Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin

[Defender of the Faith 777]

Arminian: "Election says that God chooses some to eternal separation from God!  That's not fair!"

Calvinist: "Election is the pure, sovereign grace of God to sinners who deserve to go to hell under the justice of God.  All people are doomed to eternal life, but God SAVES some through the death of His perfect Son!  THAT'S not fair!"

Both sides agree that all deserve eternal condemnation from God (Romans 3:23 and 6:23)

But what a Savior!  That "He who knew no sin,

became sin,

so that through Him, we might become the righteousness of God." (2 Corinthians 5:17)

Don't fret and worry over the number that will be condemned due to election.  Fact: They/We deserve it!  Think about how many also deserve the exact same fate, YET ARE SAVED!!  What Grace! 

"And because of our representation of sin in Adam, and also our own sin and corruption all men are continually falling short... and thus are under His sentence of death."

"But in accordance with His gracious elective purpose God is pleased to save His elect and to save them forever by Christ's atoning death in their behalf and in their stead, and by the Holy Spirit's application of the benefits of Christ's redeeming virtues to them.  And though the elect do assuredly believe in Christ to the saving of our souls,

we contribute NOTHING ULTIMATELY determinative of that salvation.  All that we bring into our salvation is the sin and moral pollution from which we need to be saved."

Robert L. Reymond (A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith) (I do understand election now, finally!)  (If God chooses some, then God must condemn others.  But God condemns others because they deserve it, and since we deserve it too, it's GRACE!)

 

[sola fide]

amen

 

[ZiSunka]

Arguing election/freewill has become like arguing about the chicken and the egg around here. It's a fight that wastes time, makes enemies of siblings-in-Christ, and can never be settled definitively to everyone's satisfaction.

So I say--forget about it! Don't waste another moment trying to prove the unprovable and get to work spreading the Good News instead.

 

[Reformationist]

DotF777,

I know you're quoting another's words here but thank you for posting them.  They are well said and encompass the fullness of the beauty of the doctrine of election.  I'm glad that you understand it now.

So I say--don't ever forget about it! Don't feel like you're wasting time trying to prove the unprovable.  God will bring all His people to a saving knowledge of Himself.  That is not to say that all who are saved will understand these doctrines.  Just continue to remember, it's not how well we understand the Gospel that obtains our salvation, rather it's God's elective, redemptive grace.  Thanks for spreading the Good News bro!

God bless,

Don

 

[Gabriel]

Good post!!

 

[Christopher Paul]

What makes these "elect" worthy of salvation?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
What makes these "elect" worthy of salvation?

Nothing!  It is of God's will alone. See Romans 9:11-16 to start.

 

[Christopher Paul]

Originally posted by Gabriel
Nothing!  It is of God's will alone. See Romans 9:11-16 to start.

So they are equally as evil as the condemned?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
So they are equally as evil as the condemned?

That's what I get out of it.  What did that passage mean to you?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

I'm glad too that I finally see the orthodox doctrine of election as it was intended from Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.

I have such an awe and reverence, of the sovereignty of God. And such a sudden gratefulness and humility. What an amazing doctrine!

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
I'm glad too that I finally see the orthodox doctrine of election as it was intended from Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.

I have such an awe and reverence, of the sovereignty of God. And such a sudden gratefulness and humility. What an amazing doctrine!

Same here.  I came to Christ when I was just a kid and was Arminian in belief until just a couple years ago when I began to study scripture on my own.  Before that, being in a Baptist church, I was only taught scripture that fit into their belief system.

Once the reformed faith became evident to me through study and visiting a different church (which became my home) I embraced it.  It is magnificent.

 

[Christopher Paul]

Originally posted by Defender of the Faith 777
I'm glad too that I finally see the orthodox doctrine of election as it was intended from Romans 8 & 9 and Ephesians 1.

I have such an awe and reverence, of the sovereignty of God. And such a sudden gratefulness and humility. What an amazing doctrine!

Would you feel the same way if you were not part of the elect?

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
Would you feel the same way if you were not part of the elect?

We wouldn't know or care.  That's the point we are trying to make.  if you are not elect, you have a heart of stone and no desire for God.

When you came to Christ was it like buying a vacuum?  You needed it so you figured, "What the heck, the sooner the better."  Or did you feel a stirring inside you, a love that began to grow for God that wasn't there before?

 

[Christopher Paul]

Originally posted by Gabriel
We wouldn't know or care.  That's the point we are trying to make.  if you are not elect, you have a heart of stone and no desire for God.

You wouldn't care if you were burning in Hell, through no fault of your own? 

When you came to Christ was it like buying a vacuum?  You needed it so you figured, "What the heck, the sooner the better."  Or did you feel a stirring inside you, a love that began to grow for God that wasn't there before?

What you are describing it God's grace, and yes, it happened like that, slow and steady.  We simply disagree, brother, on the degree and effects of His grace.  You see it as all consuming, whereas I see it as allowing me to make the right choices.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
You wouldn't care if you were burning in Hell, through no fault of your own?  You wouldn't have an opinion on this "amazing doctrine?"

"For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." 

"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

It is apparent to me that death or hell is what I deserve.  Read the first post again.  WE DESERVE DEATH (HELL).  By God's grace by his own good pleasure, He chose to save some of us. At the judgement we will ALL understand why.  And those condemned will understand that they are getting what they deserve.  And we will praise Him for choosing us.

I want to ask you, and not to flame or start a battle (you have been gracious and I enjoy conversing with you) but when we give scripture reference do you look it up, read it and ponder it's meaning?  For if you continue reading the passage in Romans you will see that when speaking of the potter and the clay and the different created vessels the message is pretty clear.  What does it mean to you?  I have asked you this very question and you don't address it.  When you read the scripture I give you to help you understand, what does it say to you?

The first step in any good bible study is to read the passage and ask yourself, "What is God trying to say by this choice of words and the context in which it is written?"  After that you may interject your application, but rqther than trying to conform the meaning to what you have been taught by men, try to see the scripture for what it is...God's word.  The bible is not a text book.  Unless you forget that I'm trying to convince you and you'r trying to prove me wrong and just read the text and try to see the message presented, we will do this until our heads pop off.

Feel free to answer the question I posed to you.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Christopher Paul
You wouldn't care if you were burning in Hell, through no fault of your own? 



What you are describing it God's grace, and yes, it happened like that, slow and steady.  We simply disagree, brother, on the degree and effects of His grace.  You see it as all consuming, whereas I see it as allowing me to make the right choices.

It seems we do agree.  I submit that without God's grace to prompt us, we would not choose Him.  It is allowing me to make the right choices.  Without Him, I would make the wrong ones.

"You see it as all consuming..."  Therefore since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.  For our God is a consuming fire.  Hebrews 12:28&29

 

[VOW]

To DOF:

Yes, ALL HAVE sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.

But then, John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

"WORLD" is a pretty big word, very all-encompassing. And it doesn't make a distinction between the Elect and the non-Elect.

WHOSOEVER, again, is all-encompassing. There are no qualifying words in that particular verse that state this everlasting life is only available to a few.

When Christians evangelize nonbelievers, John 3:16 is the herald they offer. I have NEVER seen any evangelization efforts which say: "Here is the answer to eternity. But be informed: only a few select will actually achieve it."

Perhaps it's time for some "truth in advertising"?



Peace,
~VOW

 

[Gabriel]

We are being truthful.  What I am saying and scripture reflects is that you won't believe unless the spirit takes your heart of stone and gives you a heart of flesh.  Ezekiel 11:19&20

Reference to the world is made to specify that salvation is available to Jew and Gentile, ALL nations, ALL races.

 

[VOW]

To Gabriel:

But what I'm hearing is that salvation is available to all...of the ELECT.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by VOW
To Gabriel:

But what I'm hearing is that salvation is available to all...of the ELECT.


Peace,
~VOW

Yes.