James White

[Hoonbaba]

Uhm.....is it really necessary to tear apart one another? Maybe I'm misinterpreting what's going on. In any case, can someone address the quotes mentioned on this page?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=706749#post706749

Honestly I would listen to both sides of the Patty Bond issue, but I'm on a public pc and I don't have any speakers =)

I'm particularly interested in the arguments he makes.

-Jason

 

[isshinwhat]

Examples of the Peter Syndrome are to be found on almost every page of the work. Citations are often given that only speak to an exalted view of Peter in a particular Father, and no attempt is made at all to connect the citation to the bishop of Rome. The fact that the <I>cathedra Petri</I> (chair of Peter) in Cyprian and other North African Fathers specifically referred to the <I>entire bishopric</I> of the Church, so that Cyprian viewed <I>all</I> bishops as fulfilling Matthew 16:18 (not just the bishop of Rome), is seemingly not understood by our writers. Passages from Fathers are listed under such grand titles as "Primacy of the Pope and the Roman Church" that have <I>nothing whatsoever to do</I> with either the Papacy or the Roman Church.

This bothers me soooooo badly...

The fact that the <I>cathedra Petri</I> (chair of Peter) in Cyprian and other North African Fathers specifically referred to the <I>entire bishopric</I> of the Church, so that Cyprian viewed <I>all</I> bishops as fulfilling Matthew 16:18 (not just the bishop of Rome)

Someone will read this, see the word fact, and not even bother to read the work of Cyprian's that is in question.&nbsp; Here is the relevant text:

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided."
Cyprian,The Unity of the Church,4-5 (Primacy Text,A.D.251/256),NE,228-229

James White can argue against Petrine Primacy all he wants, that is fine by me.&nbsp; But to argue that Cyprian did not hold to that belief seems to be dishonest.&nbsp; Cyprian clearly states, "a primacy is given to Peter."&nbsp; All bishops are equal in Ordination.&nbsp; The Bishop of Nashville is every bit as much a bishop as the Bishop of Rome.&nbsp; What is different&nbsp;are their ministries.&nbsp; The Bishop of Rome sits in the Chair of Peter, which according to Cyprian is the "the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness."&nbsp; That is what Cyprian meant when he said, "although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair."

Hope this helps a little bit, Jason.

Neal

 

[Caedmon]

I apologize if I came across as belligerent in my last posts. I was not in a particulary good mood at the time.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Hi Neal,

The quote was helpful, but are there any more Petrine primacy&nbsp;statements&nbsp;made by the&nbsp;early Church Fathers&nbsp;that give stronger support?

-Jason

 

[isshinwhat]

I don't know how much stronger you can get than, "a Primacy is given to Peter... If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?" &nbsp; but I'll try. What must be remembered, though, is there is not a separation between the Church at Rome and the Bishop of Rome. The Bishop of Rome is the leader of the Roman Church, thus anything that is said of it is by default said of its Bishop.

For instance Jerome's statement here:

"But he was not so eager as to lay aside caution. He called the bishop to him, and esteeming that there can be no true thankfulness except it spring from true faith, he enquired whether he agreed with the Catholic bishops, that is, with the Roman Church?"
Ambrose,The death of his brother Satyrus,1:47(A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:168

Jerome equates the belief of the Catholic bishops with that of the Roman Church. This was before the Great Schism, so there was only the Catholic Church. It is this united Church whose belief was synonomous with the Roman Church, whose chief pastor would be the Bishop of Rome. Jerome makes his point very clear when he writes this phrase in a letter to Pope Damasus in 375 A.D.

As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!

Other such quotes are:

"You cannot deny that you know that in the city of Rome the Chair was first conferred on Peter, in which the prince of all the Apostles, Peter,sat ... in which Chair unity should be preserved by all, so that he should now be a schismatic and a sinner who should set up another Chair against that unique one."
Optatus of Mileve,The Schism of Donatists,2:2-3 (c.A.D. 367),in GCC,55

So it seems to us right and altogether fitting that priests of the Lord from each and every province should report to their head, that is, to the See of Peter, the Apostle."
Council of Sardica,To Pope Julius (A.D. 342),as cited by James T. Shotwell and Louise Ropes Loomis The See of Peter (New York:Columbia,1927),pp.527-528.

This next quote from Cyprian I find very telling because not only does it relay at least some inherent belief in the infallibility of the one who is seated in the "throne of Peter" when he states that "faithlessness could have no access" to the teachings of the Roman Church, but he states that the unity of the Priesthood, what makes the Church One Body in Christ, finds its source in the Roman Church, specifically the Petrine Chair.

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare--a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics--to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access."
Cyprian,To Cornelius,Epistle 54/59:14(A.D. 252),in ANF,V:344

There is also Iranaeus who states the following:

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416

Iranaeus states that it is a Tradition derived from the Apostles themselves that "...it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this [Roman] Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority."

But what I find most compelling is this statement from a Canon of the Council of Chalcedon, a Ecumenical Council accepted by both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

"Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties."
Council of Chalcedon,Session III (A.D. 451),in NPNF2,XIV:259-260

God Bless, Jason,

Neal

 

[isshinwhat]

You might get something out of this, Jason. It's a lot of trash-talking, but some issues are actually addressed...

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy1.htm

 

[Hoonbaba]

Wow thanks for the quotes and that link! It was VERY helpful =)

Anyway, I'm curious: Where did you find these quotes? Did you quote actual books or were they posted on some other websites?

I think I'd like to do some reading on all this =)

-Jason

 

[isshinwhat]

They were all from the site I listed above.

www.cin.org/users/jgallegos

God Bless,

Neal

 

[chelcb]

Jason,

You may also find this one helpful to. A lot of the those quotes can be found in it's orginal context on here. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/TOC.htm#TopOfPage

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Great Thread!

BTW, James White's anti-Catholic book, "Mary, another Redeemer?," helped me see how silly the Protestant views on Mary are while I was converting to the Church.