If heaven isn't a real physical place, WHAT is it then??
That leads me to think then that it's something like Hinduism; like heaven is a state of mind.
If all our knowledge about heaven is metaphorical, and heaven is not a physical place, WHAT is it? :confused
We can't know.
Thats the beauty of it.
We can only understand what limited amount of it has been related to us through metaphore, analogy, and human concept.
It isn't a physical place, we know that because I have demonstrated thus, and it wouldn't make sense if it was.
It is not localized.
Because spirit is not localized.
It is most certainly not a state of mind.
Because then it wouldn't exist without us.
And it wouldn't be seperate from God.
It is a state of existance.
Like now we exist in a body. That is our state.
Heaven will be our "state" our non-localized residence.
There will be no limits or bounds in it.
But I would go further and say, it isn't a place as such, it is in the sense that it is a seperate existing thing, but isn't because a place has measurments.
Heaven is measurless.
My idea is this: God's manifest presence in the spirit is heaven. Heaven is existing with relational residence in God's presence.
What do you think?
Our spirits will be kept with him.
With direct spiritual co-habitation.
How that works, what it would be like, I have no idea.
I was thinking of the verse the other night when I was here but never got around to quoting it.
I however agree with Atlantians on God not having a physical body in heaven much less a human body. I believe when God is talking about his hand, back, and face He is useing metaphors. For what these metephors stand for I don't exactly know and it would be foolish of me at this point to speculate.
Well, why would God tell us things about Him if He knew we could never even grasp it.
Why would He?
So thus what does the face, hands, and back of God mean?
We see peoples faces, we recognize them, who they are. We relate to them that way. Thus, why would God say 'His' face?
Maybe He is telling us that we can't relate to Him.
We can't know Him. We can't recognize Him fully.
His hands would resprosent His action, His authority.
The back would represent a part of His glory.
The back is turned when one is leaving, or trying to hide I suppose. Or when one is showing disaproval or disrespect.
So what is God saying by this?
That we can only see a part of His glory. He must hide infinity from us because we can't handle it.
Now that is as wise as statement as I have seen in this thread.
Still, it's interesting to talk about and debate. I don't always come across such an interesting topic of discussion as this, and I always love a challenge.
Yes, audio. That was very wise. Far wiser and more pithy and concise than anything I have said.
I just couldn't let this one pass.
God does have a body. That Body is known as Jesus. He was The Word made flesh. He died and rose again, in a body. He ascended on high, still in His body. Every story I have heard of someone who says they have been to heaven and back talks about Jesus in a body, if he was encountered there. (I can't think of a better word than story, but in using that word I am not in the least assuming that these stories are made up.) And He ever lives to make intercession for us as He sits by the Father's right hand.
Paul
Yeah, but Jesus didn't have a body before he came to earth.
A body is not Jesus' natural state in temporal existence.
Heck, temporal existence is not his natural state, and he doesn't really exist thusly.
I'm not sure if Atlantians meant to imply this or not, but spirit does not equal infinity, or omnipresense. God alone is infinite, and omnipresent. Angels are spirit, yet they have specific location, they are not everywhere. Jesus has a physical body, yet he is omnipresent.
you and I have spirits, but we are not omnipresent, our spirit does have real, specific, location.
The rules of the spiritual realm are different than the rules of the physical, and we don't know what they are for the most part. However, it does strongly appear in scripture that the physical is a reflection of the spiritual.
God is a spirit, and as such does not have a body (meaning the Father, not the Son who does have a body). So God does not have physical arms and legs etc.. but who (with the actual ability to know) has ever said that spirits don't have appearence? that they don't have spiritual arms and legs which "look" like what we know as physical arms and legs?
The idea that spirit means without form, is not presented in the bible, it is one of the many additions that we have made over the years.
We were created in the image and likeness of God.. Among the many things that means, is the undeniable fact that the language clearly implies that we look like God. This does not mean that God has a physical body, it does mean that even as a spirit, He has form, and we resemble it.
Uh, well hmm.
I will address the paragraphs in order:
Spirit is infinite in the sense that it has no particul measure.
Angels don't exist at all places at once. They are not aware of all things at once.
I would explain it thusly:
Angels exist anywhere, but are only present and aware of somewhere.
God exists anywhere and in a sense everywhere and is present, manidest, and aware of everywhere.
If our spirits have specific location, where is it?
The idea that spirit is without form is present in the sense of implication.
God indeed is infinite. Infinity is formless. If it has form, it isn't infinite.
God has no form obvioously because form would imply structure. Spirit is not physical, how can it have such structure. It produces no light when not manifest, no heat, no kinetic energy. Then if by all definition it has no form, how can it then have form?
We know God exists everywhere, or at least is aware of everywhere and instantly manifestable anywhere, and we know angels are in a sense only able of percieving specific things at once, or being manifested at one place at once, thus we know that when they are not intentionally revealing themselves, they are still "there" but without form. Without anything we would escribe to 'form'.
So the term doesn't apply. It is a misnomer, a contradiction of terms.
As for being created in the image of God,
our spirits were.
But image is more than appearance. In fact it can imply non-appearance, but likeness.
We have similar fealings, and can chose right from wrong.
Like God.
We are in His likeness.
I think your basing alot of your reasoning on assumptions about "spirit" that we really don't know, and maybe don't have all that sound of a basis for.
For example, Jesus has a physical body, and yet is no more limited that the Father, who does not.
I, personally, am of the opinion that most of the instances of God interacting with the Hebrews in the OT was the Son, not the Father. Jesus said no man has ever seen God (the Father).. yet it is evident in the OT that God appeared to a few people, thus I reason it must have been the Son who appeared and not the Father.
Also, there are instances in the OT where it seems the Son took on visible form appearing as a man, such as the instance when the three men visited Abraham. Possibly Melchizedek.
further, it is established in other instances such as the one I mentioned about Elisha and his servant, that spirits can be seen, without them taking physical form. Elisha's servant saw the angels, but they were not in physical form, they were still spirits and 'incorporeal'
Yes but they are still manifest.
Jesus is God. No one has seen God. No one has seen Jesus. Only the physical incarnation thereof.
No one saw the father in the OT, but they did see personal manifestations of Him.
