Jehovah? Yahweh? Allah??? Which is it?!

[mo.mentum]

I've been having some interesting questions as to the origins of the name Allah for God in Arabic. And also was interested in the name YHWH which many tout as the true name of God. So here is MY OPINION on the matter..


Allah (translation "The God") is His Supreme Attribute of being the Only One God, it also doubles as a proper name for Arab speakers, be they Christian/Jewish/Muslim. All Arab speakers of all religions address God as Allah. Are you saying that Catholic or Orthodox Christians who speak arabic are in fact referring to a different deity? I think not. Arabic Bible translations also contain the name Allah. In fact ALL Bibles contain the name of Allah in its Semetic form. I will show you..


In Jewish Scriptures, God is called by many names in Hebrew. The most famous of these is Yahweh. Deutronomy6:5 "Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh". This name eventually fell into disuse. The same verse above is quoted in the New Testament, but without the name. Mark12:29 "Listen, Israel: the Lord our God is the one, only Lord". The Qur'an also insists that there is only one God. Qur'an2:21 "O Mankind! Worship your Lord, who has created you and those before you". (right away we see that this book addresses all mankind, not just Israel)

The name Jehovah occurs a few times in the KJV Bible. But according to Harper's Bible Dictionnary, this name is "the result of the translators' ignorance of the Hebrew language and customs" (1985, p1036) The book of World Religions from Ancient History says "The name Jehovah is a medieval misreading and does not occur in the Hebrew Bible" (p.386)

The most famous name for God in the Old Testament is called the "Sacred Tetragrammaton". We don't know HOW to pronounce this name YHWH, since it's all consonants, no vowels. The word Jehovah is a mistaken pronunciation of this word. It arose when a Christian scholar, Petrus Galatinus (~1520AD) combined the consonants YHWH with vowels belonging to the word Adonai. (YaHoWaH, it was written as Jahowah because in latin J is pronounced like Y). Jahowah was further anglicized as Jehovah.

So is Jehovah His name? "The word Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p20, published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

So what is His name?? "Strictly speaking, Yahweh is the only 'name' of God" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p25). But why do they still use Jehovah?? "Because it has a familiarity that Yahweh does not have." (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p9)...But doesn't God tell us not to misuse His name? (Deuronomy 5:11)

Ok so back to Yahweh! Can we conclude that this is name of God? NO! 3 reasons:

1- Although it is the best rendering of YHWH, no one can say for sure that this is the correct rendering. We don't know how to pronounce it!

2- The word Yahweh is a verb, yet we expect the name of God to be a noun. The New Jerusalem Bible explains: "It is part of the Hebrew verb 'to be' in an archaic form. Some see it as a causitive form of the verb: 'he causes to be', 'brings into existence'. But it is much more probably a form of the present indicative meaning 'He Is'" (p.85 notes on Exodus3:14) So if you say that God's name is Yahweh, you are in effect saying that God's name is "he is", not much sense there.

3- the record of how this name came to be revealed by God betrays a confusion over the name of God, as if the name which God revealed is missing from the text and has to now be manufactured by humans. This name is derived from the statement God made to Moses in Exodus3:14. When Moses asked God for His name, God replied in Hebrew "ehyeh esher ehyeh", or the famous "I am what I am". Obvious intention of Exodux3:14 was to reveal God's name, but the response Moses got would mean that God does not wish to reveal His name. So the task fell on humans to find a name, or anything that can be rendered into a possible name for God. Best they could do with what hey had was to convert "I am" to "He is" (Yahweh in Hebrew). So this name has come about through human effort, not expressly revealed by God.

Ack! So what's going on here? Let's go back to Moses. The episode in Exodus3:14 is described in two other passages. In one of these, when Moses asked God for His name: "I am the Lord: and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them" Exodus6:2-3 KJV

Errr I see a serious problem here. The book of Genesis shows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God by many names, including the name Jehovah (or more correctly Yahweh). The Hebrew text show that men started calling upon the name of Jehovah after the birth of Enosh, grandson of Adam (Genesis4:26). This contradicts Exodus6:3 which says that the name Jehovah was not previously known.

Genesis 4:26 also contradicts another verse in the same chapter! This verse shows that the name Jehovah started being used after the birth of Adam's grandson, but the beginning of the same chapter shows that the name was used long before that! When Eve gave birth to her first child: "I have begotten a man with the help of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:1-2 American Standard Version)

Also, God had declared His name as Jehovah (or Yahweh) to Abraham in Genesis 8:7, which he in return confirmed in 8:8. So how could God later say in Exodus6:3 that Abraham did not know His name? Isaac also knew the name in 26:22, 27:7, etc...

So which is right? Does this mean that we lost all hope of knowing God's name? No! In the Bible, God promised to raise up a prophet who will speak the words of God in God's name (Deutronomy18:19). That prophet has come. He recited the words of God beginning with the name of God. The scripture he received from God begins as follows: "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds" Q1:1.

In the Qur'an, we read that God said to Moses: "I am indeed Allah. There is no god except Me. So serve Me and establish worship for my rememberance"Q20:14, (see also 28:30) This is in contrast to Exodus where God said "I am what I am", here He says "I am Allah". When you introduce yourself to someone, you say "I am Bob", or "I am Jennie", and not "I am whoever I am".

So is this name Allah new? A name revealed to Moses? No, since many prophets before him knew of it. The name Allah is in several places in the Bible in its Semetic form and clearly written as Allah in the Arabic translations. The New Encyclopedia Britannica explains: "The name's origin can be traced to the earliest Semetic writings in which the word for God was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh. Allah is the standard Arabic word for 'God' and is used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims" (1990, vol1, p276)

El is a name frequently used for God in the Bible. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus pronounced this name in one of the last statements he uttered (Mark15:24, Matthew27:46)

Houstan Smith, scholar of comparative religion remarks that the Hebrew name Eloah and the Arabic name Allah "sound much alike" (World's Religions, 1991, p222)

So where does YHWH come from? The Israelites had split up between Ephraim in the North and Judah in the South. The southerners and northerners eack kept their own record of Israelite history and religion. In the record of the notherners, the name of God is Eloah plus the 'im' suffix. In the record of southerners, the name of God is YHWH. These were combined to form the first five book sof the Bible. This explains why the creation is rerlated twice, the flood twice, etc.... in the first record of Creation, Genesis1:1 you will notice that the name of God is Eloah + "im". In Genesis2:4, another creation account, this time God is called YHWH. This name is of obscure origin and must be regarded as the contribution of the Southerners, it is therefore NOT a God revealed name. No wonder then that none of the Gospels contain it! The Gospels contain instead Eloah which is used some 2500 times.

The related Arabic name Allah is used more than 2500 times in the Qur'an.

The english word God (which many pride on it being rooted in the word 'good') is subject to derivations, but not so the Arabic word Allah. The english word 'God' can be modified to form 'Gods', 'Goddess', 'Godling' etc etc In the Arabic language, the name Allah is not subject to derivations. Another word in Arabic is "Ilah" which simply means God. This may refer to either the True God, or to any false god. The name Allah, however refers only to the One True God.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tariki]

"Thou art formless. Your only form is our knowledge of you" (Vedas)

 

[The Thadman]

I've been having some interesting questions as to the origins of the name Allah for God in Arabic. And also was interested in the name YHWH which many tout as the true name of God. So here is MY OPINION on the matter..

Ok, be prepared to debate it

Allah (translation "The God") is His Supreme Attribute of being the Only One God, it also doubles as a proper name for Arab speakers, be they Christian/Jewish/Muslim. All Arab speakers of all religions address God as Allah. Are you saying that Catholic or Orthodox Christians who speak arabic are in fact referring to a different deity? I think not. Arabic Bible translations also contain the name Allah. In fact ALL Bibles contain the name of Allah in its Semetic form. I will show you..

Allah in modern Arabic has become the same thing as "God". Unfortunately, due to the definite article, you'll see many times in the OT where Eloah and Elohim are used with the definite article Ha to denote OTHER gods. Therefore, litterally, the cognate of "Allah" is "haEloah." How do Arabic Bibles make this distinction between Elohim and haEloah?

In Jewish Scriptures, God is called by many names in Hebrew. The most famous of these is Yahweh. Deutronomy6:5 "Listen, Israel: Yahweh our God is the one, the only Yahweh". This name eventually fell into disuse. The same verse above is quoted in the New Testament, but without the name. Mark12:29 "Listen, Israel: the Lord our God is the one, only Lord". The Qur'an also insists that there is only one God. Qur'an2:21 "O Mankind! Worship your Lord, who has created you and those before you". (right away we see that this book addresses all mankind, not just Israel)

But none of those "many names" are his personal name. "I am YHWH, that is name" is rather blatant.

The name Jehovah occurs a few times in the KJV Bible. But according to Harper's Bible Dictionnary, this name is "the result of the translators' ignorance of the Hebrew language and customs" (1985, p1036) The book of World Religions from Ancient History says "The name Jehovah is a medieval misreading and does not occur in the Hebrew Bible" (p.386)

True.

The most famous name for God in the Old Testament is called the "Sacred Tetragrammaton". We don't know HOW to pronounce this name YHWH, since it's all consonants, no vowels. The word Jehovah is a mistaken pronunciation of this word. It arose when a Christian scholar, Petrus Galatinus (~1520AD) combined the consonants YHWH with vowels belonging to the word Adonai. (YaHoWaH, it was written as Jahowah because in latin J is pronounced like Y). Jahowah was further anglicized as Jehovah.

So is Jehovah His name? "The word Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p20, published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

So what is His name?? "Strictly speaking, Yahweh is the only 'name' of God" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p25). But why do they still use Jehovah?? "Because it has a familiarity that Yahweh does not have." (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p9)...But doesn't God tell us not to misuse His name? (Deuronomy 5:11)

Just for future reference, quoting the Watchtower society is bad scholarship Read up on their "translation committee" of whose result was the Jehovah's Witness Bible (a monstrosity). They are close to correct on this issue, but on to your next point:

Ok so back to Yahweh! Can we conclude that this is name of God? NO! 3 reasons:

1- Although it is the best rendering of YHWH, no one can say for sure that this is the correct rendering. We don't know how to pronounce it!

That's not true We have the language itself to look at

2- The word Yahweh is a verb, yet we expect the name of God to be a noun. The New Jerusalem Bible explains: "It is part of the Hebrew verb 'to be' in an archaic form. Some see it as a causitive form of the verb: 'he causes to be', 'brings into existence'. But it is much more probably a form of the present indicative meaning 'He Is'" (p.85 notes on Exodus3:14) So if you say that God's name is Yahweh, you are in effect saying that God's name is "he is", not much sense there.

YHWH is the 3rd person singular of the Hebrew Verb, to be in the future ("Imperfect") tense. I have NO idea as to why there is debate over it, except that the LXX (Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew text) decided to muck things up, and it has been a tradition ever since.

Additionally, do you know the entomology of Hebrew names? Many of them contain verbs and reference to the verb to be (Yeshua` = "YHWH saves" or "He will save", etc. ).

3- the record of how this name came to be revealed by God betrays a confusion over the name of God, as if the name which God revealed is missing from the text and has to now be manufactured by humans. This name is derived from the statement God made to Moses in Exodus3:14. When Moses asked God for His name, God replied in Hebrew "ehyeh esher ehyeh", or the famous "I am what I am". Obvious intention of Exodux3:14 was to reveal God's name, but the response Moses got would mean that God does not wish to reveal His name. So the task fell on humans to find a name, or anything that can be rendered into a possible name for God. Best they could do with what hey had was to convert "I am" to "He is" (Yahweh in Hebrew). So this name has come about through human effort, not expressly revealed by God.

Given what I said above, "Ehyeh" is the 1st person singular. So it is not "I am what which I am" it is "I will be what I will be." Hence, YHWH is "HE WILL BE."

In Hebrew this is pronounced as "YeHWoH" (Yod-Shewa He Vav-Qamets-Hatauf He). In Aramaic, the cognate is "NeHWoA" (Yoodh-Etsatsa He Wau-Zqofo He) (note how the vowels are identical). Most Jewish Tanakhim have YHWH spelled (Yod-Shewa He Vav-Qamets-Hatauf He). What's the problem here?

Ack! So what's going on here? Let's go back to Moses. The episode in Exodus3:14 is described in two other passages. In one of these, when Moses asked God for His name: "I am the Lord: and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them" Exodus6:2-3 KJV

2 God spoke to Moses, and said to him, “I am YHWH; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name is YHWH. I was not understood by them.

Yours is a correct english translation, but an ambiguous english translation. Much like how the Greek word "kai" is translated as "and" in most places, but can be employed like the english word "also." So I could say a "correct" rendering from a Greek source to be "So I and went to them" when what is easier to understand would be "So I also went to them."

More on how this plays into Christian tradition in a bit.

Errr I see a serious problem here. The book of Genesis shows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God by many names, including the name Jehovah (or more correctly Yahweh). The Hebrew text show that men started calling upon the name of Jehovah after the birth of Enosh, grandson of Adam (Genesis4:26). This contradicts Exodus6:3 which says that the name Jehovah was not previously known.

LXX tradition. See below.

Genesis 4:26 also contradicts another verse in the same chapter! This verse shows that the name Jehovah started being used after the birth of Adam's grandson, but the beginning of the same chapter shows that the name was used long before that! When Eve gave birth to her first child: "I have begotten a man with the help of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:1-2 American Standard Version)

Also, God had declared His name as Jehovah (or Yahweh) to Abraham in Genesis 8:7, which he in return confirmed in 8:8. So how could God later say in Exodus6:3 that Abraham did not know His name? Isaac also knew the name in 26:22, 27:7, etc...

So which is right? Does this mean that we lost all hope of knowing God's name? No! In the Bible, God promised to raise up a prophet who will speak the words of God in God's name (Deutronomy18:19). That prophet has come. He recited the words of God beginning with the name of God. The scripture he received from God begins as follows: "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful, Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds" Q1:1.

Obviously, the word translated as "know" was translated in error. This error was due to two things:

1) The translation of the LXX into Greek, which spread as the main version used by the majority of Christians and Jews until modern times.
2) Ambiguous english and incomplete matchup to the Hebrew cognate.

Even now, in translations from the Hebrew, "known" is still used as is "I am who I am." The same reason why there is not a single english translation to date (with the possible exception of 2 or 3) that have not been influenced by the KJV in some way.

In the Qur'an, we read that God said to Moses: "I am indeed Allah. There is no god except Me. So serve Me and establish worship for my rememberance"Q20:14, (see also 28:30) This is in contrast to Exodus where God said "I am what I am", here He says "I am Allah". When you introduce yourself to someone, you say "I am Bob", or "I am Jennie", and not "I am whoever I am".

I WILL BE what I WILL BE. Not I am what I am

So is this name Allah new? A name revealed to Moses? No, since many prophets before him knew of it. The name Allah is in several places in the Bible in its Semetic form and clearly written as Allah in the Arabic translations. The New Encyclopedia Britannica explains: "The name's origin can be traced to the earliest Semetic writings in which the word for God was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh. Allah is the standard Arabic word for 'God' and is used by Arab Christians as well as by Muslims" (1990, vol1, p276)

El is a name frequently used for God in the Bible. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus pronounced this name in one of the last statements he uttered (Mark15:24, Matthew27:46)

Houstan Smith, scholar of comparative religion remarks that the Hebrew name Eloah and the Arabic name Allah "sound much alike" (World's Religions, 1991, p222)

Eloah and Allah, similar yes. But Eloah simply means "Mighty" in Hebrew. It has taken on a new meaning in Arabic. Additionally, I stress, "Al-lah" = "haEloah" in Hebrew, not "Elohim."

So where does YHWH come from? The Israelites had split up between Ephraim in the North and Judah in the South. The southerners and northerners eack kept their own record of Israelite history and religion. In the record of the notherners, the name of God is Eloah plus the 'im' suffix. In the record of southerners, the name of God is YHWH. These were combined to form the first five book sof the Bible. This explains why the creation is rerlated twice, the flood twice, etc.... in the first record of Creation, Genesis1:1 you will notice that the name of God is Eloah + "im". In Genesis2:4, another creation account, this time God is called YHWH. This name is of obscure origin and must be regarded as the contribution of the Southerners, it is therefore NOT a God revealed name. No wonder then that none of the Gospels contain it! The Gospels contain instead Eloah which is used some 2500 times.

First, I'd like to see some sources concerning this "all Elohim / all YHWH" business

Secondly, you'll notice that God does not name himself in Genesis 1:1. It is a narrative account where his TITLE was employed. Does God EVER say in the OT "My name is Elohim"?

Also what's with this + "im" thing? It denotes masculine plural and is rather important in this case.

Finally, the Gospel DOES use, as proper Jewish documents at the time did, a euphamism for YHWH to distinguish Eloah/Aloho. The word in Aramaic is "Mar-Ya" and it litterally means "Lord YHWH." Pick up any Aramaic NT.

The related Arabic name Allah is used more than 2500 times in the Qur'an.

And I have a blue fish in my rubber shoe. Point?

The english word God (which many pride on it being rooted in the word 'good') is subject to derivations, but not so the Arabic word Allah. The english word 'God' can be modified to form 'Gods', 'Goddess', 'Godling' etc etc In the Arabic language, the name Allah is not subject to derivations. Another word in Arabic is "Ilah" which simply means God. This may refer to either the True God, or to any false god. The name Allah, however refers only to the One True God.

Any thoughts?

The same goes for Mar-Ya. It can ONLY be used for God's name, nothing else. Aloho can be used for any old god.

I've outlined my thoughts in this document.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[jonah]

Wow.
Thank you for that educational talk! If my brain was educated in that area I would have wanted to say that too. That was a must read twice!! You answered so much more eloquently than I could have expressed!

 

[Brother John]

The most famous name for God in the Old Testament is called the "Sacred Tetragrammaton". We don't know HOW to pronounce this name YHWH, since it's all consonants, no vowels. The word Jehovah is a mistaken pronunciation of this word. It arose when a Christian scholar, Petrus Galatinus (~1520AD) combined the consonants YHWH with vowels belonging to the word Adonai. (YaHoWaH, it was written as Jahowah because in latin J is pronounced like Y). Jahowah was further anglicized as Jehovah.

So is Jehovah His name? "The word Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p20, published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

That fact is very interesting and always upsets the Jehovah's Witnesses that I debate/discuss with.
sort of rocks their theological boat I guess.

Your Brother
John

 

[bouncer]

My only 'thought' is that too much is being made of the name of God. For starters my muslim friends have always explained to me that 'Allah' is not the name of God, but is simply the arabic word for GOD. In fact I know Arabic Christians who refer to God (the triune Christian God) as 'Allah'. So I have always been given to understand that Allah is not a name, but simply the arabic word for God.

So, to say that God's name is 'Allah' is as ridiculous as saying God's name is 'God'. Well, correct me if I am wrong about the Muslim interpretation of the word 'Allah', and maybe I can ask my muslim friends for confirmation.

If I was Arabic, I would probably refer to God as Allah as well, and I certainly don't have a problem with that. Anyway, when I look at Exodus 3 again, this is what it says:

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . [2] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD , [3] the God of your fathers-the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob-has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

These verses clearly imply that God intended his name to be the Hebrew version of 'I AM'. I also think it is ridiculous to ask God for his 'name' as if he had to be distinguished from a variety of other Gods.

Which is why I think God's reply to Moses, 'I AM who I AM', and his name 'I AM' is the most apt, since it represents a God who is ever present and who requires no name to be identified.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by mo.mentum

Ack! So what's going on here? Let's go back to Moses. The episode in Exodus3:14 is described in two other passages. In one of these, when Moses asked God for His name: "I am the Lord: and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them" Exodus6:2-3 KJV

Errr I see a serious problem here. The book of Genesis shows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God by many names, including the name Jehovah (or more correctly Yahweh). The Hebrew text show that men started calling upon the name of Jehovah after the birth of Enosh, grandson of Adam (Genesis4:26). This contradicts Exodus6:3 which says that the name Jehovah was not previously known.

Genesis 4:26 also contradicts another verse in the same chapter! This verse shows that the name Jehovah started being used after the birth of Adam's grandson, but the beginning of the same chapter shows that the name was used long before that! When Eve gave birth to her first child: "I have begotten a man with the help of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:1-2 American Standard Version)

Also, God had declared His name as Jehovah (or Yahweh) to Abraham in Genesis 8:7, which he in return confirmed in 8:8. So how could God later say in Exodus6:3 that Abraham did not know His name? Isaac also knew the name in 26:22, 27:7, etc...

This should help to clear some of the confusion: I hope?

The Divine Names And Titles
This is a portion taken from Appendix 4 from The Companion Bible.

I. ELOHIM occurs 2,700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation, and gives it its essential meaning as the Creator. It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2Chronicles 18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship). ?Elohim is God the Son, the living "Word" with creature form to create (John 1:1. Colossians 1:15-17. Revelation 3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (John 1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporally assumed. ?Elohim in indicated (as in the Authorized Version) by ordinary small type, "God".

II. JEHOVAH. While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (compare 2Chronicles 18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal, the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Genesis 21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "My God."
Jehovah is indicated (as in Authorized Version) by small capital letters, "LORD"; and by "GOD" When it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah.

IV. EL is essentially the Almighty, though the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occurrence Genesis 14:18-22) and sees all (Genesis 16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Psalms 57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.
El is indicated in this edition by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanu-?el, Beth-?el, etc., where it is translated, as explained in the margin.

V. ELOAH is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deuteronomy 32:15,17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols.
Eloah is rendered "God", but we have indicated it by type thus GOD.

 

[Mephster]

I'm rather curious about JEDP redaction etc. I know it was proffered that the Yahwist was the high priest of David, Nathan. But regardless, the "name" came through oral history for a long time before being written. And if they weren't pronouncing it....... we can only speculate on the name centered around the time of the writings - not the time of the oral traditions. Am I wrong here?

 

[mo.mentum]

Thad. You da man. Very good retort! I have some questions.

Allah in modern Arabic has become the same thing as "God".

Ilah is "god". Allah is "The God", not as "THE God", but as in the "The Only One God", His proper name. "The God" would be "Al-Ilah". But "Allah" is a proper name which does use "Ilah" as a root. Just like any Semetic language, names are composed of base verbs. "Ilaha" is "Divinity". "Allah" is "The Divinity", to be distinguised from any other "Ilah".

Just as my name is "Mohamed", its root verb is "Ha Ma Da", which is "To Praise". Mohamed is "One Who Is Praised". Or another popular name is "Abdul-lah", or "Servant/Slave/Worshipper of Allah"...which comes from "Aa Ba Da", or "To Worship".

Unfortunately, due to the definite article, you'll see many times in the OT where Eloah and Elohim are used with the definite article Ha to denote OTHER gods.Therefore, litterally, the cognate of "Allah" is "haEloah." How do Arabic Bibles make this distinction between Elohim and haEloah?

I didn't know about the "ha" nor have I seen it. Can you refer me to some verses where this is used? Also, what other deities are mentioned in such way?

As for Elohim, the "im" suffix is not also used when addressing God directly, as in "O God", "O Eloh". In Arabic, the suffix "uma" is added to denote such a way of speaking and can be "confused" with a plural form of the world. So when you want to say "O Allah, Grant me peace and wipe my sins away", you would employ "Allahuma".

But i can see where this might be a problem since Elohim is used to refer to "other" brings, not directly to God. I'm still working on that one. I'm highly suspicious tho of those who say this is referring to Angels or other deities that were in some way "equivalent" or "shared the power" of God.

I still can't find "haEloah"!

But none of those "many names" are his personal name. "I am YHWH, that is name" is rather blatant.

I'm not sure what you mean. He never is that obvious in the Bible.

Just for future reference, quoting the Watchtower society is bad scholarship Read up on their "translation committee" of whose result was the Jehovah's Witness Bible (a monstrosity). They are close to correct on this issue

Ouch. That bad huh? Ok scrap that!

That's not true We have the language itself to look at

But we have no vowel markings! In Arabic and Hebrew, the alphabet is solely composed of consonants. In order to put vowels, you add little dots or dashes above and under letters to make the "a" "o" "i" sounds. So we have the consonants YHWH, but not the vowels. Of course the language is there, but not the specific vowels. Unless you're hiding some source from us!

YHWH is the 3rd person singular of the Hebrew Verb, to be in the future ("Imperfect") tense. I have NO idea as to why there is debate over it, except that the LXX (Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew text) decided to muck things up, and it has been a tradition ever since.

Ok. So human intervention #1 into Holy Scripture.

Additionally, do you know the entomology of Hebrew names? Many of them contain verbs and reference to the verb to be (Yeshua` = "YHWH saves" or "He will save", etc. ).

Yep! Same as Arabic. See above. The 99 Names God attributes to Himself in the Qur'an are all formed with root verbs, which are composed of three base letters. The entire language is built this way and makes for an amazing array of vocabulary. Actually, a great majority of names, even usual words, are formed this way in Arabic. The word "Food" derives from the verb "To Eat" (Akel=Food, Ah Ka La=To Eat)

Given what I said above, "Ehyeh" is the 1st person singular. So it is not "I am what which I am" it is "I will be what I will be." Hence, YHWH is "HE WILL BE."

I was only giving an example that it didn't make sense that He would say "I am that I am". But even as a name "He will be" doesn't make much sense, no? It's not an attribute, not an action, just a future event. I know, I'm being touchy on this one. But I hope you can understand why. Why should it be "I will be what I will be" if it is translated as "I am what I am" EVERYWHERE? Human intervention #2?

In Hebrew this is pronounced as "YeHWoH" (Yod-Shewa He Vav-Qamets-Hatauf He). In Aramaic, the cognate is "NeHWoA" (Yoodh-Etsatsa He Wau-Zqofo He) (note how the vowels are identical). Most Jewish Tanakhim have YHWH spelled (Yod-Shewa He Vav-Qamets-Hatauf He). What's the problem here?

Not sure. Why is the Aramaic so different? Where did you get the Aramaic version from anyway? Did you translate the Hebrew back to Aramaic? Or did you actually find an original Aramaic Gospel somewhere?? I'm not writing this as an attack!! Honest!

2 God spoke to Moses, and said to him, “I am YHWH; 3 and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty; but by my name is YHWH. I was not understood by them.

Hmmm I can't wrap my meagerly brain around this one. Why would God knowingly use a name that they would not know Him with??

Yours is a correct english translation, but an ambiguous english translation. Much like how the Greek word "kai" is translated as "and" in most places, but can be employed like the english word "also." So I could say a "correct" rendering from a Greek source to be "So I and went to them" when what is easier to understand would be "So I also went to them."

Human intervention #3!!

Obviously, the word translated as "know" was translated in error. This error was due to two things:

1) The translation of the LXX into Greek, which spread as the main version used by the majority of Christians and Jews until modern times.
2) Ambiguous english and incomplete matchup to the Hebrew cognate.

Even now, in translations from the Hebrew, "known" is still used as is "I am who I am." The same reason why there is not a single english translation to date (with the possible exception of 2 or 3) that have not been influenced by the KJV in some way.

HUMAN INTERVENTION...drum roll...#4!!!!

Eloah and Allah, similar yes. But Eloah simply means "Mighty" in Hebrew. It has taken on a new meaning in Arabic. Additionally, I stress, "Al-lah" = "haEloah" in Hebrew, not "Elohim."

Will need to discuss this further.. but I like where you're headed. And love the way you diaologue! Let's keep it up!

 

[lowly one]

Allah in the qur'an is strictly used as reference to the Islamic god. Whereas, whenever it speaks of god or gods, it uses 'Elaah'. But when the qur'an is translated into any other language, it is rather strange that the word 'Allah' for the name of the Islamic god, is usually left untranslated. Muslims from all walks of life know their god as 'Allah' and not YHWH. According to Exodus 3:15, YHWH and not allah is the name by which God had required to be known throughout all generations upon the face of the earth. Both Christians and Jews know and revere Him as YHWH.

Sometimes just truth is not quite THE TRUTH!

 

[mo.mentum]

In fact I know Arabic Christians who refer to God (the triune Christian God) as 'Allah'. So I have always been given to understand that Allah is not a name, but simply the arabic word for God.

Naaah. It is also the name of God that they use. "god" is "Ilah", the name of God is "Allah" which Christian and Jews use too. And it's important to know the name of God!

"You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone Guiltless who misuses His name" Deuteronomy5:11

Well, correct me if I am wrong about the Muslim interpretation of the word 'Allah', and maybe I can ask my muslim friends for confirmation.

Send them to me..I'll educate them The word has special properties in the Arabic Grammar, it is employed as a proper name (grammatically known as "Issm Al Jalalah" and also as a composite of the "Al-Ilah", or "THE God". As well as other properties.

These verses clearly imply that God intended his name to be the Hebrew version of 'I AM'. I also think it is ridiculous to ask God for his 'name' as if he had to be distinguished from a variety of other Gods.

Wierd. SO what is "I AM" in Ancient Hebrew? And why is it no longer employed after all these generations? I think there was a mistranslation on the parts of the Greeks somewhere. Greeks have always had a nack for complicated theology and philosophical complexities

Which is why I think God's reply to Moses, 'I AM who I AM', and his name 'I AM' is the most apt, since it represents a God who is ever present and who requires no name to be identified.

I disagree. I think He needs to supply us with His name which is different from the names of the idols which man has created as idols and intercessors between him and his Creator. if God was content with whatever we think His name was, then we might as well call Him "Bob". God forbid. And I hope He forgives me for this sort of blasphemy

 

[mo.mentum]

Muslims from all walks of life know their god as 'Allah' and not YHWH. According to Exodus 3:15, YHWH and not allah is the name by which God had required to be known throughout all generations upon the face of the earth. Both Christians and Jews know and revere Him as YHWH.

Sometimes just truth is not quite THE TRUTH!

That doesn't advance the argument on either side. But thanks for the input.

 

[The Thadman]

Thad. You da man. Very good retort! I have some questions.

Throw'em my way, I'll do my best

Ilah is "god". Allah is "The God", not as "THE God", but as in the "The Only One God", His proper name. "The God" would be "Al-Ilah". But "Allah" is a proper name which does use "Ilah" as a root. Just like any Semetic language, names are composed of base verbs. "Ilaha" is "Divinity". "Allah" is "The Divinity", to be distinguised from any other "Ilah".

Interesting

Just as my name is "Mohamed", its root verb is "Ha Ma Da", which is "To Praise". Mohamed is "One Who Is Praised". Or another popular name is "Abdul-lah", or "Servant/Slave/Worshipper of Allah"...which comes from "Aa Ba Da", or "To Worship".

Cool

I didn't know about the "ha" nor have I seen it. Can you refer me to some verses where this is used? Also, what other deities are mentioned in such way?

Sure:

Exodus 18:11 "Know that YHWH is greater than all gods (haElohim)..."
Leviticus 19:4 "Don't turn to idols, nor make molten gods (haElohim) for yourselves. I am YHWH your God (Elohim)."

Just to name 2 out of approx 622 (or so my Bible software says).

As for Elohim, the "im" suffix is not also used when addressing God directly, as in "O God", "O Eloh". In Arabic, the suffix "uma" is added to denote such a way of speaking and can be "confused" with a plural form of the world. So when you want to say "O Allah, Grant me peace and wipe my sins away", you would employ "Allahuma".

I'll research this in the OT and get back to you.

But i can see where this might be a problem since Elohim is used to refer to "other" brings, not directly to God. I'm still working on that one. I'm highly suspicious tho of those who say this is referring to Angels or other deities that were in some way "equivalent" or "shared the power" of God.

Moses was called Elohim, Judges were called Elohim, and a bunch of other things are called Elohim as well. It's a title, not a name.

I still can't find "haEloah"!

See above. I'll look for specific instances of haEloah for you.

I'm not sure what you mean. He never is that obvious in the Bible.

It's VERY obvious in the Bible. God NEVER says that his name is El or any of it's derivatives. ONLY YHWH.

Ouch. That bad huh? Ok scrap that!

It's not that they don't hit the nail on the head most of the time, it's just that the nails they're aiming at are on their coffin. REALLY wacky theology.

But we have no vowel markings! In Arabic and Hebrew, the alphabet is solely composed of consonants. In order to put vowels, you add little dots or dashes above and under letters to make the "a" "o" "i" sounds. So we have the consonants YHWH, but not the vowels. Of course the language is there, but not the specific vowels. Unless you're hiding some source from us!

Aramaic has been around for much longer than Arabic and Hebrew (most scholars say). Some Jewish sects state that Adam spoke in Aramaic instead of Hebrew, too (it's mentioned in a Talmudic reference). But the strange thing is that all Aramaic dialects today, even though they're scattered to the winds, use the same vowel pattern, a pattern that was passed down their language's tree. It is this multiple, independent attestation of Aramaic and Hebrew that I can say makes me confident that we're as close as it was in OT times

There are a couple of entomological differences between Aramaic and Hebrew that I think I should explain first.

1) There's this concept called the "transmigration of letters" (sometimes called "consonantal shifts"). Some letters in Aramaic are just different in their Hebrew counterparts. For example, most terminal He's in Hebrew turn into terminal 'Olafs in Aramaic. So, for example, "`almah" (the world; Alef - Lamed - Mim - He) in Hebrew is "`olmo'" ('Olaf - Lomadh - Meem - 'Olaf) in Aramaic. Due to these normal shifts, NHWA (Noon - He - Wau - 'Olaf) in Aramaic is YHWH (Yod - He - Vav - He) in Hebrew.

2) Vowel patterns are similar, but they have different names. Otherwise, the tenses in Hebrew are almost identical to those in Aramaic. In any Jewish TaNaKh look for YHWH, and you'll see it spelled /Yod-Shewa - He - Vav-Qamets-Hatauf - He/. This is the 3rd person masculine singular FUTURE of the verb "to be." Skimming over the Lord's Prayer in the Peshitta (your will WILL BE {DONE}), we find the 3rd person masculine singular FUTURE of the Aramaic verb "to be" as NHWA. The spelling identical using #1 as a guide.

Ok. So human intervention #1 into Holy Scripture.

Human intervention in TRANSLATION. The original scripture was never wrong

Human tradition is fallible I'm not the only one throughout all of the ages to realize this, though, remember. God preserves his word on HIS terms, not mine, or anyone else's.

Yep! Same as Arabic. See above. The 99 Names God attributes to Himself in the Qur'an are all formed with root verbs, which are composed of three base letters. The entire language is built this way and makes for an amazing array of vocabulary. Actually, a great majority of names, even usual words, are formed this way in Arabic. The word "Food" derives from the verb "To Eat" (Akel=Food, Ah Ka La=To Eat)

Same with Aramaic. Reesh-Kkeyth-Meem is the verb "rokkem" or "love." Add the masculine ending and you get "rokkmo" or "friend," add the feminine ending and you get "rokkemtho" or "love (n)."

But the point is, that those aren't NAMES of God, those are only titles. What other titles does President Bush have? Many. What's his name? George.

I was only giving an example that it didn't make sense that He would say "I am that I am". But even as a name "He will be" doesn't make much sense, no? It's not an attribute, not an action, just a future event. I know, I'm being touchy on this one. But I hope you can understand why. Why should it be "I will be what I will be" if it is translated as "I am what I am" EVERYWHERE? Human intervention #2?

And "He will save" isn't? It's right there in the Hebrew text. And if you look back a verse or two from the scene with Moses receiving this, you'll notice Yod-He-Vav-He being used as a normal, average, everyday verb.

Now, taking a step back, according to the Christian viewpoint, what did God become? How does this have significance?

Matthew 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.

Human intervention in translation. The original scripture was never wrong

Not sure. Why is the Aramaic so different? Where did you get the Aramaic version from anyway? Did you translate the Hebrew back to Aramaic? Or did you actually find an original Aramaic Gospel somewhere?? I'm not writing this as an attack!! Honest!

That's just how the language works. Not much is published concerning 1st Century Aramaic, as most Aramaic work deals with Old Testament Aramaic (which has some slight differences with noun forms (basic noun endings), but everything else, most importantly the verbs, are identical).

As for the Aramaic version, give my website a looksee:

http://www.AramaicNT.org

Click, "What Manuscripts Are There?" on the top menubar, and enjoy the rest of the site.

Hmmm I can't wrap my meagerly brain around this one. Why would God knowingly use a name that they would not know Him with??

Although "know" is a proper cognate, it skimps on meaning here. Like I said before "understand" is a better rendering (much like "also" in special cases with the Greek "kai").

Do you understand everything God knows?

Human intervention #3!!

Human intervention in TRANSLATION. The original scripture was never wrong

HUMAN INTERVENTION...drum roll...#4!!!!

See above, rokkmi.

Will need to discuss this further.. but I like where you're headed. And love the way you diaologue! Let's keep it up!

Hey, I'm for it as long as you are

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

 

[LightBearer]

Originally by Mo-Mentum

So is Jehovah His name? "The word Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew" (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p20, published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)

You appear by this quote from "The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever" Published by "The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society" to be promoting the idea that Jehovah's Witnesses not only make this statement but wholly agree that it is of any real consequence. This isn't strictly the case. You have given only a partial quote which on the face of it is very deceptive. If this was deliberate on your part then it is very poor practice to say the least and quite shameful.

For the members benefit the full quote from the aforementioned publication is posted below.

"In the preface to the Revised Standard Version, we read: “For two reasons the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James Version [that is, omitting the name of God]: (1) the word ‘Jehovah’ does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and (2) the use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom he had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”

Are these sound arguments? Well, as discussed earlier, the name Jesus does not accurately represent the original form of the name of God’s Son used by his followers. Yet this did not persuade the Committee to avoid using that name and to use instead a title such as “Mediator” or “Christ.” True, these titles are used, but in addition to the name Jesus, not instead of it". (The Divine Name that will Endure Forever, p20, published by Watchtower Bible and Tract Society)


As you can see the statement "The word Jehovah does not accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew" and therefore is valid reason to remove it from their translation, is not made by the Watchtower Society but made by the translation commitee of the Revised Standard Version. A sentiment to which the Watchtower Society in the next paragraph do not wholly agree.