You seem to think that if God doesn't offer salvation to someone that He's not just. No, God is NOT obligated to save ANYONE! ALL are culpable for their sin, and deserve lake of fire judgment, even you.
Lake of fire judgment is not ANYONE'S choice. Everyone wants either paradise or non-existence. Therefore your idea that people choose damnation is a fallacy.
I'm saying that God is choosing Damnation, not people.
How can an unborn child that dies be culpable of sin when they have no ability to conduct sin?
For God to punish the innocent is unrighteous. Unless you have an explanation for why even those who have not conducted any sinful act are guilty.
You took my statements out of context and put them together in a derogatory manner. I suspect you do the same for verses of scripture you don't like.That's what you have appeared to have said. So God is patiently enduring, with His hands extended to the Israelites
"Since He knows it will never happen, He is waiting for them to realize" "Yet we know that won't happen" "so God must act in order for a person to realize".
So God is patiently waiting for His own action.
"A person repents only after God has given them the wisdom" "otherwise it doesn't happen".
So God is patiently enduring all day long, with His hands extended to the Israelites, as if God is anticipating receiving something. Yet God knows it will never happen without Him taking the first step.
Meaning that God is essentially waiting for Himself.
You're kicking a dead horse, since you ask a question and make statements that have been answered long ago.I'm saying that God is choosing Damnation, not people.
How can an unborn child that dies be culpable of sin when they have no ability to conduct sin?
For God to punish the innocent is unrighteous. Unless you have an explanation for why even those who have not conducted any sinful act are guilty.
You're kicking a dead horse, since you ask a question and make statements that have been answered long ago.
You're obviously projecting something on me that isn't true, just because you heard it from someone else. I clearly stated that I believe dead babies are saved, but you seem to have forgotten, or you didn't read my post on that. I also clearly stated my reasoning from scripture on the matter. Here is a link I think has a reasonable solution, even though it's debated because it's in the realm of speculation:Answered in this thread?
My impression, based on what I've read in this thread, is that God sends miscarriaged babies to hell because they are under the sin of Adam. And I'm not making this up. If you would like to set the record straight for Calvinism, please do.
I wanted to add another consideration:
Jesus heals the cripple.
Mathew chapter 9.
Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 9 - Contemporary English Version
"When Jesus saw how much faith they had, he said to the crippled man, “My friend, don’t worry! Your sins are forgiven.” Mathew 9:2
Jesus saved this man's soul right there on the spot. When Jesus saw, then Jesus saved. Just as Jesus healed the paralyzed right there on the spot, so too did He save. The salvation of these figures in scripture has wasn't pre destined.
I'm getting the impression that you have no idea what the word means or how God plays it out in our lives.Matthew 15:29, Jesus heals the many. But what would it mean if of the many, only an elect few were exempt from eternal hellfire? Did Jesus selectively only heal those who predestined to save? No. People called upon His name, had faith in Him, and then He saved.
And those who follow Him are the elect.Jesus often used the line "follow me".
The one whom He spoke to didn't do it, so he wasn't elect. And to accommodate man's ignorance and faulty reasoning, He offered a reason: because of his riches. Can you see that one not born again is enslaved to sin?“If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” Mathew 19:21
He said these things to the crowd, and yet only a few obeyed Him. This is proof that few are predestined.Jesus didn't say, only some of you follow me because only some of you are of my elected.
“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Mathew 16:24
A complete misunderstanding of election.We never hear about someone choosing to give up their riches and possessions, choosing to follow Jesus, and then Jesus saying "sorry, you didn't make the cut and will be punished".
Again, a complete misunderstanding of election. The few who are elect is defined in 1 John 5:1: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Missionaries are still saying that on average, 4% of people in the world are being saved. That's the few."Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
It isn't "10% of whoever believes in Him shall have eternal life" nor is it "some of whoever believes in Him shall have eternal damnation".
When Jesus says "follow me", he's not picking 1 or 2 people out of the crowd and ignoring the rest.
Yet more misunderstanding. We all have a role to play. We don't cause election, but we participate in God's eternal plan. If He calls you to it, then if you don't do it, He'll call someone else. We respond to God, not the reverse."My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner (which a chosen/free willed action, a verb, to turn) from the error of his way will save his soul from death" James 5:19.
Jesus didn't say "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will have no role in his salvation because it's already predestined".
People choose and act and do God's will as a result of God working in them. No, I disagree that people cause God's selection for salvation, which is what you imply here. Certainly we are playing a role, but in response to what God is doing. Jesus passed up many people in His ministry. He was looking for faith in people, since He said "I do what I see My Father doing."Jesus doesn't say "let him know that when I turn a sinner". No. People are choosing and acting and doing things that play a role in God's selection for salvation. Which ultimately boils down to a free will to "follow Him".
I think you need to do some diligent study in the idea of God's providential involvement in the world. It could help you to understand election, which you obviously don't. I recommend this website to help on that matter: Monergism |One could also wonder, if a man was already predestined to be saved, why Jesus would even go out of His way to discuss the value of others choosing to take action to turn people away from sin. Even though such a choice would allegedly have no bearing on whether or not they themselves would be saved. "Save their soul, but such an act and obedience will not actually be taken into account with respect to your own salvation".
You could go on and on with the same false idea.So this person who puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ then chooses and acts to turn another person away from sin. Then upon judgement day God simply informs the individual that he wasnt elected and predestined for heaven, but rather was elected for punishment and that's that. The logical issues that come with this philosophy are many.
We could go on and on.
I think you need some serious brushing up on your theology (specifically on Providence), since your ignorance of the subject is really showing up right now. But I suspect you won't, since you haven't so far.The idea of Jesus electing those who will be saved and by default electing those who will be damned, before they are even born and regardless of any choice or action they make in life, runs utterly contrary to the character of Jesus. And it's written all over scripture. The idea that only an elect "remnant" or few are saved and the majority are otherwise elected for hellfire almost sounds like "partial salvation" where even those who put faith in Christ, in some instances are punished in hell because they weren't pre selected.
Maybe in some instances there is predestination, but this couldn't be a rule that always applies.
Since He knows it will never happen, He is waiting for them to realize that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, is futile. Yet we know that won't happen to an unregenerate person, so God must act in order for a person to realize that truth. It's a spiritual matter, and requires a spiritual solution.
God is the one who enacts spiritual rebirth on individuals.
A person repents only after God has given them the wisdom from above to know how, and what from, to repent. Otherwise, it doesn't happen, according to Rom. 3:10-18.
God doesn't wait for Himself. He acts on individuals at whatever time He desires, according to how He has prepared those individuals (Rom. 9:23).
The waiting is the time of preparation for the elect, as well as the time of culpability for the vessels of destruction (Rom. 9:22).
I have to plead ignorance on Romans 9, the scripture most cited by Calvinists to support their doctrine of unconditional election, because I didn't start reading the Book of Jeremiah until a few days ago.
When Paul uses the potter and clay analogy in Romans 9, it's unthinkable that Paul, as the Pharisee of Pharisees, didn't have Jeremiah 18 in mind:
As one can see, the potter makes Israel a vessel fit for destruction due to its free-willed choice to reject God. Otherwise, Jeremiah 18:12 doesn't make any logical sense, "That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart."
Calvinists, by insisting that humans have no free will whatsoever to obey God, not even to accept God's free offer of salvation by faith alone through grace alone, are taking the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18:12.
The main disagreement that Arminians and Molinists have with Calvinism is whether or not God's grace is irresistible. While Calvinists insist that God's enabling grace is given only to the elect, without the possibility of rejecting it, Molinists and Arminians believe that God's enabling grace to believe the Gospel is given to all people equally, with the possibility of rejecting it. (John 12:32, John 15:26, John 16:8-11)
The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.
2 Timothy 2:20-21 provides another potter/clay analogy which directly cuts against the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9:
2 Timothy 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.
As one can see, in order to be a vessel for special purposes, you must cleanse yourself by accepting God's free offer of grace. It's not, according to 2 Timothy 2:20-21, due to unconditional election.
My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.
Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.
1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
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