James 2:24 NOT by FAITH ALONE

[FaithAlone]

The non-Christian is saved when they first truly believe. After that, the by-product of this faith (New Testament works) immediately show. Without even trying, the nature of faith does produce works. They may not be on a grand scale but they are seen as a flood-light by the carnal people around them.

Amen Stinker(I never thought I would say that to you ) See my name? Salvation is by grace through faith alone. The works come naturally when you are a new creature in Christ. If you don't show the fruit of the Spirit and have no works then you might want to look at your conversion and make sure that you are really saved. Also, a person can have all of the good works in the world and still go to hell.

 

[FaithAlone]

Man is not justified by faith alone

Hmmm, the Bible seems to say otherwise: Read Romans 4

Why would anyone want to work if they were already saved?

"If you love Me you will keep My commandments."

That's why.

 

[HisKid1973]

We are known by our fruits.The regenerated life. If we totally committed our life to Christ. we can't help but change by the working of the Holy Spirit. Our salvation was bought and paid for. The realization of Christ in our lives enables us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling does not mean we have to work for our salvation. The working part is the battle of the flesh and the inner work of the Holy Spirit. This is the warring Paul speaks about in Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. YBIC..Kim

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

It means that you are not saved by works alone, nor are you saved by Faith alone. It is a joint relationship. It is not a contradiction, but rather two different parts of the Bible emphasizing two different sides of it.

Some great answers here!

And let us not forget about love; "Though you have have faith so as to move mountains, and have not love . . . . "

 

[tqpix]

Man is not justified by faith alone. Man is not justified by works alone. Man is justified by faith and works together.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Read the context; that's talking about working in accordance to the law of Moses. Whenever Paul talks about works, he's talking about works according to the law. One of the ways we know this, is because of his example of Abraham not being justified when circumcised, but rather, when uncircumcised (only the Old Testament requires circumcision).

James, on the other hand, is talking about works in general outside the law. We know this because of his example of how Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar; no where in the Pentateuch is there a commandment requiring you to offer your first-born son as a sacrifice.

 

[zaire]

Does that Roman Catholic church not teach the one most recieve baptismal regeneration before they are saved? This is a good work!

 

[CSMR]

Read the context; that's talking about working in accordance to the law of Moses. Whenever Paul talks about works, he's talking about works according to the law. One of the ways we know this, is because of his example of Abraham not being justified when circumcised, but rather, when uncircumcised (only the Old Testament requires circumcision).

James, on the other hand, is talking about works in general outside the law. We know this because of his example of how Abraham was justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar; no where in the Pentateuch is there a commandment requiring you to offer your first-born son as a sacrifice.

Certainly, he is talking about works of law, or works that are good according to the law. What is the other meaning of good works?

 

[tqpix]

Certainly, he is talking about works of law, or works that are good according to the law. What is the other meaning of good works?

Works that are outside the law (i.e. works according to the New Testament).

 

[Qoheleth]

Very conservative Confessional Lutherans still today don't regard James and these other books as "equal to" the other NT books.

Really?? I have not ever seen this.

The punishment and penalty of original sin, which God has imposed upon the children of Adam and upon original sin, are death, eternal damnation, and also other bodily and spiritual, temporal and eternal miseries, and the tyranny and dominion of the devil, so that human nature is subject to the kingdom of the devil and has been surrendered to the power of the devil, and is held captive under his away, who stupefies [fascinates] and leads astray many a great, learned man in the world by means of dreadful error, heresy, and other blindness, and otherwise rushes men into all sorts of crime.

Though the wording is typical Western, Orthodoxy believes these same issues. The East employs juridical and forensic language often, simply refer to the Liturgy.

By the way, no guilt implied here in the above statement.

None of the native Greek speakers (ancient or medieval) teach Sola Fide as Luther did. None of them teach justification as Luther did. Luther never freed himself from the predisposition towards a forensic understanding of justification that resulted from Augustine.

Luther was grossly misinterpreted also. Read "Theologia Germanica" (I know he didnt write it) and "On Christian Freedom" and tell me how much Luther doesnt sound "Eastern" or Holistic in his understanding of salvation being both event and process.

Q

 

[CSMR]

Works that are outside the law (i.e. works according to the New Testament).

So salvation does not come by the goodness of works according to the law. How does it come by - the goodness of works? - according to the new testament? "Works according to the new testament" doesn't really mean anything as yet. What are they and how do they save? is the question that has to be answered.

 

[constance]

Really?? I have not ever seen this.

Yep. I was pretty shocked too. I can ask the person who told me this (they are a member of this particular group) for the information. I will be away for a few days (I am going to the Medieval Congress in Kalamazoo to present a paper! Pray for me!!!) - if I don't take care of it on Monday please remind me.

Thanks,
Constance

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Man is not justified by faith alone

Hmmm, the Bible seems to say otherwise: Read Romans 4

Actually James 2:25 says "Man is not justified by faith alone"

Why would anyone want to work if they were already saved?

Because Jesus said "If you love Me you will keep My commandments."

God Bless.

 

[tqpix]

So salvation does not come by the goodness of works according to the law.

Correct.

How does it come by - the goodness of works? - according to the new testament? "Works according to the new testament" doesn't really mean anything as yet.

Salvation does not come by either faith or works alone, but by faith and works working together; this was what James was trying to get at. The works that has to be fused together with faith is not those according to the law, but those outside the law.

What are ["works according to the New Testament"] and how do they save? is the question that has to be answered.

"Works according the the New Testament" = Keeping the commandments in the New Testament.

How do they save? You're fulfilling the commandments of "Love thy God", "Love thy neighbour", and "Love thy enemies".

 

[Catholic Dude]

Here is a great example of "NOT by faith ALONE"
Jesus said:

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

You must act. People like Luther seem to be saying that all you have to do is say the magic words of "I believe" and your home free, thats not what Jesus ever intended for Christians, faith got you started, but more was required.

Faith alone, without works, justifies, frees, and saves. - On Christian Liberty

It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether. - Commentary on Galatians

Justification by faith is the centre of Luther's thinking, and the reason why a break with the church was necessary. The mixing of law and gospel according to Luther had cut out Christ.

Why does he insist on using the exact term "faith alone" when that is not what the Bible says? Second of all I thought Luther was a scholar? What kind of an outrageous statement is "more mischief" and "clouds", is he saying that were are all a buch of morons or something? Im not a theologian by any means, but to say that we should throw out something like that is simply crazy.
Also I hope you not saying here that breaking away from the one holy, catholic and apostolic Church was a good thing? When Luther did that he basically was saying you dont need the Church, only faith.
In 1Tim3 St Paul says:

14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, not the bible, not personal judgement, not encyclopedia britannica. The precious words and teachings of Christ were preserved by the Church.

Paul sais we are justified by faith alone; James said we are justified by works and not faith alone.
The possibilities are:
1. They contradict each other, and on the basis of the gospel, which is "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth", James is pronouned unapostolic - this was Luther's position.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1
2. James has a different meaning of faith in mind - clearly he does since he talks about the devils having faith because they believe in God - and does not contradict Paul. Still there is a question of what use James' meaning has, and whether he will tend to clarify or confuse the gospel. If you can interpret James as talking about the works that come from faith that would give his wriging apostolic character - the question is whether it is correct to do so.

Where does St Paul say "faith alone". Why did he go around and suffer so much and yell at people, and warn people if all they had to do was have faith alone?
Seeing how all Bibles have the Book of James, Luther had it way wrong...and with a slip on a basic building block like that how reliable is he on other issues concerning Christianity?
I dont get the Gal1 quote, are you saying that James was preaching a different Gospel?
Wow, after reading this I dont know what to say, there is only 2 valid options of the validity of James? James takes his position as an Apostle and rightly takes his place as one of the 27 in the NT Bible. I would never and have never questioned a NT book's authority.

...
Paul never taught against faith related works but taught them extensively through out his ministry:
...

I agree.

Yes, there has to be both. However, there is a significant difference between works as a sign of a healthy and living faith, and works as a means of attaining justification.
And why cant they be both a sign and means? Baptism and Communion are perfect examples. You must do both, and they are a means of attaining and a outward sign of faith.
....
James says that if someone breaks one part of the law, they have broken all of it. Works of the law included all possible good works (Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:34). How is it then possible for anyone who sins to find justification through a combination of works and faith?
I think your getting confused here (or else I am). How else would you find justification if there were no works or faith? There is both, and they work together. I dont know what else to say. There was only one perfect person, everyone else falls short, He never broke the Law. Does that mean we should not do good works? or that they hold no consequences?...just because we are not perfect?

...

The stuff about Abraham is that he was not gaining anything by works alone, that all they are saying. He started off with faith in the one true God, and backed up this faith with solid works.

It's impossible to read that interpretation into passages like Romans 4:3-5 and Genesis 15:6. Not only is it stated that it was faith that brought about justification, faith is sufficient to bring justification in a complete absence of works.
Here is what the passage says:

6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you from Ur of the Chalde'ans, to give you this land to possess." 8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" 9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon." 10 And he brought him all these,...

Look at the situation, Abram (as he was called then) would have been a nobody in the world, he could have done all the good in the world and that wouldnt have meant anything, but he wasnt a nobody for one simple reason...he believed in the One True God, and that was the first step of his greatness. But look in verse 8, Abram says "but...", did Abram lie when he believed if he would dare question God? God doesnt scorn Abram, but instead helps him along, and Abram ACTED on those instructions. What would have happened if Abram didnt act on those instructions? Would he still have been righteous?
Faith might only bring complete justification is certain situations, like someone who first heard of Christ on their deathbed and believed. Everyone else has to walk the walk.

why if faith was all they needed?

Why would such questions be asked of God? If He freely justified you and took away all of your sins so that you did not have to merit a single drop of righteousness, paying a debt you had no hope of paying, what grateful believer would question why we needed to do what He has commanded?
Becuase it isnt as easy a 123, it is easy enough for anyman to say yes to, but to live the life is tough work.

Additionally, asking why in light of my arguments doesn't refute what's been written. It begs the question.
I dont know what this means, is it too hard for a human to understand what God expects out of us? I know the Bible a hard book to understand, but we must strive to do what it says.

I dont understand how the Gal quotes fit in, especially the second.

In Galatians 3:3 Paul criticizes those who would start with faith and then add works to it as a means of justification, since faith was sufficient for that justification. Galatians 1:6-9 is saying that the addition of works to justification by faith alone is a false Gospel.
(see what was written about Abraham above)

(My new stuff in blue)


I will get to the other stuff ASAP.

 

[Beoga]

Paul sais we are justified by faith alone; James said we are justified by works and not faith alone.
The possibilities are:
1. They contradict each other, and on the basis of the gospel, which is "power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth", James is pronouned unapostolic - this was Luther's position.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." - Galatians 1

it should also be noted that it was not just Luther that expressed doubts about the book of James, Erasmus and Cardinal Cajetan, to name a couple, also expressed doubts.

 

[MbiaJc]

What is your take on this? The Bible clearly says you are not justified by faith alone, more over it says you are justified by works.

Why did people like Luther insist on "faith alone".

I don't know! However Aberham believed God and it was counted to him for rightousness. He did what God said to do and it justified him.

 

[CSMR]

"Works according the the New Testament" = Keeping the commandments in the New Testament.

How do they save? You're fulfilling the commandments of "Love thy God", "Love thy neighbour", and "Love thy enemies".

So in fact this is works of law. We are fulfilling the commandments - to God - that we should love God and our fellow men, which is the centre of the law, as Jesus said.

 

[tqpix]

So in fact this is works of law. We are fulfilling the commandments - to God - that we should love God and our fellow men, which is the centre of the law, as Jesus said.

But, in James' example of Abraham, Abraham was only justified by works when he offered his son on the altar. Now, how can this work be a work of the law? No where in the Pantateuch can one find a commandment requiring the sacrifice of one's first-born son.

Also, the commandments to love God and men was already given before the law was even put into place; these commandments are not exclusive to the law of Moses. There are scriptures in the New Testament that says these commandments were given to us since the beginning.

 

[CSMR]

Also, the commandments to love God and men was already given before the law was even put into place; these commandments are not exclusive to the law of Moses. There are scriptures in the New Testament that says these commandments were given to us since the beginning.

Don't you see how it "cut's out Christ" as Luther said to say we can be justified by obeying the commandments of God? How does righteousness come from God if we can obey God ourselves? When Paul says the law condemns us, was it only the Mosaic law - which you say does not even have the most important commandments (Jesus)? The command to love we can obey ourselves? Paul clearly stands against your definitions of law when he talks about the gentiles and the law written on their hearts. The command to love is the law, and if you say you have to accomplish it in order to be saved, then you are saying you have to do the whole law to be saved just as Paul says of the person who requires circumcision (Galatians 5). Moreover if you love God you will not sin, since love of God is to obey his commandments. Can you love, and become sinless? Is this the way of repentance that Christ taught? Is this the pearl of great price, to discover that we have to have full obedience of God in our hearts to be received by him?

Galatians 5: For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Note the last phrase: wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Righteousness is still an alien quality to us, which we do not have, but in the spirit we hope for it by faith. If we have this righteousness in us because we love, then we do not have to hope for it, do not need faith, and have no waiting to do.

Let us not boast that our nature has become good, but instead always come to God in repentance and through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

 

[Qoheleth]

Righteousness is still an alien quality to us, which we do not have, but in the spirit we hope for it by faith

Christ is our righteousness. We are not only declared righteous, but we are made righteous. He is in us, and we in him.

Q