Jesus and nonviolence

[Petros2015]

Leo Tolstoy wrote "What I Believe" and based his pacifism on Christ's teachings. He later influenced Ghandi. I've listened to it many times.

I don't agree with Tolstoy in all points - he seems to feel we are called to do this by ourselves and does not expect any supernatural aid. But he approached the gospels from a different view, just focusing on the teachings and came to the conclusion the Christ was the Messiah.

LibriVox

 

[ExodusMe]

First, (and really, I needn't go beyond this, but I will) Jesus tells us that He brings us a new commandment... to love our enemies as we love ourselves. But why? What has changed? Well, clearly several things change after his death, but that is a different discussion, so I will keep to the topic. So how then do we love our enemies? Well, Jesus tells us exactly how, and it's not easy. He tells us to turn the other cheek... but more importantly, he tells us right after that, "Do not resist an evil person." That is a HUGE statement to make and it is crystal clear. But somehow, that part of it usually gets left out of the story. He also tells us, "If he asks for your shirt, give him your coat also." I think a lot of Christians look at this and think, "Well... maybe in a perfect world." But Jesus certainly didn't live in a perfect world. What if He actually meant what He said? And where is our faith if we disregard it? Can we truly believe?

The love your enemy as yourself quotes are from Luke 6:27 / Matthew 5:44 / Mark 12:31 / John 13:34 . The quote from John isn't to love your enemy as yourself, but to love one another as Jesus has loved us. I just included it, because I couldn't find the exact match similar to the other gospels. The problem with your interpretation (that love your enemy = non-violence always) is that you are not evaluating it in the context of the day and broadly construing it to any culture/scenario. It is dangerous to say the least. You are commanding followers of Jesus to not even defend their own families. I would tread lightly.

There are other interpretations for the command to 'turn the other cheek'. For instance, in Jesus' day Roman soldiers would backhand those that were inferior to them. In this case, the command Jesus is making is for people who are oppressed by some authority. It is a way of peaceful subversion to an authority who is oppressing them. This is not a call to be a doormat to brutality. What kind of example would that make? You sit there and watch as innocent people are gutted in front of you? I highly doubt God would be pleased.

I'll just let you respond to this first as it seems to be the bedrock of your argument.

 

[Halbhh]

The post I was referring to was this one, where you failed to quote Luke 19:27. You quoted 11-26, and left out 27.

Where? That's the opposite of what I tell people they should do. Where, what post?

Trying to get you to notice you were mistaken on that. That's only normal -- humans make mistakes. Wisdom to is admit we make mistakes, and then work to change.

 

[Halbhh]

Whether "slain", "cast into the lake of fire", etc. would you not agree that this is not non-violent behavior?

They are metaphors that are aimed to get people to wake up and notice how awful and extremely bad is that outcome of final and total death of the soul.

No reincarnation on that one. Refusing Love Itself, they die forever.

To communicate how awful that is, we have the dramatic metaphors, slain, outer darkness, torment, lake of fire. It's a wake up call.

 

[Sarah G]

On the subject of non-violence and as @ananda is here maybe I can ask about violence in Buddhism now. Do you think it is a sign of our general spiritual degeneration? I believe the Vedas speak of us being in the age of Kali Yuga, a period of quarrel and hypocrisy and general disregard for spiritual life. Is there something similar in Buddhism or maybe even the same thing, Kali Yuga? Are there issues within the Buddhist world similar to issues in the Christian world where one Christian seems at a total polar opposite in interpretation of the teachings and actions than another Christian (with both Christians thinking that the other is 'not a real Christian')?

Buddhism can be as violent as any other religion | Aeon Essays

 

[brinny]

I admire the thought of the OP, but I just don't think if my wife or children was having some violence done to them that God doesn't want me to defend them physically.

The thought is just too abstract and naive from reality.

Were American Christians wrong for defending the Jews of the Nazi Holocaust in WWII according to the OP?

Can you clarify whether 'non-violence' includes defending yourself physically? It sounds like you are taking it that way also as you say to turn the other cheek, etc..

Good point. In just the book of Isaiah we are admonished to speak out for and defend those who have no voice and/or are unable to defend themselves.

I agree about naivete' and that we are to use wisdom and be discerning and to always act justly, as it is written in this verse:

"He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" ~Micah 6:8

Otherwise we are colluding with evil, which God abhors.

 

[Jesuscentered]

The love your enemy as yourself quotes are from Luke 6:27 / Matthew 5:44 / Mark 12:31 / John 13:34 . The quote from John isn't to love your enemy as yourself, but to love one another as Jesus has loved us. I just included it, because I couldn't find the exact match similar to the other gospels. The problem with your interpretation (that love your enemy = non-violence always) is that you are not evaluating it in the context of the day and broadly construing it to any culture/scenario. It is dangerous to say the least. You are commanding followers of Jesus to not even defend their own families. I would tread lightly.

There are other interpretations for the command to 'turn the other cheek'. For instance, in Jesus' day Roman soldiers would backhand those that were inferior to them. In this case, the command Jesus is making is for people who are oppressed by some authority. It is a way of peaceful subversion to an authority who is oppressing them. This is not a call to be a doormat to brutality. What kind of example would that make? You sit there and watch as innocent people are gutted in front of you? I highly doubt God would be pleased.

I'll just let you respond to this first as it seems to be the bedrock of your argument.

Let me start by asking... What would the appropriate "context of the day" and "culture/scenario" be in order to adhere to Jesus' command? Is there an appropriate context? Was Jesus' culture better or worse than our's today? Did his disciples fight back, or did just about all of them die horrible deaths at the hands of nonchristians? I'm sure you know the answer to that.

I just love the "other interpretations" of turn the other cheek. But what about "Do not resist an evil person"? How do you interpret that? And what exactly does "peaceful subversion" mean in this context? Your argument seems counter intuitive.

 

[ananda]

Where? That's the opposite of what I tell people they should do. Where, what post?

Trying to get you to notice you were mistaken on that. That's only normal -- humans make mistakes. Wisdom to is admit we make mistakes, and then work to change.

This post ... my apologies, I forgot to insert the URL:

Jesus and nonviolence

 

[ananda]

They are metaphors that are aimed to get people to wake up and notice how awful and extremely bad is that outcome of final and total death of the soul.

No reincarnation on that one. Refusing Love Itself, they die forever.

To communicate how awful that is, we have the dramatic metaphors, slain, outer darkness, torment, lake of fire. It's a wake up call.

Are you claiming that Jesus didn't mean exactly what he said, in Luke 19:27?

 

[brinny]

Let me start by asking... What would the appropriate "context of the day" and "culture/scenario" be in order to adhere to Jesus' command? Is there an appropriate context? Was Jesus' culture better or worse than our's today? Did his disciples fight back, or did just about all of them die horrible deaths at the hands of nonchristians? I'm sure you know the answer to that.

I just love the "other interpretations" of turn the other cheek. But what about "Do not resist an evil person"? How do you interpret that? And what exactly does "peaceful subversion" mean in this context? Your argument seems counter intuitive.

Does this apply to police officers? Security guards? Does it apply to having ones door locked securely? Would having locks on ones door be "resisting evil/an evil person"?

 

[Halbhh]

Let me start by asking... What would the appropriate "context of the day" and "culture/scenario" be in order to adhere to Jesus' command? Is there an appropriate context? Was Jesus' culture better or worse than our's today? Did his disciples fight back, or did just about all of them die horrible deaths at the hands of nonchristians? I'm sure you know the answer to that.

I just love the "other interpretations" of turn the other cheek. But what about "Do not resist an evil person"? How do you interpret that? And what exactly does "peaceful subversion" mean in this context? Your argument seems counter intuitive.

One of the wonderful things about Christ's wordings is that when He gives commands to us like

"Do not resist an evil person"
"Love your enemy"
"Forgive....seventy times seven"
"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you."

Is we don't need to understand the local culture for these.

But that doesn't mean we will always get the meaning and keep it the first time or 5 that we hear it.

I didn't. I was too caught up in other parts of that same passage, and too focused on those other parts to take in this part, but now I'm ready to take this part in.

As I see it, to not resist an evil person means not to fight against them. To not fight a person intentionally doing wrong, but to instead show Christ in my words, deeds and thoughts in such moments, always.

 

[ExodusMe]

@Jesuscentered

Peaceful subversion is a way to to overthrow an authority that wishes to oppress you. They can't oppress someone that doesn't care about being oppressed. Here is a quick link to an article on it. I didn't vet the thing entirely so I am not sure if I fully agree with it, but it should provide the jist “Turning the Other Cheek”: Jesus’ Peaceful Plan to Challenge Injustice

The chapter states what to 'not resist an evil person' means. It follows after the command "But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you." This is what it means to 'not resist an evil person'. There is no command to be a doormat to brutality.

 

[Halbhh]

This post ... my apologies, I forgot to insert the URL:

Jesus and nonviolence

When I copied and pasted in the Parable, I did paste in all the verses, including 27, the first time I quoted the passage. Perhaps you didn't see it though since it is nestled with verse 26 there. It would be very odd for me to exclude a verse, since I tell people over and over not to!

 

[ananda]

On the subject of non-violence and as @ananda is here maybe I can ask about violence in Buddhism now. Do you think it is a sign of our general spiritual degeneration? I believe the Vedas speak of us being in the age of Kali Yuga, a period of quarrel and hypocrisy and general disregard for spiritual life. Is there something similar in Buddhism or maybe even the same thing, Kali Yuga?

Yes, there is something similar, and it is spoken of in Dighanikaya 1: Brahmajala Sutta. It speaks of the increasing negativity and dissension among beings, leading to our devolution.

Are there issues within the Buddhist world similar to issues in the Christian world where one Christian seems at a total polar opposite in interpretation of the teachings and actions than another Christian (with both Christians thinking that the other is 'not a real Christian')?

Buddhism can be as violent as any other religion | Aeon Essays

In many respects, according to the earliest Buddhist scriptures, Buddhism is a religion of one. There are no intermediaries in the Buddhism as I practice it, so, I am essentially the "High Priest" for a disciple of one - myself - speaking authoritatively for my Buddhism, as only I practice and understand it.

 

[ananda]

When I copied and pasted in the Parable, I did paste in all the verses, including 27, the first time I quoted the passage. Perhaps you didn't see it though since it is nestled with verse 26 there. It would be very odd for me to exclude a verse, since I tell people over and over not to!

I claimed at 11:58 am, in this post, that you failed to include verse 27.

It appears you went back to your post to add verse 27 a minute later, at 11:59: "Last edited: Today at 11:59 AM"

 

[Halbhh]

Are you claiming that Jesus didn't mean exactly what he said, in Luke 19:27?

It's what it seems to be as you encounter it reading the full gospel (only about 50-60 pages) -- a clear parable. That means the terms are metaphors. In my first answer to you, I explained some terms, what the metaphors meant. You can read more than just a piece, and you will get more.

 

[Halbhh]

I claimed at 11:58 am, in this post, that you failed to include verse 27.

It appears you went back to your post to add verse 27 a minute later, at 11:59: "Last edited: Today at 11:59 AM"

Ok. I see.

I do edit a lot, almost every post. I can see why you'd make a guess like that.

 

[ananda]

It's what it seems to be as you encounter it reading the full gospel (only about 50-60 pages) -- a clear parable. That means the terms are metaphors. In my first answer to you, I explained some terms, what the metaphors meant. You can read more than just a piece, and you will get more.

What is "slay them before me" a metaphor for?

 

[ananda]

Ok. I see.

I do edit a lot, almost every post. I can see why you'd make a guess like that.

My apologies if I was in error.

 

[Halbhh]

What is "slay them before me" a metaphor for?

Final and total death of the soul. No reincarnation.