JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello Friend,
Welcome back. Did you take some time off?

If I read this post correctly, it is beyond remarkable and astounding Abraham kept something he was never given and even had no knowledge of. bugkiller

Yet God's Word does not seem to agree with you. Post 439 looks pretty solid to me. Do you have any scriptures to share from God's Word that says anything different? Please make your case. If you cannot we should believe what God says.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is not one single word about which day the christian is to assemble. bugkiller

I am not sure what your statement has to do with God's commandments.

If your referring to the 4th commandment what does assembling together have to do with obeying God's Sabbath commandment. The 4th commandment is to Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. It is about remembering creation and not doing any secular work on the 7th Day of the week because God made it a Holy day. Jesus is the Lord and creator of it and commands us to keep it as a Holy day (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Mark 2:27-28; Hebrew 4; James 2:8-12). In the NT we are also told not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together (Hebrew 10:25)

Can you find me this scripture any scriptures in God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? It seems to be missing from my bible.

If you cannot find this missing scripture shouldn't we follow the Word of God instead of the traditions and teachings of man? There is a warning in the Word of God about following the traditions and teachings of man that break the commandments of God........

Matthew 15:3-9
3, But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? 4, For God commanded, saying, Honor thy father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. 5, But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou might be profited by me; 6, And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7, Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8, This people draws nigh unto me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9, But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Who should we obey the traditions and teachings of man or the Word of God?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Col 2:16-17 has nothing to do with offerings. Paul is not writing to the tribe of Levi. The issue for the Jews here is kosher foods. These kosher foods are trying to be forced on the gentile believers. The Council at Jerusalem said no.
bugkiller

I believe and follow God's Word. There is over 200+ scriptures in the Old and New Testaments writings that disagree with you. If you do not believe so please by all means make your case here and address the 5 Part OP in COL 2:14-16 THE REAL TRUTH.... with scripture linked for your convenience.....

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Sorry mistake...

 

[Bob S]

Can you find me this scripture any scriptures in God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? It seems to be missing from my bible.

If you cannot find this missing scripture shouldn't we follow the Word of God instead of the traditions and teachings of man? There is a warning in the Word of God about following the traditions and teachings of man that break the commandments of God........

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

I know you will not entertain the written word, but there is your answer complete. One of the law pushers stated that Paul is too hard to understand and quoted 2Peter3:16 15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

No one that I know of has ever commented that Christians are lawless because Paul might be misquoted. Gal 3:19 tells us that the Torah was until Christ. 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

Is that verse too hard to understand? There is that word again. UNTIL keeps popping up in places like Matt5:16-17 and here in Gal 3. Why would Paul write that verse if we are still under the Torah? Then there is a profound verse in Eph2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Oh I fully expect you to diminish the word "law" to mean ceremonial law, but where did you get your permission to add that to scripture like you do when you add a 10 to the word "commandments"? Where do you get your authority to tell us that Abraham had Torah when Moses tells us in Deut 5:3 "It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today."?

Please do not refer me to previous posts where you refused to give a real answer to my questions. The above verses are real and show Christians that we are not under the laws given to Israel. Those laws were given to them as the standard for them to become a Holy people in the land of Canaan. We are not in Canaan. Canaan is no more and the covenant has been abolished. It is history. The new covenant is not about laws given to Israel. It is about loving Jesus and our fellow man. It is about Jesus loving us so much that He gave His own blood on the Cross to save sinners like you and me. It is about marvelous Grace.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi Bob,

Everything you have provided below has already bee responded to and clearly answered with scripture but you seem to not want to accept the scriptures provided to you that answer your questions. Do you have anything new to share? Otherwise we will have to agree to disagree on your interpretation. It is written let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged. I will respond to your post again in sections to make everything a little easier to read…

LoveGodsWord said: Can you find me this scripture any scriptures in God's Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day? It seems to be missing from my bible. If you cannot find this missing scripture shouldn't we follow the Word of God instead of the traditions and teachings of man? There is a warning in the Word of God about following the traditions and teachings of man that break the commandments of God. Bob S says: 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Bob, this was already answered earlier. I am happy to share God’s Word with you though so do not mind you asking again. Let's have a look at 2 Corinthians Chapter 3 again……

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is referring to the Old and New Covenants. The context for reference is 2 Corinthians 3:3 talking about the “Believer” (in God’s Word) “Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle (Who? The “Believer” is a living message of Christ) of Christ ministered by us, not written with ink (who? The believer) but with the Spirit of the living God. Not in tables of stone but the fleshly tables of the heart (see Hebrews 8:10-12 New Covenant promise).

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because they give the knowledge of sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7). They made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19) but showed what sin was if the God’s Law was broken the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other. They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness.

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 7:7). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

The Law of God is the only way of showing us who we truly are, sinners in need of a Saviour and in this condition we can see for the first time Him who loved us and washed us in His own blood and by faith only lay hold of the promises of God’s Word. (2Pet 1:4) It is here as we believe God that he changes us from living a life of breaking God's Law to a life of walking with him. It is through the operation of God through Love because he first loved us that we follow Jesus not for salvation but because of love. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal sinful mind) but after the spirit and why Jesus says to his followers, "If you love me keep the commandments" (John 14:15).

People cannot see that this is the operation of God in the believer and assume God's people believe they are saved by their works, when in fact Jesus is saving us from our sins to walk in newness of life in fulfilment of His new Covenant promise (Heb 8:10-12)...... Gods Sheep hear His Voice salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1John 3:4) whosoever is living in sin has neither seen him nor known him (1John 3:6)

You say that the 10 commandments are transitory or temporary. This is correct in that they lead us to Jesus. However does this mean they are abolished? Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31). Salvation is being saved from sin not in sin. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Those that are still in their sins have neither seen him or know him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12).

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 if we knowingly break it we are guilty of sin (James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching over the Word of God. If we love Jesus we should follow him who loves us (John 14:15).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Oh I fully expect you to diminish the word "law" to mean ceremonial law, but where did you get your permission to add that to scripture like you do when you add a 10 to the word "commandments"? Where do you get your authority to tell us that Abraham had Torah when Moses tells us in Deut 5:3 "It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today."?

Are you saying that God did not have people before the 10 commandments were given that obeyed God’s Laws?

For Deuteronomy 5:1-3, the covenant was not made with the father's because they were all dead. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. This scripture does not say that God's people before Sinai did not have the 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses and that no one ever had them or practiced them before Sinai.

What makes you think Abraham did not know the 10 commandments or the ceremonial laws for sin offerings? What does God's Word say...........

Did Abraham keep God's commandments?

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The Hebrew words God uses here are especially important. As The Expositor’s Bible Commentary explains regarding this verse: “The Lord then added a remarkable note: Abraham ‘kept my requirements [ mismarti ], my commands [ miswotay ], my decrees [ huqqotay ] and my laws [ wetorotay ]’ (v. 5).

“It is remarkable that this is precisely the way in which obedience to the Sinai Covenant is expressed in Deuteronomy 11:1: ‘Love the Lord your God and keep his requirements [ mismarto ], his decrees [ huqqotayw ], his laws [ mispatayw ] and his commands [ miswotayw ]’ . . .

“Thus Abraham is an example of one who shows the law written on his heart (Jeremiah 31:33). He is the writer’s ultimate example of true obedience to the law, the one about whom the Lord could say, ‘Abraham obeyed me’ (v. 5). Thus, by showing Abraham to be an example of ‘keeping the law,’ the writer has shown the nature of the relationship between the law and faith. Abraham, a man who lived in faith, could be described as one who kept the law” (Vol. 2, 1990, pp. 186-187, emphasis added).

Were the ceremonial laws for sin offerings known before God gave the 10 commandments and Moses wrote the ceremonial laws for sin? Now it must be very clear, if God's people were practicing ceremonial offerings for sin they would have known God's Law (10 commandments) because sin is the transgression of God's Law and the knowledge of what sin is (1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, James 2:11). Otherwise why the need to offer up sin offering if they did not know what sin was?

Before God's 10 commandments and the ceremonial laws of Moses were given....

Genesis 4:2-7
2, And she again bare his brother Abel.2 And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3, And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4, And Abel, he also brought of the first-lings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 5, But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6, And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7, If thou do well, shalt thou not be accepted ? and if thou do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 8:20
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Exodus 10:25
But Moses said, "You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.

Abraham saved the same way everyone is and that is by faith that leads to obedience...

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

So it is quite clear that God's people before Mount Sinai had God's Law and the ceremonial laws for sin offerings pointing to Jesus.......

God's Law is the standard of the Old and New Covenants and the judgement to come...
(Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12; Exodus 36:26-27; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Hebrews 10:26-28; Romans 1:29-32; 2:-9; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31) and if we break it we stand guilty before God of committing sin (1 John 3:4; James 2:11; Romans 7:7) and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) All must hear the word of the Lord and repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand and fear God and give glory to him for the hour of His Judgement Has come......

God's Sheep hear His voice...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The above verses are real and show Christians that we are not under the laws given to Israel. Those laws were given to them as the standard for them to become a Holy people in the land of Canaan.

Who are Israel?

Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. It has its origin from Gen 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel. This is God's people and today anyone the is following Jesus is part of God's spiritual Israel according to God's Word. The same New Covenant is written for God's people who are now spiritual Israel following. Scripture support;

For it is written…

Let God be true and every man a liar that thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He says not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ

Abraham’s seed is Israel, now who is Israel?

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus and if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Gal 3:28-29,
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Col 3:11,
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Rom 10:11-13,
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 2:28-29,
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Jer 31:33-4,
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:10-12,
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:14-17,
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Gal 3:29,
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

The New Covenant is for God's Israel which represent God’s followers the believers. If you are not part of God's Israel you are not part of the New Covenant (Heb 8:10-12).

God's Israel are those that believe the Word of God and follow it and is why Jesus says If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15)

We are not in Canaan. Canaan is no more and the covenant has been abolished. It is history. The new covenant is not about laws given to Israel. It is about loving Jesus and our fellow man. It is about Jesus loving us so much that He gave His own blood on the Cross to save sinners like you and me. It is about marvelous Grace.

If you are not a part of God’s Israel as defined in God’s Word then the New Covenant is not for you because it is written…

Hebrews 8:10-12

10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:26-27)

It is written he that says he knows him and keep not His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. The 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 and if we wilfully break it we commit sin and stand guilty before God and are in danger of the judgment. Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man breaking the commandments of God. Jesus says if we follow the traditions and teachings of man over the Word of God we are not following God. (see Matthew 15:3-9).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No one that I know of has ever commented that Christians are lawless because Paul might be misquoted. Gal 3:19 tells us that the Torah was until Christ. 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

The Torah is actually much more then you are making out. The Torah is the first 5 books of the bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers). Are you saying that as a Christian we no longer need to consider these books?

If you are referring to the 10 commandments God’s Word tells us that the Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the schoolmaster bringing us to Jesus that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24) It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12; Exodus 36:26-27; Jeremiah 31:33-34; Hebrews 10:26-28; Romans 1:29-32;2:-9;2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31 ). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). God’s Word does not pass away (Matthew 24:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelations 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:8-12 etc.). God’s Law reveals sin to us and the penalty of sin so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 6:23; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Hebrews 10:26-28; Romans 1:29-32; Romans 2:2-13; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Hebrews 9:27; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood as we have faith (Galatians 3:24; Revelations 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Hebrews 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

This also includes God's 4th commandment which is the 7th Day Sabbath and our duty of love to our God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is that word again. UNTIL keeps popping up in places like Matt5:16-17 and here in Gal 3. Why would Paul write that verse if we are still under the Torah? Then there is a profound verse in Eph2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

The Torah = the first 5 books of the bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers). All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Let's talk scripture.........

Matthew 5:16-18
16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18, for verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled.

Has heaven and earth passed away?

What is it talking about when Jesus says he has come to fulfill?

LESSONS FROM MATT 5: AND THE NEW COVENANT

16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-18)

Matthew 5:19-28
19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21, You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22, But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 27, Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28,But I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

HEB 8: (new covenant)
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God Fulfilling His Law (10 commandments) IN US through Faith?

The fulfilling of the God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the Spirit (new mind with God's Law written on the heart) (Rom 8:1). That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the spirit (Rom 8:4; 6). Salvation is God fulfilling his Law in us saving us from sin. Finally the result of God's salvation can be seen as " Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev 14:12). God's people with the character of Jesus saved by faith through love. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:34-36)

If you are partaking of the New Covenant and you have been born again and are walking in the Spirit. You will not steal right and murder? Great let’s look at what you have just said. These are part of God’s Law right (the 10 commandments). You have just agreed that if you are following God under the New Covenant then you will not murder and steal. So let’s look at all of God’s Law applying the same thinking (Ex 20:1-17). This indeed is the new covenant experience spoken of in Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27; Heb 8:10-12; 10:16-17.

“33I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” This is the law of love to God and to our neighbour.

So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.

if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

God’s Law has always been central to both the Old and the New Covenant. It is only by the operation of God as we have Faith in His Word that God changes our hearts so that we can love him and love our neighbour that we can walk in his ways. This is why Jesus says its only if you love me we can keep hid commandments (John 14:15)

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law in us who walk by faith that works by love and is why love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit….

This is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments; He that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (John 14:15; 1 John 2:2-4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)

As all can see your scriptures and questions have all been clearly answered by God's Word. Do you have anything new to add? If you believe that the posts I have provided do not answer your questions then by all means prove it with scripture. Just saying your questions have not been answered without addressing the posts and scriptures in the post does not mean your questions have not been answered. It only means you do not accept the answers to your questions.

Some in Jesus day did did not hear him and believe his Words and is why it is written.....

Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.........

and again.........

If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.....

We must be careful to follow all of God's Word because it is hard to kick against the pricks...

 

[bugkiller]

I believe and follow God's Word. There is over 200+ scriptures in the Old and New Testaments writings that disagree with you. If you do not believe so please by all means make your case here and address the 5 Part OP in COL 2:14-16 THE REAL TRUTH.... with scripture linked for your convenience.....

This does not respond to anything I posted. I addressed contents of a post by you in this thread.

bugkiller

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This does not respond to anything I posted. I addressed contents of a post by you in this thread. bugkiller

Actually it does. If you read the 5 Part OP in the link to the COL 2:14-16 THE REAL TRUTH thread
You will see that it responds to everything you posted. There are indeed over 200+ scriptures that disagree with you. As mentioned earlier if you do not believe so please by all means make your case with scripture and lets discuss it...

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob,

Everything you have provided below has already bee responded to and clearly answered with scripture but you seem to not want to accept the scriptures provided to you that answer your questions. Do you have anything new to share? Otherwise we will have to agree to disagree on your interpretation. It is written let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged. I will respond to your post again in sections to make everything a little easier to read…

Bob, this was already answered earlier. I am happy to share God’s Word with you though so do not mind you asking again. Let's have a look at 2 Corinthians Chapter 3 again……

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 is referring to the Old and New Covenants. The context for reference is 2 Corinthians 3:3 talking about the “Believer” (in God’s Word) “Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle (Who? The “Believer” is a living message of Christ) of Christ ministered by us, not written with ink (who? The believer) but with the Spirit of the living God. Not in tables of stone but the fleshly tables of the heart (see Hebrews 8:10-12 New Covenant promise).

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because they give the knowledge of sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7). They made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19) but showed what sin was if the God’s Law was broken the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other. They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness.
27 She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”
28 “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.

Moses didn't have the 10 commandments and he knew right from wrong.

You have yet to prove that the 10 commandments are the "law of God".

For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. You have yet to address the fact that Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments have been "done away".


Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 7:7). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).

James 2 and 1Jn3 does not say 10 commandments. YOU ARE ADDING YOUR THOUGHTS TO SCRIPTURE.

God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19). It shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God.

Is Jesus God LGW? Why did He bother to tell us that He kept Torah, His Father's commandments and then tell us to keep His commands" Why LGW? God's laws are Jesus commands. Why else would Jesus give all mankind a new and better covenant?

Why did Paul write in Eph2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. What does "setting aside" mean to you LGW?

You say that the 10 commandments are transitory or temporary. This is correct in that they lead us to Jesus. However does this mean they are abolished? Do we then make void the law through faith?

Paul wrote that the 10 were "done away". You can make up anything you want, but the fact is we are not subject to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments didn't even include the greatest commands to love God and love our fellow man.

God forbid: yea, we establish the law (Romans 3:31). Salvation is being saved from sin not in sin. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Those that are still in their sins have neither seen him or know him (1 John 2:3-4, 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12).

The 7th Day Sabbath is one of God’s 10 if we knowingly break it we are guilty of sin (James 2:8-12; 1 John 3:4). Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching over the Word of God. If we love Jesus we should follow him who loves us (John 14:15).

Were there is no law there is no sin. The Sabbath was one of the 10 that was "done away".

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Is Jesus God LGW? Why did He bother to tell us that He kept Torah, His Father's commandments and then tell us to keep His commands" Why LGW? God's laws are Jesus commands. Why else would Jesus give all mankind a new and better covenant? Why did Paul write in Eph2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. What does "setting aside" mean to you LGW?

Good questions Bob, let's look to God's Word for the answers.....

Jesus is God (John 1:1-14) and he and the father are one (John 17:11) the commandments of God and the commandments of Jesus are the same. These are the commandments you have heard from the beginning (1 John 2:7; Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:36-40; James 2:8-12; Romans 13:8-10). The only new commandment from Jesus is that we love one another like he loved us (John 13:34). Love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

To understand what Ephesians 2:14 and also Colossians 2:14 is talking about you need to understand the difference between the God's Law and the laws of Moses that where Shadows of things to come...

There was two sets of laws that were given to God’s people in the Old Testament scriptures.

(1) God’s Law (10 commandments) pointed out what sin was and the penalty of sin which is death. It was never a cure for sin in the Old Testament as well as in the New. It only gives a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (right doing) (Rom 3:20; James 2:11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Ps 119:172).

(2) The laws of Moses was the second set of laws and included all the civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws. These laws could not tell you what sin was this was the job of God’s Law, however the laws of Moses were the prescriptive cure for sin in the Old Covenant. These laws included all the Levitical and ceremonial laws, sacrificial burnt offerings for sin, annual festivals and earthly sanctuary services for sin. These laws were the cure for sin so the sinner could be made right with God. These where all prophetic in nature, teaching the plan of salvation which pointing to Jesus as the true lamb of God and our great high priest and His Work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary. (Leviticus 1; 3-12; 14-17; 22-23; Number 6-8; 15; 28-29; Deuteronomy 12; 33; Exodus 25:8; John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28)

From the above it can be seen that God’s Law was written on stone and the laws of Moses in a book. God’s Law is forever and only points out what sin is but was never a cure for sin (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23).

The laws of Moses included all the ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws that were the cure for sin with all the sin offerings and earthly Sanctuary services, annual festivals and sin offerings which were prophetic in nature and temporary pointing to the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and his role as the true lamb of God and your great high priest to atone for our sins (John 1:29; 36; Revelation 5:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-7; Hebrews 8:2-13; 9:1-28).

Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14 The handwriting of ordinances (ceremonial laws and ordinances written in a book) is referring to the ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses which included the Jewish annual festivals and sin offerings that pointed to Jesus.

The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree;

The Greek meaning of handwriting of ordinances in v14 of Colossians 2 and v15 in Ephesians 2 is a hand written legal document or book of civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws. These are the laws referred to in verse 14 that have been erased and are nailed to the cross.

What is the legal written document or book (handwriting of ordinances) that includes the civil, ceremonial and ecclesiastical laws referring to?

There was two sets of laws that were given to God’s people in the Old Testament scriptures.

Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross?

Jesus was our true sacrifice for our sins and the saviour of the world that the ceremonial laws of Moses all pointed to. When Jesus came and died the old Covenant laws of Moses that pointed to Jesus and the plan of salvation was fulfilled (John 1:29; 36; Rev 5:6; 1Cor 5:6-7; Heb 8:2-13; 9:1-28). Jesus is our true Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and our sacrifice for our sins. It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15; John 3:16).

God's Law is forever and the standard of the Old and New Covenants and the Judgement to come.....

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Romans 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

Paul wrote that the 10 were "done away". You can make up anything you want, but the fact is we are not subject to the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments didn't even include the greatest commands to love God and love our fellow man. Were there is no law there is no sin. The Sabbath was one of the 10 that was "done away".

God’s Word seems to disagree with you because it is written; He that says I know Him and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:2-4). Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:6-8). For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have yet to prove that the 10 commandments are the "law of God".

Bob, just saying the words “you have yet to prove that the 10 commandments are the "law of God" does not make your statement true. Here let me write out the scriptures that have been sent to you to make it easier to understand whether you believe these scriptures is between you and God…

1 John 3:4 is very clear what it is talking about...
v4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

What is sin? It is the transgression of God’s Law

1 John 3:3-10
v3 is about purifying ourselves as Jesus is pure... then defines sin as the transgression of God's Law and if we are sinning we do not know God.

More clarity.....

v14 is talking about Murder which is the 6th commandment of God's Law (Exodus 20:13)

So yes we are talking about the 10 commandments... Still not sure if it is God's Law (10 commandments)? What do other scriptures say………..?

James talks specifically about God's Law (10 commandments) naming Adultery and Murder (killing) and say that if we break God's Law it is sin v9 and goes on to say as did John that if you break God's Law you sin and you are transgressing God's Law....

James 2:8-12
8, If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9, But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11, For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law <1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments); Who's Law is James talking about?>.12, So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Paul says that God's Law (10 commandments) gives us a knowledge of what sin is mentioning the 10 commandment (Exodus 20:17).....

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So yep seems like James and Paul all agree with John that sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments) and this is sin.......

 

[LoveGodsWord]

For if that which is done away (10 commandments) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. You have yet to address the fact that Paul is telling us that the 10 commandments have been "done away".

Sorry Bob it was answered already although maybe I should have added the verse numbers though....

Let’s look at the rest of the chapter?

v6, Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament (Covenant); not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit giveth life.
v7, But if the ministration of death, written and graven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
v8, How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
v9, For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
v10, For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
v11, For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
v12, Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
v13, And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
v14, But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
v15, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16, Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Lets’ put it all together….

v6-7 What is the ministration of death graven in stone? It is God’s Law (10 commandments; Exodus 20:1-17; 31:18; 32:16). Why were they called the ministration of death? Because God’s Law (10 commandments) give the knowledge of sin and righteousness but makes nothing perfect (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19 ). God’s Law only shows what sin is and if broken, the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). v8-10 It was to teach us that we are all sinners in need of a saviour and that all the world may become guilty before God (Romans 3:10; 19; Isaiah 64:6). It leads us to Christ that we might be justified by faith (Galatians 3:24; Romans 3:28). v10-17 The glory of the one passes to the glory of the other (Law to Christ). They both work together to bring the sinner to salvation. It is the glory of the one (God’s Law) that supersedes the Glory of the other because God’s Law leads the sinner to the Saviour (Galatian 3:24-25). The glory has been done away not God’s Law. God’s Law is perfect and is forever but makes nothing perfect it is the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Ecclesiastes 3:14) but makes nothing perfect. Faith that works by love through walking in the Spirit is the new ministration when someone is born again.

This is the difference between the true Gospel and the counterfeit. The counterfeit Gospel is one that tries to separate God’s Law from the cross but without God’s Law no one has the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; 7:7; Hebrews 7:19).

Hope this help....

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why is God's Law important to helping someone to have faith in Christ alone?

Great question! Lets see what God's Word says...

This is because it is only through the Law of God (10 commandments) that any of us have a knowledge of what sin is (James 2:11; 1 John 3:4; Rom 3:20; 7:7). If we do away with God's Law we have no knowledge of sin. If we have no knowledge of sin we have no need of a savior. If we have no need of a savior we have no salvation. If we have no salvation we are lost. "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Rom 2:12).God's Law shows us that we are sinners in need of a savior. God's Law was given to us that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (Rom 3:19).

God's Law shows us that we are sinners and cannot save ourselves from this disease that we have within us so that we can by Faith lay hold of the promises of God's Words so that Jesus can save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save the righteous (those that think they do not need saving) but sinners (those that know their need of saving) (Matthew 9:12-13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God's Law has always been part of the true Gospel of Christ. The counterfeit Gospel does not have it. God's forever Law (the 10 commandments) is the foundation of both the Old and the New Covenant and the very foundation and basis of the true Gospel of Christ. It will be the basis of the judgement where we will all be accountable to God and can only be fulfilled in us as we are born again to love as he loved us. Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law in us who walk by faith that works by love and is why love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit….

This is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments; He that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (John 14:15; 1 John 2:2-4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 and if we break it God's Word says we stand guilty before God of breaking all his Law and are in danger of the judgement (Exodus 20:8-11; James 2:8-12)

 

[Bob S]

The Torah = the first 5 books of the bible written by Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers). All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

You choose to use that verse and I will use it right back. Why are you not wearing tassels on the corners of your garments? Isn't that law part of scripture? Can you be righteous if you don't heed what you think God's word is ?

Let's talk scripture.........

If you stop adding to scripture and allow it to say exactly what it is telling us then we can "talk".

Matthew 5:16-18
16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18, for verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled.

Has heaven and earth passed away?

What is it talking about when Jesus says he has come to fulfill?

until heaven and earth pass is figurative language. Fulfill means to bring to an end. Jesus last words on the Cross were "it is finished". He fulfilled the law. If you want to argue that not one jot... will pass from the law and it has not been fulfilled then you had better buy some tassels to wear on your garments and keep feast days plus all the remainder of the 613 laws He was referring.

LESSONS FROM MATT 5: AND THE NEW COVENANT

16, Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:17-18)

I don't understand why you keep repeating.

Matthew 5:19-28
19, Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. 21, You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22, But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 27, Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28,But I say unto you, that whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The Law of God (10 commandments) is the work of God (Ex 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecc 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Ps 19:7). It is the very foundation of the Old and New Covenants (Ex 20:1:17, Heb 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Ex 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matt 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Ps 111:7-8, Rev 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1John 3:5-8, 1John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecc 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Gal 3:24; Rev 1:5). God writes His Law in our hearts so that we become like him and we follow him because we love him (Heb 8:10-12) LOVE is the fulfilling (doing) of God's Law (Rom 13:10). This is why Jesus says to those that love him If you love me keep my commandments (John 14:15).

HEB 8: (new covenant)
10, For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, for I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

God Fulfilling His Law (10 commandments) IN US through Faith?

The fulfilling of the God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the Spirit (new mind with God's Law written on the heart) (Rom 8:1). That the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled IN US who walk not after the flesh (carnal mind = sin) but after the spirit (Rom 8:4; 6). Salvation is God fulfilling his Law in us saving us from sin. Finally the result of God's salvation can be seen as " Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus (Rev 14:12). God's people with the character of Jesus saved by faith through love. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (John 8:34-36)

If you are partaking of the New Covenant and you have been born again and are walking in the Spirit. You will not steal right and murder? Great let’s look at what you have just said. These are part of God’s Law right (the 10 commandments). You have just agreed that if you are following God under the New Covenant then you will not murder and steal. So let’s look at all of God’s Law applying the same thinking (Ex 20:1-17). This indeed is the new covenant experience spoken of in Jer 31:31-34; Eze 36:26-27; Heb 8:10-12; 10:16-17.

“33I will put my law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” This is the law of love to God and to our neighbour.

So now under the new covenant when God changes our heart; we will love God and our neighbour.

if we love God we will not steal
if we love God we will not murder
if we love God we will not commit adultery
if we love God we will not lie
if we love God we will honour our parents
if we love God we will not covet
if we love God we will have no other gods except our God who loves us
if we love God we will not make unto any idols
if we love God we will not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
if we love God we will Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy as he asked us to!

God’s Law has always been central to both the Old and the New Covenant. It is only by the operation of God as we have Faith in His Word that God changes our hearts so that we can love him and love our neighbour that we can walk in his ways. This is why Jesus says its only if you love me we can keep hid commandments (John 14:15)

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Love is the fulfilling of the God’s Law in us who walk by faith that works by love and is why love is the fulfilling of God’s Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit….

This is why Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments; He that says he knows him and keeps not his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. (John 14:15; 1 John 2:2-4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)

As all can see your scriptures and questions have all been clearly answered by God's Word. Do you have anything new to add? If you believe that the posts I have provided do not answer your questions then by all means prove it with scripture. Just saying your questions have not been answered without addressing the posts and scriptures in the post does not mean your questions have not been answered. It only means you do not accept the answers to your questions.

Some in Jesus day did did not hear him and believe his Words and is why it is written.....

Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.........

and again.........

If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejects me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.....

We must be careful to follow all of God's Word because it is hard to kick against the pricks...

Why will you not recognize 1Jn3:19-24 as being God's commands for Christians? Verse 19 tells us we belong to the truth if we believe and love. If we do that we are keeping His commands.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You choose to use that verse and I will use it right back. Why are you not wearing tassels on the corners of your garments? Isn't that law part of scripture?

No its not part of the scripture

If you stop adding to scripture and allow it to say exactly what it is telling us then we can "talk". until heaven and earth pass is figurative language. Fulfill means to bring to an end. Jesus last words on the Cross were "it is finished". He fulfilled the law. If you want to argue that not one jot... will pass from the law and it has not been fulfilled then you had better buy some tassels to wear on your garments and keep feast days plus all the remainder of the 613 laws He was referring. I don't understand why you keep repeating.

I am not adding to scripture. I only post scripture but you do not want to believe it. How many commandments are in the 10 commandments (God's Law)? If we break one we are guilty of breaking all and guilty before God of committing sin.

Why will you not recognize 1Jn3:19-24 as being God's commands for Christians? Verse 19 tells us we belong to the truth if we believe and love. If we do that we are keeping His commands.

I do recognize 1 John 3:19-24. I also recognize the context which is about sin (breaking God's commandments). The context also shows us who God's people are and the children of the devil who do not know God.....

1 John 3:3-15
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. 4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. 11, For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12, Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13, Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death. 15, Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So yep that is the context. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:-8-10; Romans 8:1-4) but if you commit sin you do not love God or your neighbor and have neither seen him or know him. The 4th commandment, which is to remember the 7th Day Sabbath is one of the 10 and if we break one we break all of them (James 2:8-12). Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God. God's Word tells us that if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we obey God or man?

Love indeed is the fulfilling of God's Law. This is why Jesus says; If you love me keep my commandments. Unless we are born again how can we love God?

 

[Bob S]

No its not part of the scripture

You ave to be kidding. It seems like it is impossible to get you to acknowedge that you cannot see scripture clearly enough to recognize that wearing tassels was part of the law that came to an end at Calvary. Part of Torah was the 10 commandments. All the law was brought to an end at Calvary. Jesus didn't tell us it was just the ceremonies, you are the one that adds that to the conversation.

I am not adding to scripture.

Then why do you add a 10 before commandments if you do not add to scripture?

I only post scripture but you do not believe it. How many commandments are in the 10 commandments (God's Law)? If we break one we are guilty of breaking all and guilty before God of committing sin.

God's law for Christians came from Jesus who is God by the way. He kept Israel's Torah and asks us to keep His commands. His commands are God's law.

I do recognize 1 John 3:19-24. I also recognize the context which is about sin (breaking God's commandments). The context also shows us who God's people are and the children of the devil who do not know God.....

Your "context" is blurred. Please show me how you got that from those verses. Twist, twist and more twisting. Twisting will get you nowhere with Christians who know the real truth.

1 John 3:3-15
3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. 4, Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Show us where transgression of the law is the 10 commandments, the ones that do not even include loving our fellow man. John goes on to explain what sin is in verse 24. Sin is not believing and not loving our fellow man. I believe John over you and that is not difficult to do because I too can read and I am allowing the Holy Spirit to be my guide in what I read. I am not allowing some woman to twist what I read into something unrecognizable.

5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him. 7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8, He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10, In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother. 11, For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 12, Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. 13, Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. 14, We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death. 15, Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So yep that is the context. Love is the fulfilling of God's Law who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 13:-8-10; Romans 8:1-4) but if you commit sin you do not love God or your neighbor and have neither seen him or know him. This includes the 4th commandments, which is to remember the 7th Day Sabbath because if we break one we break all of them (James 2:8-12)

Sin according to the beloved John the apostle of Jesus is not breaking the transitory done away with 10 commandments, but believing in Jesus and loving others as He taught us to do. We know we have the truth if we are doing these things. Do you have any idea what loving others as Jesus loves us actually means? This is what life is all about. Israel had its 10 commandments which didn't include loving others. The 10 and the remainder of Torah was for their way of life in Canaan. All those laws were not for salvation and you should be the first to recognize this, but because of your preconceived beliefs you cannot fathom such a thing. You have to put Sabbath ahead of loving your fellow man. If you are hell bent on observing a day there is no command not to, but Jesus has removed the law with its regulations and to teach otherwise is not what Christians are supposed to do. Jn 1:17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Eph2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.