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I've got a question.What about music?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by InspectorVol, Jan 2, 2002.

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  1. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    Where I attend we don't have it nor believe in it. I heard a good sermon on this once, I wish I had a copy of it. It comes from the don't add nor take away from the bible.
    I haven't seen in the NT anywhere that says anything about instruments. Tell me what you think.
     
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  2. lucypevensie

    lucypevensie Not drinking the kool-aid Supporter

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    I guess I don't know what you mean. What do you mean you don't believe in it?
     


  3. There's nothing in the New Testament, or the Old Testament for that matter, about computers, or the internet, or automobiles, or airplanes. But we still use those, don't we?
     
  4. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    We don't believe in using instruments in our worship service.
     
  5. Rob

    Rob Regular Member

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    I personally would have a harder time worshiping without music. There is nothing like music to set the mood. The Church I attend is contemporary with a praise band and upbeat music. I did not attend church for about 15 years. Just prior to accepting and committing my life to Christ I would weep during the services during some of the songs. The music definately made a difference in the softening of my heart to allow me to surrender to Christ. There are many of us grafted into the vine of Christ. What works for some doesnt for others. I think that just makes Christs church stronger. Everyone should worship God in their own way. As long as the focus is on Christ and praising and pleasing God then its good.
     
  6. lucypevensie

    lucypevensie Not drinking the kool-aid Supporter

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    Married
    "We don't believe in using instruments in our worship service. "

    Oh, OK, I see....but...I don't understand why not. What is an instrument? It is anything you can use for any purpose you can imagine. Anything can be used for a musical instrument, from a saxophone to a flute to a cool whip container to a box of corn flakes. Anything can be an instrument, and you can use a true musical instrument for things other tham playing songs (you know, you could use a clarinet as a hammer or a drum for a wall decoration:) ). Could not a human voice be considered a musical instrument when used to sing praises? I guess I'm rambling, I could go on and on and on, but I'll spare everyone the boredom:)
     
  7. lizgal220

    lizgal220 New Member

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    There's something really funny about that logic that I can't put my finger on......proof by exclusion or some other fallacy. Just because it's left out, does that mean it's wrong????

    Jesus never said slavery was wrong nor right; does that make it okay? Jesus never said instrumental music was a lousy way to worship or a great way; does that mean you should chuck it out the window? You can build logical doctrine on both these subjects from the way He lived, spoke, and acted. Think about why God would or wouldn't want you to take certain kinds of actions. I can't imagine why God wouldn't like the sound of a piano played to honor Him.

    In my opinion, the Old Testament still has valuable examples, though we're no longer under the curse of the law. We still follow the 10 commands in exodus, we can still praise Him with songs and strings like in the Psalms.

    Personally, I've always felt closest to God's presence when in musical worship. But you shouldn't need it to feel close to God- worship is a lifestyle. It does add a quite a bit to your mindset, especially with the powerful lyrics of modern songs tho.

    By the way, what Denomination are you?

    also, in re: to adding and taking away from the bible, I found this helpful explanation by Josephus elsewhere on these boards in terms of the context of Rev. 22:19 ("it says if you add to the Bible you will be plagued.") That verse simply means adding to the words of the prophecy contained in Revelation. When Revelation was written, there was no bible as we know it today; so the context is merely for the prophecy and the book of Revelation itself.
     
  8. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    I belong to the Church of Christ. I also live in the Southern US if that helps shed any light on it for you.
    Regarding the slave illustration you used, yes Jesus gave us a commandment to love one another. If we did this there would not be nor would there have ever been slavery.
    The issue of not adding to nor taking away from the bible is stressed because we try to take what the bible says as it says it without adding our own ideas as best we can.
    I have seen the old testament verse that you quoted about music and evidently they used music then. What we do is since in the NT it only says "Speaking to yourselves in songs hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart." Notice it says only SPEAKING and this is why we don't use instruments in worship services.
    Regarding your last statement about that verse and it only pertaining to the book of Revelations I will have to study on.
     
  9. lizgal220

    lizgal220 New Member

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    My most pressing question is, I guess, why the exclusion of instruments from the NT means that they ought to be left out of everything. I would really like to see a break down of the Greek connotations in that NT reference (which is what book, btw?) before I made any judgment about "speaking." The way you listed that verse sounds as though there ought not to be any music in the service whatsoever, since it's all "to yourselves....in your heart."

    What I meant about slavery is though Jesus gave no specific word, you can logically build from his other teachings a good approach to it, by loving one another as you pointed out. I still can't imagine, based on the teachings of Jesus and even on that verse you quoted, why God would be offended by the sound of a piano played to honor Him.
     
  10. lisa03wilson

    lisa03wilson Guest

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    I think Music is a great way of worshiping because When I sing (and in doing so probably hurt everyone in the room's ears :) ) I feel closer to God, and It makes me happy because of what I am singing about. If singing isn't your thing, then that's ok, but I don't see anything biblcally wrong with it.

    In revelation 5:9&10 it says
    "And they sang a new song:
    'You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals
    because you were slain
    and with your blood you purchased men for God
    from every tribe and nation.
    you have made them to be a kingdom and preists to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth'"

    They people there are singing their praises to Jesus, and since they are singing a new song, that would imply that before they had been singing old songs.

    many of the psalms are written in song form, and were probably sung at one time. I actually know some songs that are simply a psalm set to music.

    Mary sang a song to God when she found out about Jesus.

    in Exodus 15 Moses and the Israelites sang their praises of God.

    so, about singing and music being wrong, I don't really see any fondation for that. If you don't like to sing in your worship, then you don't have to, but personally I think you're missing out.
     
  11. Just1ce4all

    Just1ce4all Guest

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    1Chronicles 15:16 David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals.


    This is scripture supporting the use of instruments. Using the arguement that since the NT never states the use of instruments so it must be wrong is an illogical and unreasonable arguement. I've heard people argue that the bible is false because it doesn't mention the dinosaurs. Who cares about dinosaurs anyway? If you wanna worship with instruments, all the more to ya. I can't stand worship without instruments, nor can I stand hymns. *shudders* But that doesn't make them wrong either.

    There is no biblical basis to say using instruments is wrong, and in fact biblically they were used. The NT, in reference to changing anything OT, is only talking about the laws, which if I'm not mistaken have nothing to do with praise and worship.
     
  12. Minton Miller

    Minton Miller Guest

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    Here is my take on this. Please keep in mind that I am a musician so you might have to take it with a grain of salt.

    First off, you are right that the new testament does not say anything about music. In my mind, that is because it was all well covered in the old testament and no need to rehash it. Please note that the new testament does NOT say anything against music in worship. I believe that if God had changed his mind about music in worship for the new covenent, he would have told us so.

    As for the old testament...


    Ps 33:1-4
    1 Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous; it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
    2 Praise the LORD with the harp; make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
    3 Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy.
    4 For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does.
    (NIV)

    This is just one of MANY such examples.

    In any case, do what works for you. Be true to your conviction.

    Rom 14:5-6
    5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
    6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.
    (NIV)

    If not having music in church is importent to you, then honor God by abstaining from music in his name.

    As for me... I love to make a joyful noise.
     
  13. lizgal220

    lizgal220 New Member

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    Minton Miller laid it out-- i think this is what i've been trying to mean:

     
  14. InspectorVol

    InspectorVol Regular Member

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    Christian



    Here are just the facts on the topic of the use of instrumental music in Old Testament and Christian worship. It will be seen that just the facts alone make a compelling case for the non-use of instrumental music in Christian worship.

    The primary and derived facts are listed (hopefully) without commentary.

    Fact #1 -- In the Old Testament, God asked for singing + instrumental music for use in worship (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). It was something they could be sure about.

    Fact #2 -- In the New Testament, God just asks for singing (Ephesians 5:19) or the "fruit of lips" (Hebrews 13:15). Hence, singing was something that the worshiper could absolutely be sure about.
    But because there is no clear directive from God on the use of instrumental music (as contrasted with the Old Testament), it is something that one can not absolutely be sure about.

    Fact #3 -- After the church came into being and for at least 400 or so years, God was given just what he asked for (singing). As a result, the word "a cappella" came into being and was the term for "music in the church style." The use of this term is the musical history of Christian worship in a nut-shell. ("A Cappella Singing," by Dr. William M. Green, Professor of classical languages, University of California, Berkeley; Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, by E. Ferguson, p629ff)

    Fact #4 -- Before the New Testament was completed, the church used the Old Testament scriptures as their primary source (Acts 17:11; 18:28, etc.). They had the very scriptures before them that approved and encouraged the use of instruments right down to the naming of specific types (2 Chronicles 29:25-26; Psalm 150). And at the time of the early church, instruments were available and many Christians had the talent to play them ... yet this talent was not exercised in worship! The Old Testament scripture was not followed.

    Fact #5 -- That instrumental music was absent from Christian worship during the days of the inspired Apostolic teaching (John 14:26; Acts 2: 42) proves that the Apostles, who were very familiar with the use of instruments in Temple worship, never encouraged churches to use them.
    The above also means that the Holy Spirit never encouraged churches to use instruments (John 14:26) in spite of the fact that it once did so in a direct way (2 Chronicles 29:25ff).

    Fact #6 -- Ephesians 5:19 has two parts: Singing + Making Melody. The "making melody" is translated from the Greek word "psallo." It means to "pluck or twang." The adverbial phrase that follows tells where this action takes place. It is "in the heart" and not on a harp. This fixes the locus of the "plucking" in a figurative sense. Note the contrast with the physical, Old Testament worship (McClintock and Strong's Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, p739; Thayer's Greek Lexicon on "psallo"; personal discussion with Dr. Adrian Herren).

    Fact #7 -- The design of the New Covenant worship will be different than that of the Old Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31; John 4:23; Hebrews 7:12; 10:1,10; 9:1). Many physical things of the Old pointed to their true substance in the New. For example, in the Old it was the priests that offered physical sacrifices to God, but in the New everyone is a priest with spiritual sacrifices to offer (1 Peter 2:5). It is specifically the "fruit of lips" that is the sacrifice of praise asked for (Hebrews 13:15) and not the sounds from man-made devices. (See Things Old and New in Religion, by Hoyt Bailey, for more examples.)


    CONCLUSIONS FROM THE FACTS

    Before doing a thing, it is proper to ask "Can we be sure that this is approved by God?"

    The facts show that we cannot be sure that God approves the use of instrumental music in worship. This makes it a "questionable" and "unsure" matter.

    However, the facts show that we can be absolutely sure that just singing has God's approval. All can agree upon this.

    The total context argues strongly that the non-use of the instrument is a matter of design (i.e., it was no accident that it was left out).

    APPLICATION

    Since God has had something to say in both Covenants about music in worship ...

    Unity, peace, and assurance are by-products when we practice just what God has asked for (singing).

    Division, debate, and torn conscience are the by-products of introducing things into worship that are "questionable" and "uncertain" (e.g., instrumental music).
    Therefore, common sense tells us that the use of instrumental music in worship is inadvisable in the least.

    An Example: The Restoration Movement was a unity effort. The plea was to limit teaching and practices to just what all could agree was a God-given directive and be silent about (not teach or practice) those things that were without direct evidence. For example, individuals may have an opinion that instrumental music would be accepted by God, but for the sake of unity would limit their practice to just doing what God clearly asked for--singing. And this worked until some began to push their opinion and division resulted. Usually most churches in the southern United States going by the name "Church of Christ" are still a cappella in practice while "Christian Churches" use the instrument.

    The above has not sought to pronounce any judgement upon those who use instrumental music, but instead to see if the total evidence for its use in Christian worship is positive or negative. It will be left to one's own conscience as to what to do in the face of the evidence.

    It is well to remember that when God specifies a path to follow, we should follow it with full faith in the superiority of God (Isaiah 55::cool: ... for it is not in man to direct his own steps (Jeremiah 10:23).



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


     
  15. Minton Miller

    Minton Miller Guest

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    Sounds like you answered your own question, at least as far as YOUR consience is concerned.

    I am not convinced that God really cares one way or another. Just be true to what God leads you and allow others to do the same. If you abstain from music in church, do it for the Lord. If you (like me) play music in church, do it for the Lord. Again that is my take on Romans 14:5-6

    You started this thread with a question and have now given the answer that works best for you in your walk with God :D
     
  16. savinggrc

    savinggrc Guest

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    There are indeed musical instruments mentioned in the NT.

    Look here:

    Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    The 24 elders are worshipping God and every single one of them has a harp. So worship + music is not bad to God.


     
  17. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    Is there something about music and musical instruments that prevents a person from acting with love.

    Musical instruments were used in the Old Testament as part of worship - that much is recorded.
    <font color=red>Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
    Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
    </font>
     
  18. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

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    <font color=green> A Capella originated with the Catholic Church in the 1500s. The current belief that musical instruments are unauthorized began with Alexander Campbell in the 1860s-70s. </font>

    These statements have been made - I am unable to trace anything that will confirm or deny their truth. However, I do have a vague recollection that the first, about a capella music is correct.

    The same is true of fact#5 stated earlier...I can't trace anything that will confirm or deny the claim.
     
  19. Optimus_P

    Optimus_P Super Umpa Lumpa

    585
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    man took me a while to read all the posts......

    lets keep in mind, In the NT it does not say do not sing/play music. Altho i have not read all of the OT yet (still reading) every referance to music/singing was always done in the Lords name, to praise him. I am sure if he did not want this to happen he would have said so. Even in Exodus Moses and all of Israel sang to the Lord (Exodus 15:1-18).

    Try to keep in mind that in man happyness and joy are found. It are usually spread/shared through music (instrumental / just singing)
     
  20. zamar

    zamar Guest

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    I find it interesting that David (The man that God called. A man after my own heart) Used an instrument in his worship of God. ( God must have received it)

    Also one of the OT words for praise is ZAMAR. It is defined as "to pluck the strings".

    Z
     
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