Jesus’ Crucifixion – Nisan 14 in 30 AD or 33 AD?: A Robust Methodology to Determine Julian Dates in

[Yahudim]

Good point, and adequate for farmers and worshipers alike.

However, there was a background astronomical system of precision operating too. Here is my link. Pre-Metonic Hebrew Calendar Can you bring it to the attention of brother Murphey?

Thank you Brother. I will gladly pass that along.

 

[Yahudim]

And when you look at Scripture you'll see that none of the Canaanite names crept in until after the Exodus...and the first instance we read of them are in 1 Kings 6:1; and it's not until after the Babylonian captivity that we see Babylonian names being used. Prior to the Exodus there are no month or day names ever...yet the Mr. Murphey seems to wholly ignore this plain fact!

That said one must show what calendar system was actually being used when Moses recorded the dates for the Flood in the story of Noah. I can tell you it was not any man made calendar that's for sure...and seeing that none of the nations existed on the day Adam was created...why is no one examining what calendar Adam was following? There are no nations until after the Flood and the Tower of Babel incident.

Was Judea following the Adamic calendar during the time of Messiah? No. So all of this is irrelevant. Please try to stay on point.

 

[Humble Penny]

Was Judea following the Adamic calendar during the time of Messiah? No. So all of this is irrelevant. Please try to stay on point.

Actually yes they were following the Adamic calendar. You can tell this from the time Moses was first commanded to observe Passover in the 14th Day of the 1st Month of Spring (i.e. Abib) at the time of the Exodus. Notice that a Hebrew word and calendar term is used...not a Canaanite or Egyptian term: this means the ancient Hebrews were using the same calendar given to Adam. How do we know this? Simple all names prior to the Tower of Babel and the Flood are in Hebrew...and seeing that this calendar begins in the spring we know that the ancient Hebrews never observed the 7th Month which is now called Tishrei as the new year.

Furthermore while it is clear that later in history Jews used the pagan names in their writings when referring to calendar dates: it was only to reflect the times they were living in. The usage of pagan calendar names is not evidence that the Jews had adopted pagan calendar systems to observe the holy days of God, especially when God placed the ancient Hebrews on the Adamic calendar way back in the Exodus.

 

[Yahudim]

Actually yes they were following the Adamic calendar. You can tell this from the time Moses was first commanded to observe Passover in the 14th Day of the 1st Month of Spring (i.e. Abib) at the time of the Exodus. Notice that a Hebrew word and calendar term is used...not a Canaanite or Egyptian term: this means the ancient Hebrews were using the same calendar given to Adam. How do we know this? Simple all names prior to the Tower of Babel and the Flood are in Hebrew...and seeing that this calendar begins in the spring we know that the ancient Hebrews never observed the 7th Month which is now called Tishrei as the new year.

Furthermore while it is clear that later in history Jews used the pagan names in their writings when referring to calendar dates: it was only to reflect the times they were living in. The usage of pagan calendar names is not evidence that the Jews had adopted pagan calendar systems to observe the holy days of God, especially when God placed the ancient Hebrews on the Adamic calendar way back in the Exodus.

Dear Brother, you confuse me. Month names aside, is the calendar being used by the Sanhedrin in the days of Messiah Y'shua reproducible today or no?

 

[Humble Penny]

Dear Brother, you confuse me. Month names aside, is the calendar being used by the Sanhedrin in the days of Messiah Y'shua reproducible today or no?

Brother there's nothing to be confused about...every single calendar which we have documented evidence of can be reproduced today. The Sanhedrin had no control over the Temple functions as that was the official duty of the Levitical priesthood, while there were some Pharisees and Sadducees who were of priestly descent: religious authority doesn't always equal Levitical priesthood...on the other hand Levitical priesthood always equals religious authority.

Bring able to reproduce a calendar system doesn't prove that was the main calendar used for the Temple functions of the Israelites nor the one being followed by the priesthood. You need to look at the priestly calendar to figure that out...and the Dead Sea Scrolls Mishmarot A (4Q320) shows that the Qumran Community understood which calendar the priests were following and using.

 

[Humble Penny]

@Phillip Hawley Something else I found strange in the work of our dear Mr. Murphey is that he failed to consult Mishmarot A (4Q330) as the word mishmaraot comes from the Hebrew mishmar literally "courses". And which courses exactly were being followed? Well aside from the course if the Sun and Moon we also see that they were tracking the 24 Priests chosen by lot by king David before his death; and this same order of priests was used we'll into the time of Yeshua and John's conceptions and births (see 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 cf. Luke 1:8).

Why did the Qumran Community begin with Gamul (22) instead of Jehoiarib (1) for creation? Well the only logical answer is that they counted backwards from the time David established the priesthood shortly before his death. Why this complexity when the priesthood wouldn't be in existence prior to David and Moses? It was a safeguard mechanism in order to prevent and catch tampering of the calendar as you have many things to check your dates against.

I believe generally that those of us discussing such important matters are clearly concerned with getting the information right...otherwise we wouldn't be discussing so heartily. That said I pray you don't take my disagreement as any attack on you or Mr. Murphey, I'm simply pointing out something's I noticed that were overlooked.

 

[daq]

@Phillip Hawley, the Mishmarot A calendar is not the Damascus a.k.a. Qumran calendar. This has been shown to HP with links provided a while back, but he either ignored what was said, or ignored the links altogether and chose not to believe the evidence presented.

The Tzaddokim at Damascus entirely ignored the lunar cycle in their calendar but HP has this idea that somehow they incorporated the moon cycles and uses the Mishmarot A calendar with a faulty reading of the Book of the Luminaries to substantiate what he believes.

 

[Yahudim]

Thanks Daq.

I would reiterate, I do not care about whose calendar was used, where it originated or how it was derived for the purpose of this discussion. I only care how the calendar was structured and how it was applied in a purely practical sense.

Again, this is about a mathematical approach to linking calendar systems; the actual practice of reckoning the Moedim in the time of Messiah with the modern western calendar - linked by a verifiable historical and/or astronomical event common to them both. Again, this is an algorithmic exercise, not a theological one. Think flowcharts, process loops, Boolean algebra and truth tables.

 

[Humble Penny]

Thanks Daq.

I would reiterate, I do not care about whose calendar was used, where it originated or how it was derived for the purpose of this discussion. I only care how the calendar was structured and how it was applied in a purely practical sense.

Again, this is about a mathematical approach to linking calendar systems; the actual practice of reckoning the Moedim in the time of Messiah with the modern western calendar - linked by a verifiable historical and/or astronomical event common to them both. Again, this is an algorithmic exercise, not a theological one. Think flowcharts, process loops, Boolean algebra and truth tables.

And you can't get a correct pagan date without knowing the actual calendar the ancient Hebrews used. Why? Because The Hebrews have the longest running continuous recorded history...they are followed closely by the Chinese.

 

[Humble Penny]

Thanks Daq.

I would reiterate, I do not care about whose calendar was used, where it originated or how it was derived for the purpose of this discussion. I only care how the calendar was structured and how it was applied in a purely practical sense.

Again, this is about a mathematical approach to linking calendar systems; the actual practice of reckoning the Moedim in the time of Messiah with the modern western calendar - linked by a verifiable historical and/or astronomical event common to them both. Again, this is an algorithmic exercise, not a theological one. Think flowcharts, process loops, Boolean algebra and truth tables.

And you can't get a correct pagan date without knowing the actual calendar the ancient Hebrews used. Why? Because The Hebrews have the longest running continuous recorded history...they are followed closely by the Chinese.

And keep in mind that the Romans have Aeneas as their great ancestor. And according to the ancient story he would settle near the Etruscans after the Trojan War and the burning of Troy. By this we know that the history of the Romans is quite recent, and the Hebrews are more ancient than they: therefore you can't use the Roman calendars correctly without knowing precisely how much time passed from creation to the founding of Rome in the 7th Olympiad.

 

[Yahudim]

@Humble Penny

It is as if you are purposefully ignoring everything I say.

 

[Humble Penny]

@Humble Penny

It is as if you are purposefully ignoring everything I say.

I'm actually showing some very important things Mr. Murphey had failed to consider...and seeing that you're my elder please forgive me...but it seems you ignoring these same things as well. As a result it leads to incorrect calculations

 

[Yahudim]

I'm actually showing some very important things Mr. Murphey had failed to consider...and seeing that you're my elder please forgive me...but it seems you ignoring these same things as well. As a result it leads to incorrect calculations

You are forgiven.

You say you can reproduce the algorithms of the calendar in use at the time of Messiah. Please do so.

How was the Abib observed? How were the Moedim reckoned? Did Yom HaBikkurim occur after the weekly Sabbath? How was the Omer counted? Was the new moon observed, calculated of some combination of both? Please be specific.

 

[Humble Penny]

You are forgiven.

You say you can reproduce the algorithms of the calendar in use at the time of Messiah. Please do so.

How was the Abib observed? How were the Moedim reckoned? Did Yom HaBikkurim occur after the weekly Sabbath? How was the Omer counted? Was the new moon observed, calculated of some combination of both? Please be specific.

Alright here are my tables showing my work:
These calendar files take the data given in Mishmarot A (4Q320) and follows the 6 Year Cyclr of the priests. I tried uploading my table for the Jubilee years which account for all 7,000 Years from Creation to the Final Judgment but, having trouble uploading...will try to upload in the next post.

 

[Humble Penny]

Here's the other table I referred to at the close of post #34:

You'll have to zoom in to see the data clearly on this one since I had to save it as a .pdf file.

 

[Humble Penny]

Alright here are my tables showing my work:
These calendar files take the data given in Mishmarot A (4Q320) and follows the 6 Year Cyclr of the priests. I tried uploading my table for the Jubilee years which account for all 7,000 Years from Creation to the Final Judgment but, having trouble uploading...will try to upload in the next post.

Here's the other table I referred to at the close of post #34:

You'll have to zoom in to see the data clearly on this one since I had to save it as a .pdf file.

In addition to what I've written in posts #34 and #35 in this thread I thought it would be helpful to give a little quick guide on how to navigate and make sense of the tables I've shared in the aforementioned posts. Below I've copy and pasted one of my posts from another thread:

We know the date for Yeshua's birth is wrong according to he Julian Calendar why? Because it wasn't the the one given to Adam and later to Moses. Therefore when you consider that the birth of Yeshua occured 5,470 Years from creation than this would bring you to the 4th Priestly Cycle which has the course of Abijah beginning on the 7th Day of the 6th Month (August-September), and it is in this month that Elizabeth conceived John; 6 Months later bring you to the end of the year and the time which Mary conceives Yeshua and visits her cousin Elizabeth:

From here you count the rest of the months and you'll see John was born sometime in the 5th Priestly Cycle in the 3rd Month (May-June); and 6 Months later Yeshua would be born somewhere in the 9th Month of that Year which would be November-December:

Other than that to understand how I figured this out I created a giant spreadsheet which shows you the Shemitah Week and how the 50 Year Jubilee Cycle fits within it:

1st Shemitah Year = 1st Priestly Cycle
2nd Shemitah Year = 2nd Priestly Cycle
3rd Shemitah Year = 3rd Priestly Cycle
4th Shemitah Year = 4th Priestly Cycle
5th Shemitah Year = 5th Priestly Cycle
6th Shemitah Year = 6th Preistly Cycle

The end result is that...

1. Year 50 = 2nd Priestly Cycle
2. Year 100 = 4th Priestly Cycle
3. Year 150 = 6th Priestly Cycle
4. Year 200 = 2nd Preistly Cycle
5. Year 250 = 4th Priestly Cycle
6. Year 300 = 6th Priestly Cycle
7. Year 350 = 2nd Priestly Cycle

Now it is clear to see that 1st Shemitah Year = 1st Priestly Cycle occurs every 151 and 301 Years right after the 6th Priestly Cycle.

This Jubile Spreadsheet will help you visualize what I've clearly written above.

 

[Filippus]

Forgive me for saying so, but your assumptions are in error. The Jewish calendar uses an intercalary method of adjustment to align lunar months with the solar year. Therefore it is a solar/lunar calendar. The same is true of the Babylonian calendar from which the Jewish people borrowed their month names.

Please consider, this is NOT about what the Jewish leadership SHOULD have done, vis a vis the Jewish calendar. It is about what actually DID happen during the era of Messiah's birth, life, death and resurrection.

Until you understand how these calendars operate, we will continue to talk at each other instead of to this topic.

According to the author, "[COLOR=#0000ff]In the region of the eastern Mediterranean and Levant, calendars were typically composed of 29 to 30-day, named months which are tied to individual lunar cycles, or lunations, as counted through a solar year marked by equinoxes and solstices; these are described as “lunisolar” calendars.
However, a recognized problem with these calendars was the fact that 12 lunar months, which each average to about 29.5 days, sum to about 354 days and so, fall short of the actual 365.2422-day solar year by about 11 days.

In order to account for this deficit and synchronize with the solar year, various calendars arose, both between societies and during the implementation of various evolutionary developments therein. It is fundamental to understand that the Babylonian lunisolar calendar was largely adopted by the Jews during their Babylonian captivity and then essentially continued to be used throughout the post-exilic era; even the Babylonian month-names replaced the old Canaanite month-names. This Babylonian-influenced Jewish Calendar likewise started each lunar month with the first sighting of the thin crescent, sometimes termed the “horned moon,” of the new moon at sunset, but as witnessed from Jerusalem instead of Babylon.[/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]"[/COLOR]

This description is representative of the majority of academics involved in this type of research. We need to eat the meat and spit out the bones...

The dates from Fotheringham appears to agree with the dates I work with, below I have listed the full moon dates from "timeanddate.com" which is not the most accurate, but allows for a quick test for the calendar. The full moon must fall on the 14th.

It might be worth it to include the full moon dates to the work done by Charles F. Murphey[ATTACH=full]313577[/ATTACH]

Shalom

 

[Yahudim]

The dates from Fotheringham appears to agree with the dates I work with, below I have listed the full moon dates from "timeanddate.com" which is not the most accurate, but allows for a quick test for the calendar. The full moon must fall on the 14th.

It might be worth it to include the full moon dates to the work done by Charles F. Murphey[ATTACH=full]313577[/ATTACH]

Shalom

In addition to what I've written in posts #34 and #35 in this thread I thought it would be helpful to give a little quick guide on how to navigate and make sense of the tables I've shared in the aforementioned posts. Below I've copy and pasted one of my posts from another thread:

We know the date for Yeshua's birth is wrong according to he Julian Calendar why? Because it wasn't the the one given to Adam and later to Moses. Therefore when you consider that the birth of Yeshua occured 5,470 Years from creation than this would bring you to the 4th Priestly Cycle which has the course of Abijah beginning on the 7th Day of the 6th Month (August-September), and it is in this month that Elizabeth conceived John; 6 Months later bring you to the end of the year and the time which Mary conceives Yeshua and visits her cousin Elizabeth:
View attachment 313567

From here you count the rest of the months and you'll see John was born sometime in the 5th Priestly Cycle in the 3rd Month (May-June); and 6 Months later Yeshua would be born somewhere in the 9th Month of that Year which would be November-December:
View attachment 313568

Other than that to understand how I figured this out I created a giant spreadsheet which shows you the Shemitah Week and how the 50 Year Jubilee Cycle fits within it:

1st Shemitah Year = 1st Priestly Cycle
2nd Shemitah Year = 2nd Priestly Cycle
3rd Shemitah Year = 3rd Priestly Cycle
4th Shemitah Year = 4th Priestly Cycle
5th Shemitah Year = 5th Priestly Cycle
6th Shemitah Year = 6th Preistly Cycle

The end result is that...

1. Year 50 = 2nd Priestly Cycle
2. Year 100 = 4th Priestly Cycle
3. Year 150 = 6th Priestly Cycle
4. Year 200 = 2nd Preistly Cycle
5. Year 250 = 4th Priestly Cycle
6. Year 300 = 6th Priestly Cycle
7. Year 350 = 2nd Priestly Cycle

Now it is clear to see that 1st Shemitah Year = 1st Priestly Cycle occurs every 151 and 301 Years right after the 6th Priestly Cycle.

This Jubile Spreadsheet will help you visualize what I've cleared written above.

I want to thank you both for your contributions. I spent a considerable amount of time in conversation with Charles Murphy discussing various calendars and scenarios last night and their potential relevance. I will pass this information along and reply later as I have a full day ahead.

 

[Humble Penny]

I want to thank you both for your contributions. I spent a considerable amount of time in conversation with Charles Murphy discussing various calendars and scenarios last night and their potential relevance. I will pass this information along and reply later as I have a full day ahead.

And this is why I enjoy speaking with you and brother Gedge: I always have better discussions with my elders than I do with my peers...then again it shouldn't be a surprise as the elders are always far advanced in years and have seen far down the road.

 

[Filippus]

I want to thank you both for your contributions. I spent a considerable amount of time in conversation with Charles Murphy discussing various calendars and scenarios last night and their potential relevance. I will pass this information along and reply later as I have a full day ahead.

Evidence suggest at the time of Messiah they used the 8 year cycle, with observation.

Have you considered the 8 year cycle?

Below I included a link that explains the synchronization of the Lunar cycle to the solar cycle every 8 years.

Shalom