail on the head there, so thank you for those words.

Yes,

"we are following the Law and Prophets in obedience when we believe God's Words enough to "do them", and come to the Christ, our New High Priest, for these things they used to go to a Levite for."

As it is written.

Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.