JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

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HARK!

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You did not even read what you were quoting from did you

I read it far enough to realize that the scripture that you posted was irrelevant to your bare assertion.

Prove all things my friend. Hold fast to that which is good.

If you want to make assertions; the onus of proof is on you.

You have yet to prove that your doctrine overrides YHWH's word. Nothing overrides YHWH's word, not even a malach from the shamayim. YHWH's covenant with the Levites stands forever.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I read it far enough to realize that the scripture that you posted was irrelevant to your bare assertion.

Prove all things my friend. Hold fast to that which is good.

If you want to make assertions; the onus of proof is on you.

You have yet to prove that your doctrine overrides YHWH's word. Nothing overrides YHWH's word, not even a malach from the shamayim. YHWH's covenant with the Levites stands forever.

I did not post bare assertions like your doing here in this post. I have only posted scripture that disagrees with your teachings and understanding of new covenant scripture dear friend. It seems you do not believe them though. If that is the case you better find yourself a Levite Priest with an earthly Sanctuary to offer your animal sacrifices every time you sin if you reject Jesus in the new covenant promises as outlined in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. Time to leave the shadows of the body of Christ *Colossians 2:17. When he to who these laws point to has arrived. Dear friend, there is no forgiveness of sins without the blood of Jesus who is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10. We are in the new covenant now not the old.

Anyhow thanks for the discussion :wave:
 
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HARK!

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Sure, I'll ask that.
Has Elohim called Israel back into the land?

Not by my understanding of scripture. Not by the understanding of the Rabbis who spoke out against Zionism for about the last 100 years. I'm not deep into eschatology; but I'm convinced that Isaiah is not 83% wrong. Have you been called back into the land? I haven't.
 
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guevaraj

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The Kohen Gadol was not delegated to making all types of sacrifices, therefore that responsibility would not have been transferred.
Brother, we need awareness of our assumptions! Jesus is not of the "order" of the Levitical Priesthood and that separation, of the duties of the High Priest, is of the Levitical Priesthood. You assume that separation exists, when it may not exist, in this other priestly "order". Jesus through this other priestly "order" can fulfill all the demands of God because we know little about this other "order" of priests, except that it means that Jesus is both Priest and King. It is also worth noting that the offerings of this other priestly "order" were "bread and wine" (Genesis 14:18 NIV) and mentioned are no animal sacrifices.

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. (Hebrews 7:11-16 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Clare73

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Where in the world did you get that translation? It contradicts scripture.
(CLV) Hb 8:13
In saying "new," He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.
(CLV) Hb 8:8
For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new (Renewed Kainos) covenant,
The Greek word being used here is "Kainos" which means renewed, or refreshed, not "Neos" which means brand new.
Would you please come over here and pick me up off the floor!
Where in the world did you get that translation?
You got it just backwards. . .in this unbelievable gloss.

Actually, kainos is new, differing in character (used of the New Covenant),
while neos is a reproduction of the old in quality and character (not used of the New Covenant). And speaking of unbelievable:

In what universe is a "renewed" covenant stated some 30 years after its "renewal" to be old, decrepit, near its disappearance" (expired)?
In what universe is a bilateral covenant "renewed" by a unilateral covenant?
In what universe is a covenant cut in the blood of an animal "renewed" in a covenant cut in the blood of the Son of God?
In what universe does "renewal" of the same covenant require a different Mediator?
In what universe is a covenant conditioned on works of law keeping "renewed" in a covenant conditioned on faith apart from works of lawkeeping?

To maintain that the New Covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ is the renewal of the Sinaitic Covenant is absurd on its face.

If the New Covenant is related to any covenant, it would be the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant of grace--salvation by faith.
The author of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31:31.
(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (Chadash) covenant with the house of Israel and »the house of Judah.
According to The TWOT, the Hebrew word chadash means “to repair, rebuild or renew.”
The translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word kainos for the Hebrew chadash, for Jerermiah 31:31.
According to those who translated the Hebrew into Greek almost 300 years before the birth of Christ, chadash means "new thing,"
as in new king, new house, new ropes, etc. (Isaiah 43:19; Jeremiah 31:22, 31; Exodus 1:8; Deuteronomy 20:5; Judges 16:11; etc.)
YHWH did not nullify his covenant with Moses, David, and the prophets. Those who are obedient to the Father's will will se them in due time.
He renewed his covenant with Israel, who broke his covenant. This time he wrote his laws where they are not so easy to ignore.
The Sinaitic covenant, which was not with David or the prophets specifically, was temporarily added to the Abrahamic covenant until
the Messiah had come (Galatians 3:19, Romans 5:20) when it would then expire (Hebrews 8:13), "growing old and decrepit,
near its disappearance."
The Aaronic Priesthood is different than the Levitical Priesthood.
Biblical basis for two covenant priesthoods at the same time? . . .the New Covenant priesthood of Melchizedek is forever.
(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.
(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,
(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
YHWH's Torah, instruction, direction, is a reflection of his nature. YHWH doesn't change, therefore neither does his reflection.
(CLV) Hb 7:11
If, indeed, then, perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for the people have been placed under law with it), what need is there still for a different priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not said to be according to the order of Aaron?
(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,
The operative word here is "transferred," not "changed."
The operative word is metatithemi (change, remove, translate) of the priesthood, and metathesis of the law, which law was set aside
(Hebrews 7:18-19), not "transferred," and replaced with the grace of Christ, just as the priesthhod of Aaron was set aside, not transferred,
and replaced with the High Priest, Jesus Christ.
(CLV) Eph 2:15
(the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees (δογμασιν DOGMA), that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;
What was nullified was the man made law of the imposters posing as the temple "Priests."
For example, see the preceding verse:
(CLV) Eph 2:14
For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier
Can you show me where, in the Torah, YHWH ordered such a barrier?
Did the text state that God ordered the barrier? . . .straw man?
The barrier created itself with the defilement laws which kept the Jews from associating with the defiled Gentiles.
Removing the Levitical laws and regulations of defilement, etc. removed the barrier that kept the Jews from associating with the Gentiles.

It is the Levitical laws and regulations that were abolished (Ephesians 2:15), not "man made laws of imposters," because it was
the Levitical laws and
regulations that created the bariier.
Paul is not contradicting Yahshua.
He makes it clear here:
(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.
Precisely, in denying the law's role in savlation/justification by faith apart from the law, Paul is not nullifying the law, rather he is
establishing it on its right basis, apart from salvation/justification and in sanctification/holiness by obedience in the Holy Spirit.
 
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ARBITER01

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(CLV) Hb 8:13
In saying "new," He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.

The Greek word being used here is "Kainos" which means renewed, or refreshed, not "Neos" which means brand new.

Oh really,.....

- Original: καινός
- Transliteration: Kainos
- Phonetic: kahee-nos'
- Definition:
1. new
a. as respects form
1. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
b. as respects substance
1. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

- Origin: of uncertain affinity
- TDNT entry: 10:27,4
- Part(s) of speech: Adjective

- Strong's: Of uncertain affinity;
new (especially in freshness; while G3501 is properly so with respect to age): - new.
 
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guevaraj

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(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.
Brother, the part that lasts above is "a man", Jesus, serving as Priest, shadowed by the Levitical priesthood.
(CLV) Jer 33:20-21
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time, then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.
The part that lasts above is "the priests", the "priesthood" of all believers, and not the shadow with the Levites.

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:9-10 NIV)​

That we may declare the praises of Him who called us out of darkness into His wonderful light. "Priests" to serve our God!

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:10 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Bob S

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I cut my teeth on the KJV; yet nowhere in the KJV have I found a verse that says the 10 Commandments have been done away with.


Luke 16:17

King James Version


17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
You probably have read 2Cor3:6-11 but like all who believe man is under the dictates of the 10 commandments, you have not associated what Paul was referring.

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Verse 7 tells us that the 10 commandments WERE glorious. Notice where Paul referred to the 10 it is in the past tense. Verse 11 sums up the fact that the once glorious 10 commandments has been done away.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sure they were. I didn't write that they were not. Both could not have had the covenant given at Sinai now could they. They were under laws, but just as you and I they were not under the covenant given to Israel

All of the laws given to Israel except for the laws dealing with morality are excess baggage for Christians.

It is not what I think, it is what Jesus said. Jn 15:9-13

It is because you do not understand the word Torah. Then you would agree with me. Why won't you answer my questions?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Verse 7 tells us that the 10 commandments WERE glorious. Notice where Paul referred to the 10 it is in the past tense. Verse 11 sums up the fact that the once glorious 10 commandments has been done away.

You completely misunderstand the context. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. That is the curse of the law. Yeshua became a curse for us. That is what is done away...death.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sure they were. I didn't write that they were not. Both could not have had the covenant given at Sinai now could they.

Lets take just the 10 then? You say they appeared at Sinai? Paul disagrees with you. So sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. No law then no death? “Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death (the curse of the law) through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned” “…death reigned From Adam to Moses"...so if there was sin and death (and there was), there was law...Torah. Cain sinned and committed murder. I could go on...all 10 were broken before Moshe at Sinai...beginning at Gan Eden.
 
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Bob S

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You completely misunderstand the context. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. That is the curse of the law. Yeshua became a curse for us. That is what is done away...death.
Sin was transgression of the commands God gave Adam. It does not ever say Adam's sin was against the 10 commandments. If death is what is done away why do all people die?

No, my friend, the subject of the paragraph is what was written on stones. What was written on those stones was glorious, so glorious they reflected off Moses' face, but that glory faded as Israel's guide. The glory of the Holy Spirit is more glorious than the glory of what was written on stones. In fact, what was once glorious was done away and man's guide is now the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that prompts us to do what was implanted in us at conception, morality.

I knew that you would find some way to wiggle out of what those verses are really telling us. All Sabbath observers that I have approached with those verses have done the same thing.

6 He is the one who has helped us tell others about his new agreement to save them. We do not tell them that they must obey every law of God or die; but we tell them there is life for them from the Holy Spirit. The old way, trying to be saved by keeping the Ten Commandments, ends in death; in the new way, the Holy Spirit gives them life.

7 Yet that old system of law that led to death began with such glory that people could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For as he gave them God’s law to obey, his face shone out with the very glory of God—though the brightness was already fading away. 8 Shall we not expect far greater glory in these days when the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9 If the plan that leads to doom was glorious, much more glorious is the plan that makes men right with God. 10 In fact, that first glory as it shone from Moses’ face is worth nothing at all in comparison with the overwhelming glory of the new agreement. 11 So if the
old system that faded into nothing was full of heavenly glory, the glory of God’s new plan for our salvation is certainly far greater, for it is eternal. AMEN!!!!!
 
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Bob S

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Lets take just the 10 then? You say they appeared at Sinai? Paul disagrees with you. So sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. No law then no death? “Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death (the curse of the law) through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned” “…death reigned From Adam to Moses"...so if there was sin and death (and there was), there was law...Torah. Cain sinned and committed murder. I could go on...all 10 were broken before Moshe at Sinai...beginning at Gan Eden.
You, my friend, are so confused. There were 613 laws given at Sinai, not just 10. The "law" was all of the law not just what you think. Why does sin have to be judged by the laws given at Sinai? Why would Adam be judged because he may have shaved his sideburns or didn't allow the Levite priests to offer animals for his sins. The laws given to Israel certainly didn't apply to Noah. He was allowed to eat anything he wanted. The laws given to Israel concerning clean meat would not have applied to Adam who was not a meat eater. Adultery wouldn't have applied to Adam or Eve. There wasn't anyone else to ''adult".
 
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Bob S

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And Moses disagrees with you.
Lets take just the 10 then? You say they appeared at Sinai? Paul disagrees with you. So sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. No law then no death? “Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death (the curse of the law) through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned” “…death reigned From Adam to Moses"...so if there was sin and death (and there was), there was law...Torah. Cain sinned and committed murder. I could go on...all 10 were broken before Moshe at Sinai...beginning at Gan Eden.
Deut 5: Moses continued speaking to the people of Israel and said, “Listen carefully now to all these laws God has given you; learn them, and be sure to obey them!

2-3 “The Lord our God made a contract with you at Mount Horeb—not with your ancestors, but with you who are here alive today.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sin was transgression of the commands God gave Adam. It does not ever say Adam's sin was against the 10 commandments. If death is what is done away why do all people die?

I knew that you would find some way to wiggle out of what those verses are really telling us. All Sabbath observers that I have approached with those verses have done the same thing.

Wow really?!? Worse than I thought. Does not the scripture say "it is appointed that all men die once" Even Yeshua died. If death is what is done away why do all people die? THAT is what you ask? You really do not know...the only one "wiggling" here is you.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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You, my friend, are so confused. There were 613 laws given at Sinai, not just 10. The "law" was all of the law not just what you think. Why does sin have to be judged by the laws given at Sinai? Why would Adam be judged because he may have shaved his sideburns or didn't allow the Levite priests to offer animals for his sins. The laws given to Israel certainly didn't apply to Noah. He was allowed to eat anything he wanted. The laws given to Israel concerning clean meat would not have applied to Adam who was not a meat eater. Adultery wouldn't have applied to Adam or Eve. There wasn't anyone else to ''adult".

Not confused at all. You do not even know what the law is and you are "teaching" here? You can't see the forest for the trees...sad
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And Moses disagrees with you.

Deut 5: Moses continued speaking to the people of Israel and said, “Listen carefully now to all these laws God has given you; learn them, and be sure to obey them!

2-3 “The Lord our God made a contract with you at Mount Horeb—not with your ancestors, but with you who are here alive today.

No he agrees with both Paul and I. You are stuck in your narrative...as I said, it would be a waste of my time and you have proven that true.
 
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Not by my understanding of scripture. Not by the understanding of the Rabbis who spoke out against Zionism for about the last 100 years. I'm not deep into eschatology; but I'm convinced that Isaiah is not 83% wrong. Have you been called back into the land? I haven't.
No, I haven't been called to go live in Israel.

If I understand the drift of what you're saying correctly,
at least some of the laws only apply when living in Israel.

How do you decide which laws are just for inside of Israel?
 
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