JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

[BobRyan]

"God's Israel" are all those now who believe in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin

I agree with that part where you affirm the last 4 verses of Romans 2.

But you are leaving out the Romans 2:4-16 future judgment and the Rom 3:31 POV of Paul in the second half of your statement

 

[Clare73]

I agree with that part where you affirm the last 4 verses of Romans 2.

But you are leaving out the Romans 2:4-16 future judgment

Romans 2:14-15 are parenthetical and refer to the Gentiles, within a passage (Romans 2:1-16) that is laying the groundwork for God's individual judgment of each individual Jew who dies before the New Covenant. . .they will be judged when Christ comes (1 Corinthians 4:5) by the law of Moses, and only those who obeyed the law of Moses as it requires will be declared righteous (2:14). . .therefore, no one will be declared righteous according to the law of Moses (Romans 3:20) for "those who rely on the law are under a curse" (Galatians 3:10) because they cannot keep it as required.

Paul's purpose here is to show that no one is righteous, including the Jews as well as the Gentiles, which Gentiles he showed to be unrighteous according to the law of their conscience in Romans 1:18-32.
Paul is showing that God has locked up all men, Gentile and Jew alike, in sin (Romans 3:9-10, Romans 11:32) so that only "a righteousness from God through faith apart from law" can save (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21).

Romans 2:14-15 being parenthetical, v. 16 follows (v. 13): "it is those who obey the law that will be declared righteous. . .(v. 16): This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 4:5), as my gospel declares."

and the Rom 3:31 POV of Paul in the second half of your statement

The Rom 3:31 POV is that, although the law is powerless to save and only condemns, we do not, therefore, nullify the law, but rather we uphold the law by placing it on its right footing, not as the means of salvation, but as a means of sanctification/holiness through obedience of it in the Holy Spirit.

The law has nothing to do with righteousness. All righteousness is from God only, through faith apart from works (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21).

 

[Albion]

Yet I have only posted God's Word but it seems you do not believe it. (e.g. see post # 2075 linked; post # 2078 linked; post # 2080 linked; too many more posted). So I guess we will agree to disagree here.

The problem is that you and others appear, from all that we can tell, to insist upon the validity of only SOME of God's word.

That's what I read each time the New Testament verses that tell of the early Christians worshipping on Sunday, and why they did...

...gets answered by a Sabbatarian saying that he's only going to go by what he finds in the Old Testament from before Christ even founded his church.

I, for one, cannot simply dismiss part of the word of God like that.

 

[HARK!]

What do you mean by "in covenant"?
Which covenant?

Great discussion, btw!

All of YHWH's covenants are still valid, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahmic, Levitic, etc.; but this statement refers to the Mosaic and Yashuaic covenants.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Your false narrative is neither Adam of Abraham was under the laws of the Sinai covenant. Torah = the five books of Moses constituting the Pentateuch and the word was invented in 1547AD. To try to tell us Adam had the first five books of Scripture is a false narrative. Man is born with the sense of right and wrong. Morality laws are forever. Adam had the laws of morality and we have the same laws. When we treat our fellow man with the love Jesus asked us to do, we are keeping the laws of morality just as man has done or should have done since the beginning. All the extra laws of the Torah were excess baggage and taken away at Calvary.

It has been a waste of time trying to get some to realize the real truth of Jesus words in John 15. 9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

The commands Jesus kept was Torah. The commands Jesus asked the disciples to keep were Jesus commands. They are the same commands Jesus disciples are to keep today.

Well no, actually you are wrong. Adam and Abraham are part of those books LOL! So you think to love God and your neighbor is "excess baggage"?? So you think Yeshua's Toratot/Halakhot are different than the Father's? A house divided can not stand...

 

[HARK!]

...gets answered by a Sabbatarian saying that he's only going to go by what he finds in the Old Testament from before Christ even founded his church.

Are you saying that the assembly (church) which included Moses, was not founded in Yahshua, even though the message of Moses was about Yahushua? Are you saying that the assembly (church) of Abraham wasn't founded in Yahshua, even though Abraham saw Yahshua's day?

 

[Clare73]

All of YHWH's covenants are still valid, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahmic, Levitic, etc.; but this statement refers to the Mosaic and Yashuaic covenants.

But the NT reveals that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13),
that the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood is ended, being replaced with the eternal order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:15-18), and
that the law is changed (Hebrews 7:12), its commandments and regulations being abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15).

So how does that work?

 

[Leaf473]

All of YHWH's covenants are still valid, Adamic, Noahic, Abrahmic, Levitic, etc.; but this statement refers to the Mosaic and Yashuaic covenants.

Do you mean that in order for the stoning to take place, the person doing the work on the Sabbath or the people who would do the stoning, or both, would have to be in the Mosaic and Yashuaic covenants?

 

[Albion]

Are you saying that the assembly (church) which included Moses, was not founded in Yahshua, even though the message of Moses was about Yahushua? Are you saying that the assembly (church) of Abraham wasn't founded in Yahshua, even though Abraham saw Yahshua's day?

No.

 

[HARK!]

But the NT reveals that the Mosaic Covenant is obsolete (Hebrews 8:13),

Where in the world did you get that translation? It contradicts scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:13
In saying "new," He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.

The Greek word being used here is "Kainos" which means renewed, or refreshed, not "Neos" which means brand new.

(CLV) Hb 8:8
For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new (Renewed Kainos) covenant,

The author of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31:31.

(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (Chadash) covenant with the house of Israel and »the house of Judah.

According to The TWOT, the Hebrew word chadash means “to repair, rebuild or renew.”

The translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word kainos for the Hebrew chadash, for Jerermiah 31:31.

YHWH did not nullify his covenant with Moses, David, and the prophets. Those who are obedient to the Father's will will se them in due time.

He renewed his covenant with Israel, who broke his covenant. This time he wrote his laws where they are not so easy to ignore.

that the Aaronic (Levitical) priesthood is ended, being replaced

The Aaronic Priesthood is different than the Levitical Priesthood.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

priesthood is ended, being replaced with eternal order of Melchizedek, and
that the law is changed (Hebrews 7:12)

YHWH's Torah, instruction, direction, is a reflection of his nature. YHWH doesn't change, therefore neither does his reflection.

(CLV) Hb 7:11
If, indeed, then, perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for the people have been placed under law with it), what need is there still for a different priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not said to be according to the order of Aaron?

(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

The operative word here is "transferred," not "changed."

Of course the law applicable to the Kohen Gadol would follow the Kohen Gadol.

its commandments and regulations being abolished on the cross (Ephesians 2:15).

(CLV) Eph 2:15
(the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees (δογμασιν DOGMA), that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;

What was nullified was the man made law of the imposters posing as the temple "Priests."

For example, see the preceding verse:

(CLV) Eph 2:14
For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier

Can you show me where, in the Torah, YHWH ordered such a barrier?

Paul is not contradicting Yahshua.

He makes it clear here:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

If you still believe that he is; and that he's schizophrenic; then you should ignore him; and follow your Messiah.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness (keeping the law) should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[Bob S]

Well no, actually you are wrong. Adam and Abraham are part of those books LOL!

Sure they were. I didn't write that they were not. Both could not have had the covenant given at Sinai now could they. They were under laws, but just as you and I they were not under the covenant given to Israel

So you think to love God and your neighbor is "excess baggage"??

Did you have a problem reading my post??? Seems you did. All of the laws given to Israel except for the laws dealing with morality are excess baggage for Christians.

So you think Yeshua's Toratot/Halakhot are different than the Father's? A house divided can not stand...

It is not what I think, it is what Jesus said. Jn 15:9-13

 

[HARK!]

No.

Then it's all the same assembly?

 

[Bob S]

Where in the world did you get that translation? It contradicts scripture.

(CLV) Hb 8:13
In saying "new," He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.

The Greek word being used here is "Kainos" which means renewed, or refreshed, not "Neos" which means brand new.

(CLV) Hb 8:8
For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new (Renewed Kainos) covenant,

The author of Hebrews is quoting Jeremiah 31:31.

(CLV) Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (Chadash) covenant with the house of Israel and »the house of Judah.

According to The TWOT, the Hebrew word chadash means “to repair, rebuild or renew.”

The translators of the Septuagint used the Greek word kainos for the Hebrew chadash, for Jerermiah 31:31.

YHWH did not nullify his covenant with Moses, David, and the prophets. Those who are obedient to the Father's will will se them in due time.

He renewed his covenant with Israel, who broke his covenant. This time he wrote his laws where they are not so easy to ignore.



The Aaronic Priesthood is different than the Levitical Priesthood.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.



YHWH's Torah, instruction, direction, is a reflection of his nature. YHWH doesn't change, therefore neither does his reflection.

(CLV) Hb 7:11
If, indeed, then, perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for the people have been placed under law with it), what need is there still for a different priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not said to be according to the order of Aaron?

(CLV) Hb 7:12
For, the priesthood being transferred, of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

The operative word here is "transferred," not "changed."

Of course the law applicable to the Kohen Gadol would follow the Kohen Gadol.




(CLV) Eph 2:15
(the enmity in His flesh), nullifying the law of precepts in decrees (δογμασιν DOGMA), that He should be creating the two, in Himself, into one new humanity, making peace;

What was nullified was the man made law of the imposters posing as the temple "Priests."

For example, see the preceding verse:

(CLV) Eph 2:14
For He is our Peace, Who makes both one, and razes the central wall of the barrier

Can you show me where, in the Torah, YHWH ordered such a barrier?

Paul is not contradicting Yahshua.

He makes it clear here:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

If you still believe that he is; and that he's schizophrenic; then you should ignore him; and follow your Messiah.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness (keeping the law) should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Is the KJV version that explanes that the 10 commandments have been done away a version you cull?

 

[HARK!]

Do you mean that in order for the stoning to take place, the person doing the work on the Sabbath or the people who would do the stoning, or both, would have to be in the Mosaic and Yashuaic covenants?

Yes. YHWH didn't call Israel to travel outside of the land, and to stone Pagans for not adhering to the Shabbat.

 

[HARK!]

Is the KJV version that explanes that the 10 commandments have been done away a version you cull?

I cut my teeth on the KJV; yet nowhere in the KJV have I found a verse that says the 10 Commandments have been done away with.


Luke 16:17

King James Version

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes. YHWH didn't call Israel to travel outside of the land, and to stone Pagans for not adhering to the Shabbat.

I see. Did God call us to travel outside the land?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ It is exactly what scripture says. Here is the part you left out....

It was already answered earlier as all sin which was already stated and why I added the context back in. Hebrews 10:1 says [1], For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The Greek used here in "year by year" ἐνιαυτός is a derivation: prolongation from a primary ἔνος (a year) meaning continually throughout the year. That is all sins throughout the year by year could not make the comers thereunto perfect. So we are talking about all sin that was brought into the earthly Sanctuary throughout the year

For example other translations of Hebrews 10:1 say it this way...

Young's Literal Translation
For the law having a shadow of the coming good things -- not the very image of the matters, every year, by the same sacrifices that they offer continually, is never able to make perfect those coming near,

American Standard Version
For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things, can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect them that draw nigh.

New American Standard Bible
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.

Berean Literal Bible
For the Law, having a shadow of the good things coming, not the form of the things themselves, never is able each year, with the same sacrifices which they offer continually, to perfect those drawing near.

All sin was to be brought into the Sanctuary every year by year which culminated in the cleansing of all sin from the Sanctuary on the great day of atonement once a year which leads us into Hebrews 10:3

.............

Now in Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. Reference to Leviticus 23:27-32 which is the great day of atonement (Yom Kippur) or the cleansing of the Sanctuary from all the sins of God's people collected throughout the year. So back to the original answer that was already provided = Yom Kippur is ATONEMENT FOR ALL SIN and the cleansing of the Sanctuary for all sin through out the year! In the new covenant Jesus death on the cross is God's sacrifice for all the sins of the whole World (John 1:29) once and for all *Hebrews 10:10. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins with His own blood so that we can have God's forgiveness.

..............

God's Word not mine dear friend. Now what is it that you do not believe here?

Your response here...

Your derivation doesn't line up with all scripture.

Scripture doesn't contradict itself.

The Kohen Gadol was not delegated to making all types of sacrifices, therefore that responsibility would not have been transferred. YHWH covenant with the Levitical Priesthood is eternal; and they will be making sacrifices in the Kingdom to come.

Aside for that, the Apostles continued to contribute to YHWH's table, long after Yahshua had ascended.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. Your only part quoting me again so I added the complete post above for reference. Please forgive me but I believe what your teaching is not biblical HARK! according to the new covenant scriptures and promises from Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22. These scriptures show that all the old covenant laws for remission of sins that include the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices under the old covenant are now fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ to which they pointed to *Colossians 2:17 in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:6 of the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12. This does not mean that they are abolished but continued in Christs ministration on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man.

Jesus is now our great High Priest of the order of Melchisedek according to Hebrews 7:1-25 and the Levitical Priesthood is fulfilled and continued in Jesus as our great high Priest who now ministers on out behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 8:1-6. Time to leave the shadows dear friend (Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17). In the new covenant it is the blood of God's dear son that cleanses us from all unrighteousness not the blood of bulls and goats (Hebrews 9:1-28). According to the scriptures if we think our salvation is anything that is outside the gift of God's dear son we will be greatly disappointed at the second coming. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant. Time to leave the shadow of the body of Christ. Of course you are free to believe as you wish as your salvation is between you and God. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. I think we will leave it here and agree to disagree.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[HARK!]

I see. Did God call us to travel outside the land?

The more appropriate question would be, has Elohim called Israel back into the land?

 

[HARK!]

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. Your only part quoting me again so I added the complete post above for reference. What your teaching is not biblical HARK! according to the new covenant scriptures and promises from Hebrews 7:1-25; ...........These scriptures show that all the old covenant laws for remission of sins that include the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices under the old covenant are now fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ to which they pointed to

I partially quote you on what is relevant to my point. I did the same in this post. I have no interest in addressing every side branch of every bunny hole you might want to go down.

Now I just read Hebrews 7:1-25 and it doesn't support your assertion.

I didn't read the rest of the wall of text in your response, because I'm not into going on snipe hunts. Telling me to read the whole Bible, and that proves your point, doesn't cut it.

I've read the whole Bible lots of times; and it doesn't support your unsupported statements.

If you would like to be effective at proving your point with scripture, you might do well to take it verse by verse.

Sorry my friend, the author of Hebrews did not fail the Deuteronomy 13 test. He is not contradicting YHWH himself.

This is a product of your imagination.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

I hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I partially quote you on what is relevant to my point. I did the same in this post. I have no interest in addressing every side branch of every bunny hole you might want to go down.

Now I just read Hebrews 7:1-25 and it doesn't support your assertion.

I didn't read the rest of the wall of text in your response, because I'm not into going on snipe hunts. Telling me to read the whole Bible, and that proves your point, doesn't cut it.

I've read the whole Bible lots of times; and it doesn't support your unsupported statements.

If you would like to be effective at proving your point with scripture, you might do well to take it verse by verse.

Sorry my friend, the author of Hebrews did not fail the Deuteronomy 13 test. He is not contradicting YHWH himself.

This is a product of your imagination.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Jer 33:20
Thus says Yahweh: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night so that daytime and night fail to come about in their proper time,

(CLV) Jer 33:21
then also My covenant could be annulled with David My servant, so that he should not come to have a son reigning on his throne, and that with the Levites, the priests, My ministers.

I hope this helps.

You did not even read what you were quoting from did you. If you did it seems you did not understand it or you would not have posted the above.

According to Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22 the old covenant laws for remission of sins that include the Levitical Priesthood, the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices under the old covenant are now fulfilled and continued in the body of Christ to which they pointed to *Colossians 2:17 in the new covenant based on better promises *Hebrews 8:6 of the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12. This does not mean that they are abolished but continued in Christs ministration on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man.

As posted earlier, Jesus is now our great High Priest of the order of Melchisedek according to Hebrews 7:1-25 and the Levitical Priesthood is fulfilled and continued in Jesus as our great high Priest who now ministers on out behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 8:1-6. Time to leave the shadows dear friend (Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17).

In the new covenant it is the blood of God's dear son that cleanses us from all unrighteousness not the blood of bulls and goats (Hebrews 9:1-28). According to the scriptures if we think our salvation is anything that is outside the gift of God's dear son we will be greatly disappointed at the second coming. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant.

Time to leave the shadow of the body of Christ. Of course you are free to believe as you wish as your salvation is between you and God. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Anyhow all good I will leave it between you and God to work through as we are just going around in circles as you seem to be more about wanting to be right then maybe considering you might be wrong and receive Gods' blessing and correction. You have been provided the scriptures and of course you are free to believe as you wish as that is between you and God. We will agree to disagree.

If you reject the above scriptures already shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22, then your still living in the old covenant that requires animal sacrifice for sins and a Levite Priest with an earthly Sanctuary. This teaching is not biblical and rejects Christ as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; Hebrews 10:10; Hebrews 9:1-28 and the blood of the new covenant in Christ that now cleanses us from all unrighteousness through the blood of God's dear son. *1 John 1:7; Hebrews 12:24; Hebrews 13:20; Ephesians 2:13.

Something dear friend you should at least take the time to pray about.