Jeremiah 14 Question

[feo]

I read this quite awhile ago. I've tried to figure it out; but yet have not. And it's been really bothering me.

[bible]Jeremiah 14:11-12[/bible]

I understand why Jeremiah's freaking out. And I understand why God was upset at the time. But what bothers me, is the fact that God does not want the people to be prayed for.

In my opinion, this does not fit in with God's character, it seems very out of place. Anyone offer some insight, explanation, or opinions regarding this?

 

[tqpix]

My guess is that the people in question did something wrong and if you pray for them you are a partaker in their deeds; kind of similar to this passage:

[bible]2 John 1:9-11[/bible]

 

[karla]

I think that what is being said is that just because they are fasting or having burnt offerings does not mean that God will comply. He is saying that a disobedient world would not only be ignored by Him, but destroyed. We are to be totally obedient to God and He deserves nothing less. True repentance is what God desires and that is the only way back to Him. Repentences comes from the individual and cannot be obtained by anyone else for us.

 

[RVincent]

A look at the Structure of those verses, as well as a comparison with the events leading up to the Day of the Lord might shed some light. Remember that there is no punctuation, or division into verses in the MSS.

I will highlight, in red, items "C" for the comparison.

Jeremiah 14:7 - 15:24 INTERCESSION
(Extended Alternation)​

A. 14:7-9. Deprecation. Jeremiah.

B. 14:10-12. Rejection. Yahoveh.

C. 14:13-18. Prophets. (False)​

A. 14:19-22. Deprecation. Jeremiah.

B. 15:1-9. Rejection. Yahoveh.

C. 15:10-21. Prophets. (True)​

Concerning the true prophets, only a remnant, those who return to Yahoveh...that is, in truth...shall save themselves alive.

(2 Th 2:10-12) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. {11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: {12} That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

By Hebrew idiom, God does what a person allows to be done. If people choose to listen to the false prophets, then their prayers, their hymns, their tithes, their ice-cream socials, and all there works are emptiness.

God doesn't listen to or accept them, because they are listening to or accepting lies in His Name.

(Mat 7:22-23) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? {23} And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
​

As a side note, here's a reference in Jeremiah and Revelation:

(Jer 15:2) And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.

(Rev 13:10) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.​

These are Hebrew idioms for destiny.

 

[daveleau]

God was sick of Israel's consistent and persistent worshipping of idols. God foretells of Israel's destruction.

Matthew Henry Concise:
The Lord calls the Jews “this people,” not “his people.” They had forsaken his service, therefore he would punish them according to their sins. He forbade Jeremiah to plead for them. The false prophets were the most criminal. The Lord pronounces condemnation on them; but as the people loved to have it so, they were not to escape judgments. False teachers encourage men to expect peace and salvation, without repentance, faith, conversion, and holiness of life. But those who believe a lie must not plead if for an excuse. They shall feel what they say they will not fear.

 

[feo]

My guess is that the people in question did something wrong and if you pray for them you are a partaker in their deeds...

hehe your guess is as good as mine. I read your reference, but do not see the connection that "praying for someone" IS partaking in their deeds. I see a large difference between the two.

As an unrelated question, would someone clarify what 2 JOHN 10. I have always been tempted to invite a homeless guy, who does not have Christ- into my home for awhile.

This is unbiblical?

I think that what is being said is that just because they are fasting or having burnt offerings does not mean that God will comply. He is saying that a disobedient world would not only be ignored by Him, but destroyed. We are to be totally obedient to God and He deserves nothing less. True repentance is what God desires and that is the only way back to Him. Repentences comes from the individual and cannot be obtained by anyone else for us.

Correct, God does not HAVE to comply. The disobedient will be destroyed. And I am pretty sure Jeremiah understands that he cannot repent for them. That part I understand. What I don't understand, is why would God NOT want the unsaved to be prayed for.

A look at the Structure of those verses, as well as a comparison with the events leading up to the Day of the Lord might shed some light. Remember that there is no punctuation, or division into verses in the MSS.

What you say is very interesting. I understand why God does not accept the people. I understand why God is not listening to them: and I don't even blame God!!

But I don't think I'm making my question clear enough. I am confused at the relationship between God and Jeremiah; not between God and the others. If I completely missed your point, please tell me Its not on purpose.

God was sick of Israel's consistent and persistent worshipping of idols. God foretells of Israel's destruction.

Yupz. God has every right to be sick of Israels lack of obedience. I'm sure God is angry at us even today... that we put so many things above God. But would God not want me to pray for those who do?

 

[johnd]

I would say simply that there is a time when for the sake of drawing out their repentance God turned his back on his people (in the Old Covenant). In the New Covenant he says he will never leave or forsake his people, and even though we be faithless he will remain faithful for he cannot deny himself.

Another way to look at it is this: Yes we are to pray for Israel. But we are not to pray for their salvation in any way other than the cross of Christ. Hope that came out right.

 

[feo]

I would say simply that there is a time when for the sake of drawing out their repentance God turned his back on his people (in the Old Covenant). In the New Covenant he says he will never leave or forsake his people, and even though we be faithless he will remain faithful for he cannot deny himself.

Another way to look at it is this: Yes we are to pray for Israel. But we are not to pray for their salvation in any way other than the cross of Christ. Hope that came out right.

I agree; as far as praying for someone elses salvation- the cross of Christ is essential. The only problem I see, is that was not there at the time. If God turned his back at that time, there would be a 400 year gap WITHOUT God. And that does not... sound right to me

 

[KleinerApfel]

I think that God knew that Jeremiah's praying for them would be fruitless at that time.

It is God who calls us to pray, even though He "knows the end from the begining."

So if we see that when God knows the people will not respond to Him even when prayed for, we can see the other side of the same coin, the positive side:
When we feel the Spirit call us to pray for a person or situation, we can be assured that is because he knows it will be of benefit. That's good to know.

Blessings, susana

 

[feo]

I think that God knew that Jeremiah's praying for them would be fruitless at that time.

It is God who calls us to pray, even though He "knows the end from the begining."

It is God who calls us to pray, and God calls me to pray over the people who do not know Him (much like those who were around Jeremiah whom he prayed for)

It seems as if our prayers, do not change God's mind. Which was why God did not want us to pray for the lost, in that section. If thats true, why do we bother praying now for the lost?

How is this connected to God's character in other parts of the bible?

 

[KleinerApfel]

It is God who calls us to pray, and God calls me to pray over the people who do not know Him (much like those who were around Jeremiah whom he prayed for)

It seems as if our prayers, do not change God's mind. Which was why God did not want us to pray for the lost, in that section. If thats true, why do we bother praying now for the lost?

How is this connected to God's character in other parts of the bible?

I agree we need to pray for the lost.
If you feel you need to pray for specific people, then that is because God calling you to do that.

As for prayer changing God's mind, I don't understand how prayer works, but God knows it's an important part of the equation.

For instance; when I was saved, it was partly because people were praying for me.
You can't say; "but what if they hadn't?"
There are no "ifs" in God's kingdom; God already knew who He would ask to pray for me, and that they would obey, and what the result would be for me!


God bless, Susana

 

[StevenL]

1 John 5
16If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

 

[feo]

Doesnt all sin lead to death?

 

[quadding]

God is SOMEWHAT like us, He has a point to where He will say (I have had it). God will deal with people about sin and getting right with Him but there is a point that He will say (have what u want I am out of here) and when He does this it is refered to as grieving God's Spirit away and when this happens god will never return to u again. ur chances of ever getting right with Him r gone forever. I know most do not believe this but it is true. The bible say that in the last days the love of many (most) will wax cold. God is all the love there is in the world and these people have sinned to the point that God's Spirit has left them forever.

 

[feo]

...and when He does this it is refered to as grieving God's Spirit away and when this happens god will never return to u again. ur chances of ever getting right with Him r gone forever.

Isnt the only sin God does not forgive: the one we do not repent?

Doesnt God say through Jesus that He will never leave us?

 

[In Christ Forever]

11 Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good. 12 When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.

I understand why Jeremiah's freaking out. And I understand why God was upset at the time. But what bothers me, is the fact that God does not want the people to be prayed for.

In my opinion, this does not fit in with God's character, it seems very out of place. Anyone offer some insight, explanation, or opinions regarding this?

It is explained better in Malachi I think and gives the reason. The prophecies are all against the House of Judah, more specifically, the Levitical Priesthood in Jerusalem. It appears they were to be His great sacrifice, and as horrible as that sounds, it was how God was going to glorify Himself. They are/were already preordained for destruction, no reprentance.
This happened in the first century with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem I think, I doubt if it would apply to the jewstoday as there are no Levite priests left I don't think.

Malachi 2:1 "And now, O priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If you will not hear, And if you will not take [it] to heart, To give glory to My name," Says the LORD of hosts, "I will send a curse upon you, And I will curse your blessings. Yes, I have cursed them already, Because you do not take [it] to heart. 3 "Behold, I will rebuke your descendants And spread refuse on your faces, The refuse of your solemn feasts; And [one] will take you away with it. 4 Then you shall know that I have sent this commandment to you, That My covenant with Levi may continue," Says the LORD of hosts. 5 "My covenant was with him, [one] of life and peace, And I gave them to him [that he might] fear [Me;] So he feared Me And was reverent before My name. 6 The law of truth was in his mouth, And injustice was not found on his lips. He walked with Me in peace and equity, And turned many away from iniquity. 7 "For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, And [people] should seek the law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But you have departed from the way; You have caused many to stumble at the law. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi," Says the LORD of hosts. 9 "Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base Before all the people, Because you have not kept My ways But have shown partiality in the law."

 

[feo]

They are/were already preordained for destruction, no reprentance.

Doesnt that take away the whole "free will" thing? If they have a choice; how can it NOT be possible for repentance?

 

[In Christ Forever]

Doesnt that take away the whole "free will" thing? If they have a choice; how can it NOT be possible for repentance?

They didn't ask for repentance, they gave worship to the world instead of to God.
The only reason I can believe in God and the bible is I feel most of what He prophecied came to past in the first century. He did Glorify Himself, we just have to find out if that already happend or it is in the future.
The wraths came on a people that were chosen by Him, and is used as an example for us to give obedience to God and live as His Son taught us. If we live in the spirit, let us walk in the spirit. As the bible says, fear God not man

Malachi 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

ezekiel 39: 5 "You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken," says the Lord GOD. 6 "And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I [am] the LORD. 7 "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not [let them] profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that [I am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel. 8 "Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord GOD. "This [is] the day of which I have spoken. 12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified," says the Lord GOD.

reve 2:21 "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 "I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

 

[feo]

They didn't ask for repentance, they gave worship to the world instead of to God.

Just because someone did not ask for repentance; does not mean it would have NOT been possible, IF they would've repented.

So far: the only reason I have heard... on the why's God would tell us to not pray for 'sinners', is because "they are sinning" or "beyond hope" ? That can be applied today... to just about everyone