Jars of Clay & SSM

[revanneosl]

So the feelings mutual? ..yay?
I say again. court marriages aren't marriages in my eyes. If a church married them than more power to them.

They were married in church 22 years ago. Last summer they were finally able to be legally married by the state.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

It sounds to me like you're condoning sin. You're allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs. God calls homosexuality an abomination. God says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Therefore, who do you support? A sinful culture, or God?

Denying same sex couples the right to marry isn't something that makes any sense to me. Given that, at least in my country--the United States--marriage is a legal contract made with the state, and has been declared a fundamental human right by the US Supreme Court the opposition to it is, somewhat, mind boggling.

It literally has no impact on how religious groups define marriage for themselves, such as a sacramental, covenantal union as it is in Christianity. We are, as a matter of civil law, talking about a state recognized social contract.

Even if you are morally opposed to how homosexual persons live their lives, they are still equal citizens under the law of a secular republic who are deserving of the same fair treatment under that law as all citizens are. As such they are entitled to the basic civil liberties all its citizens are entitled to. One of those civil liberties is marriage, that's not up for debate, that right was recognized by the Supreme Court decades ago when the US Supreme Court ruled that anti-miscegenation laws were unconstitutional--on the grounds that the right to marry is a fundamental right of man.

It is, as a point of fact, unconstitutional for the state to prohibit two consenting adults the right to marry; no less so than denying mixed-race couples the right to marry.

And no, this doesn't lead to a "slippery slope" toward men marrying toasters or their ostriches. The issue is, and always has been, about consenting adults; not toasters, ostriches or whatever else. But consenting adults protected by and beholden to the Constitution.

And note: None of this has to do with the morality of how homosexual persons live their lives--that topic is verboten and I understand that. I am instead speaking rather specifically on a matter of secular, civil law, specifically US law.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It sounds to me like you're condoning sin. You're allowing the culture to dictate your beliefs. God calls homosexuality an abomination. God says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Therefore, who do you support? A sinful culture, or God?

I support human beings, created in the image and likeness of God, to be treated with full equality under the secular laws of the United States; so that none should be treated unfairly and unjustly; in keeping with the injunctions in Holy Scripture, by the command of God, to love my neighbor and to pursue justice--especially for the least of these.

Who then, should I follow, God who has given me His commands in Scripture, or a hypocritical culture of hate and injustice?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

God calls it sin. God calls it an abomination. You call it hate if people don't condone the using of legal action to deconstruct the legal aspect of marriage.

I support human beings, created in the image and likeness of God, to be treated with full equality under the secular laws of the United States; so that none should be treated unfairly and unjustly; in keeping with the injunctions in Holy Scripture, by the command of God, to love my neighbor and to pursue justice--especially for the least of these.

Who then, should I follow, God who has given me His commands in Scripture, or a hypocritical culture of hate and injustice?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You call it hate if people don't condone the using of legal action to deconstruct the legal aspect of marriage.

I call it discrimination for a nation to deny citizens their basic civil rights. The US government is not beholden to what your particular brand of Christian religion says is moral or immoral. Sixty years ago there were plenty who considered it an abomination for a people of different ethnicities to marry, blacks and whites could not be married in many states in the union. That was overturned as unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Love v Virginia which ruled that marriage was a basic right of man that could not be infringed upon.

So marriage has already been defined by SCOTUS as a protected civil right of American citizens.

There are legal solutions to the problem we have:

1) Grant the same rights to same sex couples as are granted to different sex couples.

2) Remove state involvement in marriage completely, rendering marriage only as a ceremony to be shared as a religious ceremony--having no legal meaning whatsoever.

Because to grant a certain right to some citizens and deny it to others is the very definition of discrimination. And if America is going to be a secular nation that guarantees equal and equitable freedom under the law to all citizens, then it cannot discriminate as to who can and who cannot have those freedoms.

If you don't want the United States to be a secular democratic republic, as it has been since its founding, then the way I see it you can try and change the country into a Theocracy that is governed by your church's particular interpretations of Scripture and comprehension of morality. But if that is the route you want to go, expect opposition from just about everybody else--we don't want an authoritarian theocracy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tulc]

when shellfish eating and wearing mixed cloth are banned then come tell me about how Biblical abominations shouldn't be allowed in America.
tulc(is just sayn')

 

[FRM48]

Churches marry consistent liars, thieves, and adulterers all the time. Whats one sin over another? Thats my viewpoint on the matter. I don't know why some christians focus on one sin over another. I guess homosexuals getting married is contributiing to the destruction of our country 10x more than every single lying greedy politician current in seat? If only we were as vocal on the other sins that have a mutiplying effect of misery upon christian and non christian alike.

Has there been some sort of new warped teaching that certain sins are more evil than others I am not aware of? I was taught and still thing under the assumption that all sins are equal in offense to God. There are not "little" sins and 'big" sins. I guess our legal punitive actions in relation to the crime of the last 500 years has warped our perception of sin.

I believe James 2:10 is the main verse that backs me up on this. I believe Jesus taught a parable about it as well. I cannot think of of the top of my head which one.

Honestly, whenever I'm done with my schooling and officially get ordained. I will not marry anybody period. Americans in general have no appreciation for marriage. If I am sent as a missionary to another country I might re-think and marry someone there.

It's not about the sin it's about changing the biblical meaning of marriage,God ordained marriage between man and woman,not man and man or woman and woman.If you want to line up on the other side of sound biblical teaching that's your choice,but I will not because it is an affront to God.

 

[tulc]

It's not about the sin it's about changing the biblical meaning of marriage,God ordained marriage between man and woman,not man and man or woman and woman.If you want to line up on the other side of sound biblical teaching that's your choice,but I will not because it is an affront to God.

Well...that's one form of Biblical marriage, there's also these:

so if you want to support "Biblical Marriage" the above are also aspects it.
tulc(has reasons to support SSM not connected to any of the above)

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

I call it discrimination for a nation to deny citizens their basic civil rights.

...

Because to grant a certain right to some citizens and deny it to others is the very definition of discrimination. And if America is going to be a secular nation that guarantees equal and equitable freedom under the law to all citizens, then it cannot discriminate as to who can and who cannot have those freedoms.

Ah...."Lutheran"..
Well, I expect, then, to hear your unwavering support for people in incestuous or polygamous relationships as well - and your demand to have them be able to marry eachother as well.
Or is that somehow totally different because these groups aren't politically correct?

 

[Slappi]

I support human beings, created in the image and likeness of God, to be treated with full equality under the secular laws of the United States; so that none should be treated unfairly and unjustly; in keeping with the injunctions in Holy Scripture, by the command of God, to love my neighbor and to pursue justice--especially for the least of these.

Who then, should I follow, God who has given me His commands in Scripture, or a hypocritical culture of hate and injustice?

-CryptoLutheran

You condone sin therefore you condemn yourself.

 

[Slappi]

Well...that's one form of Biblical marriage, there's also these:

so if you want to support "Biblical Marriage" the above are also aspects it.
tulc(has reasons to support SSM not connected to any of the above)

Then there's our Savior's way, which is clearly laid out for us in scripture as a man and woman and is obvious anyway. Then there's tulc's way, which we don't know fully but do know he/she promotes SSM which we know is a sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You condone sin therefore you condemn yourself.

I figure that's what some people said in the past in regard to those who opposed anti-miscegenation laws.

My faith in Christ is certain. My conscience clear. And my conviction to the love of neighbor and toward justice real.

If God judges me condemned, He has the right of it.

You, however, do not stand in the Seat of God to reign over as Judge and Lord; so you'll forgive me if I don't particularly take your opinion here with much seriousness.

"My conscience is captive to the word of God."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Slappi]

I figure that's what some people said in the past in regard to those who opposed anti-miscegenation laws.

My faith in Christ is certain. My conscience clear. And my conviction to the love of neighbor and toward justice real.

If God judges me condemned, He has the right of it.

You, however, do not stand in the Seat of God to reign over as Judge and Lord; so you'll forgive me if I don't particularly take your opinion here with much seriousness.

"My conscience is captive to the word of God."

-CryptoLutheran

Not surprised. You are however on a Christian Forum espousing sinful beliefs calling yourself a Christian so.... What do you want others to think?

Sin will not enter into our Father's Kingdom. How do you plan on accomplishing that feat if you don't mind my asking?

Homosexual contact is SIN. Let's speak plainly here... do you believe it is SIN or not? From you posts I will assume you do not believe it is a sin until you inform me otherwise. Therefore, if you don't believe it is a sin and you practice it or promote it you yourself are sinning. If you do not ask for this sin to be forgiven how do you enter the Kingdom? I'm just curious because I can't see how it's possible.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not surprised. You are however on a Christian Forum espousing sinful beliefs calling yourself a Christian so.... What do you want others to think?

Last I checked speaking up for the powerless and the despised are not sins. The Prophet Micah wrote, "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8). Our Lord Jesus Christ has taught us, in the 25th chapter of Matthew, that on Judgment He shall turn to those on His right and and to His left concerning how they treated the poor, the hungry, the naked, the sick, and the stranger.

Sin will not enter into our Father's Kingdom. How do you plan on accomplishing that feat if you don't mind my asking?

This sinner plans on trusting on the shed blood of the Son of God who gave His life for me. On account of my baptism by which having been clothed with Christ and His righteousness I, wretched sinner that I am, hope only in the mercy of God, through the faith granted me by the Holy Spirit. As St. Paul says, "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God--not of works, lest anyone should boast. For what we are God has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared for us."

Homosexual contact is SIN. Let's speak plainly here... do you believe it is SIN or not? From you posts I will assume you do not believe it is a sin until you inform me otherwise. Therefore, if you don't believe it is a sin and you practice it or promote it you yourself are sinning. If you do not ask for this sin to be forgiven how do you enter the Kingdom? I'm just curious because I can't see how it's possible.

My position on the subject is not considered CF appropriate. But that isn't the debate I've been engaging in. My debate has involved the civil liberties of American citizens according to American civil law. And have supported a position of justice for those denied justice, in accordance with Scripture and the faith of the Christian Church. If you are interested in arguing that we ought to treat our neighbors unjustly and unlovingly you can take that up with the Lord, He is the One who has taught us that the Greatest Commandment is the love of God and the love of our neighbor.

You are certainly welcome to continue to berate me and attempt to manipulate me with fear of damnation. But my hope rests upon the solid rock of Jesus Christ and His righteousness, the Author and Finisher of my faith, and Chief Cornerstone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Slappi]

Last I checked speaking up for the powerless and the despised are not sins. The Prophet Micah wrote, "He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" (Micah 6:8). Our Lord Jesus Christ has taught us, in the 25th chapter of Matthew, that on Judgment He shall turn to those on His right and and to His left concerning how they treated the poor, the hungry, the naked, the sick, and the stranger.



This sinner plans on trusting on the shed blood of the Son of God who gave His life for me. On account of my baptism by which having been clothed with Christ and His righteousness I, wretched sinner that I am, hope only in the mercy of God, through the faith granted me by the Holy Spirit. As St. Paul says, "For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith, this is not of your own doing; it is the gift of God--not of works, lest anyone should boast. For what we are God has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared for us."



My position on the subject is not considered CF appropriate. But that isn't the debate I've been engaging in. My debate has involved the civil liberties of American citizens according to American civil law. And have supported a position of justice for those denied justice, in accordance with Scripture and the faith of the Christian Church. If you are interested in arguing that we ought to treat our neighbors unjustly and unlovingly you can take that up with the Lord, He is the One who has taught us that the Greatest Commandment is the love of God and the love of our neighbor.

You are certainly welcome to continue to berate me and attempt to manipulate me with fear of damnation. But my hope rests upon the solid rock of Jesus Christ and His righteousness, the Author and Finisher of my faith, and Chief Cornerstone.

-CryptoLutheran

I do not go around preaching hell and damnation on homosexuals. Most of the homosexuals I've met are not Christians nor claim to be. That is up to them. I will not judge them personally. However if someone proclaiming to be a follower of Christ is promoting that which is clearly sin I will definitely say something. You can throw out all the verses you choose to but it doesn't take away from the fact that you are promoting a sinful act while stating you follow Christ. As I said earlier, you condemn yourself by your own tongue (or keyboard in this instance).

No one is denied justice in respect to SSM in this country. It is a perversion and a sin and should be treated as such. There really is nothing to debate there from a Christian point of view. You will get your fill next month when the USSC sides with your beliefs. You are good with the verses (much better than I and that is definitely commended) doesn't Jesus state that the world hates him and would hate us as well if we follow him? Didn't he tell us to not love the world and not to desire love from it?

I get no joy from anyone that ends up dying the second death. My wish is that everyone, you included, enters into the Kingdom. I don't know you, all I know is what I've read of your posts, but from what I've read I don't see how you get around the sin not entering the Kingdom part. It doesn't matter what we want to believe it only matters what is true. The Bible is crystal clear on the matter. I have my own sins, many in fact and my own problems that I need to work on daily. I cannot condone my sins and say they are not sin just because....

 

[RhaegarTargaryen]

I still want to know if you're going to speak up for the "rights" of people in incestuous relationships, and polygamists. They, if any, need your support, if you're in fact serious abou the "let's call everything love that everyone else calls love"-thing, and not just in the case of those groups who are politically correct and have funny characters from TV shows to act as their representatives.

 

[Breezyberlin]

I've never heard of this band. But according to the article they were popular in the 90's? Maybe this was their way of becoming relevant again. That old saying? "There's no such thing as bad publicity."
Now while he's apologized for what he's said in some parts he and his band are popular again. Even in this fire storm.
Sounds like a publicity stunt.

They are still really popular. I am surprised you have never heard of them. They are pretty much legendary and have been releasing music, well, regularily since the 90s. I am certain this is not a publicity stunt. I am not at all surprised by their opinions, I have heard in their lyrics, for a long time, that they are growing less Jesus focused and "love" focused. Pseudo-Love is the new world religion....

 

[Armoured]

Yes, I read of this. Very surprising he's arrive at this conclusion. Perhaps he's gay.

Or perhaps he just asked perfectly reasonable questions, and people get angry when they're asked questions they can't answer, hence the backlash.

 

[Armoured]

I still want to know if you're going to speak up for the "rights" of people in incestuous relationships, and polygamists. They, if any, need your support, if you're in fact serious abou the "let's call everything love that everyone else calls love"-thing, and not just in the case of those groups who are politically correct and have funny characters from TV shows to act as their representatives.

I suppose you're completely oblivious to the fact you just made this guy's "slippery slope" point, huh?