James and justification, showing righteousness

[GDL]

Good post.
Verse 18 "until all becomes". The "all" is us in respect to us being the light unto the world, the salt that has not lost it's savor (Vs. 13-16) through Christ that God be glorified.

Thank you.
I see "all (neuter) being broader and meaning everything becomes as it will be according to God's Plan for His Creation. The Law and the Prophets speak of His eschatological plan for His creation including the removal of sin and man with God finally having dominion over a land where righteousness dwells. I agree we are included in this "becoming."

 

[GDL]

Your take and what scripture teach are two different things. All will be accomplished under the new and better covenant.

I'm not sure why you think my take is that we're under the previous covenant and not in the NC in Christ. What I can see is that you confuse both law and love.

 

[Bob S]

GDL, you tell me I am, now give me some evidence. By the way GDL, my post was not directed to you, it was directed to Him.

 

[GDL]

GDL, you tell me I am, now give me some evidence. By the way GDL, my post was not directed to you, it was directed to Him.

Previously discussed. No point to further discussion. BTW, your post was directed at who exactly? You were posting my statements without identifying they were mine. Never mind, it's not that important.

 

[Bob S]

Hi GDL, what is important is to realize Gentiles were never under the ritual laws of the covenant given only to those who were slaves in Egypt. Why is it some are trying to convince Gentiles we must now observe some of those rituals today?

When the old covenant ended at Calvary Jews were set free from those rituals. 15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2

I believe what Paul wrote in all of Galatians, which makes me at odds with some of the posters on this forum. They tell me that I am lawless because I don't observe the ritual Seventh-day Sabbath. The prophetess of the SDAs wrote that I cannot be saved because I do not believe I have to keep the Sabbath. Those edicts are diametrically opposed to what Paul taught. Salvation comes by faith and not by the works of the Law.

You wrote an observation "What I can see is that you confuse both law and love." You wrote that edict without any explanation as to why you believe that and then refuse to explain. I believe I asked you sometime back if you are a Sabbath observer. To my knowledge you never answered my question. What you write seems to coincide with their belief system. To know what a person believes helps how to deal with those I debate. is there some reason you didn't answer my question?

 

[GDL]

Hi GDL, what is important is to realize Gentiles were never under the ritual laws of the covenant given only to those who were slaves in Egypt. Why is it some are trying to convince Gentiles we must now observe some of those rituals today?

When the old covenant ended at Calvary Jews were set free from those rituals. 15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. Gal2

I believe what Paul wrote in all of Galatians, which makes me at odds with some of the posters on this forum. They tell me that I am lawless because I don't observe the ritual Seventh-day Sabbath. The prophetess of the SDAs wrote that I cannot be saved because I do not believe I have to keep the Sabbath. Those edicts are diametrically opposed to what Paul taught. Salvation comes by faith and not by the works of the Law.

You wrote an observation "What I can see is that you confuse both law and love." You wrote that edict without any explanation as to why you believe that and then refuse to explain. I believe I asked you sometime back if you are a Sabbath observer. To my knowledge you never answered my question. What you write seems to coincide with their belief system. To know what a person believes helps how to deal with those I debate. is there some reason you didn't answer my question?

Hi Bob S:

I think the picture of Israel's Law is much bigger than many say it is. But, for now, I'll leave it at that. As for your first question, it's a good one to be answered by those who may be trying to convince of such.

Re: The Gal2 issue; that verse really doesn't say the Jews were set free from rituals. If they were set free from rituals, then that has to be said elsewhere. There's also the matter of whether or not a Jew or anyone else is free to observe some Biblical rituals if they so choose to do so.

I understand the Sabbath issue, maybe from both sides of the argument, and will leave it at that for now and say just a bit more below.

Re: law and love confusion. You and I have had discussions re: this topic, so I don't really see it being an issue of you & I needing to rehash them for you to understand what I meant. I've said the same thing or very similar things to you before on a few occasions as I recall. I don't think it fair of anyone to tell you you're not saved if you don't observe Sabbath on the 7th day any more than I would think it fair for anyone to say you're not saved if you don't go to their church on Sunday.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think it fair of anyone to tell you you're not saved if you don't observe Sabbath on the 7th day any more than I would think it fair for anyone to say you're not saved if you don't go to their church on Sunday.

I would like to point out though that one of these is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 and one is not, so I don't agree they are equal. No scripture that says do not profane the first day, thus saith the Lord. A better equivalent imho would be saying not being saved if coveting, or worshipping other gods. You break one, you break them all quoting from the Ten James 2:10-12 so they are equal.

 

[GDL]

I would like to point out though that one of these is a commandment of God Exodus 20:8-11 and one is not, so I don't agree they equal. No scripture that says do not profane the first day, thus saith the Lord. A better equivalent imho would be saying not being saved if coveting, or worshipping other gods. You break one, you break them all James 2:10-12 so they are equal.

Thanks for clarifying. My intent was not to equate them but to say neither should be used to say someone is not initially justified. FWIW, the Sunday version is not for me, SDA has done much work to show how it began, and I currently go to 1Cor9 at minimum for some views on freedom depending upon what I'm using that freedom for.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks for clarifying. My intent was not to equate them but to say neither should be used to say someone is not initially justified. FWIW, the Sunday version is not for me, SDA has done much work to show how it began, and I currently go to 1Cor9 at minimum for some views on freedom depending upon what I'm using that freedom for.

We are not justified by any law keeping, we keep the commandments of God through faith. I personally don't see 1Cor9 as freedom to break any of God's commandments, so perhaps I am misunderstanding you as I know this is not what you teach.

EDIT- okay I see what you are saying "initially justified" Jesus accepts us just as we are, but as we grow in Christ we should be moving away from milk onto solid foods and keeping the commandments of God through faith and understanding His Word. I still don't like the comparison for the reasons I stated, but I think I understand what you're saying now.

 

[GDL]

We are not justified by any law keeping, we keep the commandments of God through faith. I personally don't see 1Cor9 as freedom to break any of God's commandments, so perhaps I am misunderstanding you as I know this is not what you teach.

A better equivalent is saying you must wash hands before eating and keeping Sunday worship. Neither are a commandment of God. Jesus said we need to obey the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9

In 1Cor9 Paul describes the freedom he has in Christ to be with Jews and not be as a Jew (even though he is of Israel by race). He has the freedom to be with those without law (or lawless ones) to win them - then he makes sure we understand the limits of this - he cannot be as lawless to God and in parallel, he must be lawful to Christ.

I'm simply not fully convinced that I can't be with Jesus picking and eating grain from the fields on Sabbath, that I have to avoid doing needful good that may arise on Saturday as Jesus did because He saw His Father doing such, that I can't be among the lawless to win them on Saturday, that I was made for Sabbath instead of Sabbath being made for me, that I see Saturday as a needful day to stop everything I'm normally doing for the 6 remaining days to recall He is the Creator or the one who brought Israel out of Egypt or saved me from slavery to sin, when most of my days in any given month or year(s) are mostly redeemed in His Word contemplating and studying Him as Creator and God and my Father and my Lord and my Guide and the Root I'm attached to so I can produce, and the Foundation of the structure I'm a part of, etc...

You are much more versed in this topic of Sabbath than I am. For me to share or Scripturally critique the SDA view in entirety, I would have to go through it in entirety. I have listened to a fair amount of SDA instruction on this subject, but I know there is much more. I found the SDA instruction about Sabbath vs. Sunday very informational. My original concern for Sabbath vs. Sunday was not SDA, but more Messianic. IOW, I did not see what stemmed from Rome to be truly Apostolic and truly replacing the Jewish foundations of Christ's Ekklesia. I've mentioned before that the best congregational experience I've had was the few years prior to Seminary attending a small Messianic Jewish Temple on Shabbat. It was a small group, with a knowledgeable Rabbi, they recognized & understood Messiah and identified Him portrayed in the Jewish Holy Days and throughout the Tanakh, and in observing certain days taught how He is portrayed in them. Among other things, attending a Seder with them was very special, as was each Sabbath.

I guess for me it kind of boils down to this now, SabbathBlessings, I don't trust my spiritual life in Christ to much of anybody anymore. I've been blessed with the time, desire, and sufficient resources to have devoted the past 3+ decades to my pursuit of knowing Him from His Word in Christ in Spirit. Virtually every time I have attended some group in any denomination or have had some fairly extensive discussions with anyone from such groups, I have always been left with the thoughts compared with Scripture that they don't know as much as they profess to know. Beyond that, IMO I was extremely mislead by the theological camp I received my initial training in. This was not intentional. They were just good camp-based soldiers.

At this point, if He makes something clear to me in Scripture, that I do. If there is anything unclear, that I do not take as being fully responsible to do. If He uses someone to convince me or to show me something I'm not seeing, then I hope I'm paying attention and not closing myself off. But I have been trained to read His Text in some detail and much of what I take in from others when I may venture out to see what's being said about some Scripture or Scriptural topic, is at exegetical levels not normally discussed in churches or by those who get their instruction from most pulpits. So, I scrutinize what I'm being told by any person, no matter who they are, no matter how scholarly they think they are or are recognized to be, or how knowledgeable of Scripture they or others think they are.

I hope this is clear and informational. I've respected your point of view and when I might read debates about Sabbath I remain open to any input that may interest me, although at this time, as you know, I don't want to argue about Sabbath or Eschatology. For a bit different reason, I'm getting to the point where I may stop discussing a summary command containing vs. not containing the points it summarizes. I'm sure you know what I mean by this.

With respect.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In 1Cor9 Paul describes the freedom he has in Christ to be with Jews and not be as a Jew (even though he is of Israel by race). He has the freedom to be with those without law (or lawless ones) to win them - then he makes sure we understand the limits of this - he cannot be as lawless to God and in parallel, he must be lawful to Christ.

I appreciate the response back, I will try to be brief so it doesn't end in a debate.

I'm simply not fully convinced that I can't be with Jesus picking and eating grain from the fields on Sabbath, that I have to avoid doing needful good that may arise on Saturday as Jesus did because He saw His Father doing such,

We should be with Jesus, nothing wrong with eating grain in the fields on the Sabbath, the Pharisees were adding man-made rules to the Sabbath and making it about bondage, but that was never God's intent.

that I can't be among the lawless to win them on Saturday, that I was made for Sabbath instead of Sabbath being made for me, that I see Saturday as a needful day to stop everything I'm normally doing for the 6 remaining days to recall He is the Creator or the one who brough Israel out of Egypt or saved me from slavery to sin, when most of my days in any given month or year(s) are mostly redeemed in His Word contemplating and studying Him as Creator and God and my Father and my Lord and my Guide and the Root I'm attached to so I can produce, and the Foundation of the structure I'm a part of, etc...

The Sabbath according to the scripture is a day to do good, spreading the Word of God and reasoning with the scriptures is how the apostles spent their times. Acts 17:2 so certainly nothing wrong with that. I don't view the Sabbath as being under the yoke of bondage but quite the opposite. God worked six days and rested the seventh day blessed and sanctified the seventh day- set it aside for holy use. Genesis 2:1-2 God made man on the latter half of the sixth day Genesis 1:26 and the first thing man did after being created was spend time with God. Adam and Eve didn't need a day of rest on the very first Sabbath and either did God, it was time set apart to be in communion with God. Sin separated man from God so instead of spending time in His presence we remember our Creator and everything that He has done for us each and every Sabbath by resting in His Word and through His Spirit on His holy and blessed day. Nothing bondage about this in my opinion, just a spiritual blessing that many miss out on.

You are much more versed in this topic of Sabbath than I am. For me to share or Scripturally critique the SDA view in entirety, I would have to go through it in entirety. I have listened to a fair amount of SDA instruction on this subject, but I know there is much more. I found the SDA instruction about Sabbath vs. Sunday very informational. My original concern for Sabbath vs. Sunday was not SDA, but more Messianic. IOW, I did not see what stemmed from Rome to be truly Apostolic and truly replacing the Jewish foundations of Christ's Ekklesia. I've mentioned before that the best congregational experience I've had was the few years prior to Seminary attending a small Messianic Jewish Temple on Shabbat. It was a small group, with a knowledgeable Rabbi, they recognized & understood Messiah and identified Him portrayed in the Jewish Holy Days and throughout the Tanakh, and in observing certain days taught how He is portrayed in them. Among other things, attending a Seder with them was very special, as was each Sabbath.

Yes, we share a lot in common with the Messianic, but our biggest differences are the feasts days/animal sacrifices Hebrews 10:1-10 and what happens after we die- I believe they and most denominations teach you go straight to heaven or are in "Abraham's bosom" we believe our bodies go back to ashes Ecclesiastes 12:7 James 2:26 Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10 and will not be with the Lord until His Second Coming. John 5:28, 29 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 There are probably other differences, but these are two I am aware of.

I guess for me it kind of boils down to this now, SabbathBlessings, I don't trust my spiritual life in Christ to much of anybody anymore. I've been blessed with the time, desire, and sufficient resources to have devoted the past 3+ decades to my pursuit of knowing Him from His Word in Christ in Spirit. Virtually every time I have attended some group in any denomination or have had some fairly extensive discussions with anyone from such groups, I have always been left with the thoughts compared with Scripture that they don't know as much as they profess to know. Beyond that, IMO I was extremely mislead by the theological camp I received my initial training in. This was not intentional. They were just good camp-based soldiers.

Yes, this is a sad reality, and no church is immune to. I have been to some SDA churches I have literally walked out of. I recently moved and my previous church with "famous" Pastor Doug was amazing. I travel an hour away for church now and pass two or 3 different SDA churches as the one an hour away strictly teaches from the bible, and I learn something.

At this point, if He makes something clear to me in Scripture, that I do. If there is anything unclear, that I do not take as being fully responsible to do. If He uses someone to convince me or to show me something I'm not seeing, then I hope I'm paying attention and not closing myself off. But I have been trained to read His Text in some detail and much of what I take in from others when I may venture out to see what's being said about some Scripture or Scriptural topic, is at exegetical levels not normally discussed in churches or by those who get their instruction from most pulpits. So, I scrutinize what I'm being told by any person, no matter who they are, no matter how scholarly they think they are or are recognized to be, or how knowledgeable of Scripture they or others think they are.

To be honest, when it comes to the amount of scripture on the Sabbath, I truly do not understand the argument against it. If God told us to keep the third day holy, who are we to argue. The Sabbath debate is not something you find in scripture, there was never a debate between the first day and the Sabbath, only on how to keep the Sabbath and the Pharisees adding their rules to God's rules which they did not just with the Sabbath.

I'm getting to the point where I may stop discussing a summary command containing vs. not containing the points it summarizes. I'm sure you know what I mean by this.

Yes, I do and understood and the Sabbath commandment is in those details.

With respect.

Same.

 

[GDL]

I don't view the Sabbath as being under the yoke of bondage but quite the opposite.

Nor do I -- same for me. Most of this paragraph from you describes my life for some decades now. Virtually every day is set aside as holy. It's disturbing if I have to come out to do some routine necessity. I quit a profession to study then go to seminary. I was in the Text like a full-time job (of passion) for years. Then I taught for some period of time. Then I moved to go into full-time study without teaching for a while. Then I got pulled back into teaching and would put in anywhere from 10-60 hours in the Text in a week to prep for a 1.5-2hr class. If I had surplus hours, I'd use them to do my own studies of additional topics I wasn't teaching.

I guess that's pretty much my point of view I'm expressing to you due to your dedication, respect, and point of view. Almost every day is Sabbath for me and has been for quite some time. I barely live by a calendar or a clock, haven't for decades, have to be reminded of the day or date periodically, have the ability to focus for hours upon hours on studies and have to be reminded to eat at times. I lived in a spot with beautiful views out the window and hardly ever looked outside favoring instead computer screens filled with His Word and tools to analyze and make study notes about it. I have sensed no need to consider one day as special. He's not had me focus on it. He's allotted me every day as special and shown me how messed up is the world and its ways and distracting routines and agendas. I've understood Paul's stated preference stated in PhilIippians1:23 for some time. This pales in comparison to what's ahead of us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Nor do I -- same for me. Most of this paragraph from you describes my life for some decades now. Virtually every day is set aside as holy. It's disturbing if I have to come out to do some routine necessity. I quit a profession to study then go to seminary. I was in the Text like a full-time job (of passion) for years. Then I taught for some period of time. Then I moved to go into full-time study without teaching for a while. Then I got pulled back into teaching and would put in anywhere from 10-60 hours in the Text in a week to prep for a 1.5-2hr class. If I had surplus hours, I'd use them to do my own studies of additional topics I wasn't teaching.

I guess that's pretty much my point of view I'm expressing to you due to your dedication, respect, and point of view. Almost every day is Sabbath for me and has been for quite some time. I barely live by a calendar or a clock, haven't for decades, have to be reminded of the day or date periodically, have the ability to focus for hours upon hours on studies and have to be reminded to eat at times. I lived in a spot with beautiful views out the window and hardly ever looked outside favoring instead computer screens filled with His Word and tools to analyze and make study notes about it. I have sensed no need to consider one day as special. He's not had me focus on it. He's allotted me every day as special and shown me how messed up is the world and its ways and distracting routines and agendas. I've understood Paul's stated preference stated in PhilIippians1:23 for some time. This pales in comparison to what's ahead of us.

I see your point, but God did not make every day the Sabbath, nor did He make everyday holy, only one. Exodus 20:8 Exodus 20:10 Genesis 2:1-3 If all days are alike it loses its specialness, which is not how God designed them Genesis 1, Exodus 20:9. That does not mean we don’t worship God daily, but spending a full 24 hours in spiritual rest with God would be tough to do 7 days a week, when we have laundry, gardening, working out, grocery shopping and some people have jobs etc.

Anyway, appreciate your perspective, I think on this topic I will leave it as we will have to agree to disagree, but typically agree with a lot of your posts.

 

[GDL]

I see your point, but God did not make every day the Sabbath, nor did He make everyday holy, only one. Exodus 20:8 Exodus 20:10 Genesis 2:1-3 If all days are alike it loses its specialness, which is not how God designed them Genesis 1, Exodus 20:9. That does not mean we don’t worship God daily, but spending a full 24 hours in spiritual rest with God would be tough to do 7 days a week, when we have laundry, gardening, working out, grocery shopping and some people have jobs etc.

Anyway, appreciate your perspective, I think on this topic I will leave it as we will have to agree to disagree, but typically agree with a lot of your posts.

Fully expected fully understood result. If I ever decide to take up the topic, I'll try to flag you. In the meantime, I'll leave the battles to you.