I've Failed At Diplomacy!!!!!

[stinsonmarri]

I must say that everyone of us, on this forum or not, should follow this advice. Thank you for your input stinsonmarri!

E.T.Elijah:

You are quite welcome. Keep me at my word ok because I've come a long way. If we want anyone to see what we write is right we must first act right! Actions do speaker louder than words!

Happy Sabbath and be bless,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Crib:

They knew who He was but refuse to accept how the Sabbath should be kept. Do you think when He came twice to the Temple and up set the scam that was going in His Father's house. Divine flash through humanity and they knew. The problem was they want Him to overthrow the Romans. They felt as people do today about the Jews that because they were choosen that made them better than everyone else. They even put a partition in the Temple between them and the Greeks (Gentiles). They were up front and the Greeks in the back how prejudice. Because Yashua did not preach what they wanted to hear that salvation was for all men they became delusional to believe a lie.

They also had paid Roman soldiers to watch the tomb because they knew He was going to rise. When the soldiers told them what happen their faces were sunken with Spiritual fear. But they listen to the devil and told the soldiers to spread a lie that the disciples came and took Him. Now how stupid was that whey the tomb was locked with a seal and they were there as well?

Remember the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath. Paul also said in Hebrew that "them," before the Jews was mixed with faith because they would not enter into Yahweh's rest that He gave from the beginning. Paul finish by saying if Yashua wanted to change Yahweh His Father's rest day He would have said so. Read Hebrew Chapter four. I had to comment my friend.

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[Cribstyl]

23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain.
24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him:
26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?”
27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”


Mark's gospel have a few details that are different about the same incident.

The fact that the disciples were hungry is not presented.
The Pharisees made the same accusation about His disciples.



will comment on this further.

 

[Cribstyl]

Crib:

They knew who He was but refuse to accept how the Sabbath should be kept.

Cant see that in the texts. The Pharisees perception was confirmed by Jesus when He claimed authority over it.

Do you think when He came twice to the Temple and up set the scam that was going in His Father's house. Divine flash through humanity and they knew. The problem was they want Him to overthrow the Romans.

The selling in the temple issue happened much later. You need to prove your supposition that the Jews thought Jesus was more than a rabbi.
In Chapter 11 shows even John the Baptist was not sure. Jesus also said only those whom He reveals it knows Him in Matt 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. [fn7]
27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

They felt as people do today about the Jews that because they were choosen that made them better than everyone else. They even put a partition in the Temple between them and the Greeks (Gentiles). They were up front and the Greeks in the back how prejudice. Because Yashua did not preach what they wanted to hear that salvation was for all men they became delusional to believe a lie.

They also had paid Roman soldiers to watch the tomb because they knew He was going to rise. When the soldiers told them what happen their faces were sunken with Spiritual fear. But they listen to the devil and told the soldiers to spread a lie that the disciples came and took Him. Now how stupid was that whey the tomb was locked with a seal and they were there as well?

Yeesh.... no comment.

Remember the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

Paul also said in Hebrew that "them," before the Jews was mixed with faith because they would not enter into Yahweh's rest that He gave from the beginning. Paul finish by saying if Yashua wanted to change Yahweh His Father's rest day He would have said so. Read Hebrew Chapter four. I had to comment my friend.

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

I think you're misunderstanding Heb 4. If "them" implies the Children of Israel you cant say "the beginning" means at creation.
Paul said no such thing.
I've read Heb4 a time or two.

forgive me.

 

[Cribstyl]

27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”


Why?
Jesus is giving a lesson to the Pharisees about why they should not condemn His disciples for picking corn on the Sabbath.

What does these two statement mean in context?

 

[Cribstyl]

27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”


Why?
Jesus is giving a lesson to the Pharisees about why they should not condemn His disciples for picking corn on the Sabbath.

What does these two statement mean in context?

"The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath" is a response to the Pharisees, who put the sabbath above the man as a means to condemn a man.

When you isolated this text as if Jesus was teaching about a creation sabbath it takes twisting of facts by confusing what is written in context.

I'm making 2 simple observations to keep focus on truth or error.

 

[Cribstyl]

27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”


Why?
Jesus is giving a lesson to the Pharisees about why they should not condemn His disciples for picking corn on the Sabbath.

What does these two statement mean in context?

I've been able to look at these text from many angles. It's not reasonable in my view that these texts should be isolated to teach sabbath from creation.

The fact that my SDA friend get unglued means that I'm treading on what their pioneer have established as truth.

 

[Cribstyl]

Exd 12:38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.


First off, we have to say with the scripture that a mix multitude left Egypt with the children of Israel, rather than trying to say that the Children of Israel were a mixed multitude. A slight change of what is written can lead to a false understnding.

The facts is, Ex 12 shows exactly what God required from anyone who was not the Children of Israel. Exd 12:48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


They were as strangers and not as the Children of Israel.

CRIB...... It appears that God allowed those who wanted to live among the Children of Israel to be as citizens of the land, but they were always regarded as strangers and foriegners.

We have to be careful not to currupt God's prophetic word. God promised Abraham that by His seed would all the nations of the world be blessed.

God's word estblishes distinction between the nations until the fulness of time.

There are many new testiment scriptures to show that even Christ's apostles considered nonJews unclean, and did not interact with them openly, until Peter and Paul recieved light from the Holy Spirit.

 

[visionary]

It's ugly to say "I come in peace" when I'm arguing all the time.
I have to admit the record shows that I need to mature in some areas.
My communication skillset needs work. (Lord Help me)

Out of respect to current an future members I will restrict myself to 3 threads from this date on.

I will post in this thread............
I will post and take on questions in Gentiles 101
I will also post in one thread in the discussion zone (TBD)

May the Lord bless you with the "peace that passes all understanding" and be given the "gift of discernment" from God on how to deal with the issues of faith with the "least in his kingdom".

 

[Stryder06]

Exd 12:38And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.


First off, we have to say with the scripture that a mix multitude left Egypt with the children of Israel rather than trying to say that the Children of Israel were a mixed multitude. It's easy to create or follow a false teaching.

I was not trying to create a false doctrine. I was simply trying to cut to the point that a Isrealites and others left Egypt together.

The facts is, Ex 12 shows exactly what God required from anyone who was not the Children of Israel. Exd 12:48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


They were as strangers and not as the Children of Israel.

Did you notice the part that says "...they shall be as one that is born in the land..."? And your response here didn't answer the question. When God gave the law to the people, did He exclude the mixed multitude?

 

[Cribstyl]

I was not trying to create a false doctrine. I was simply trying to cut to the point that a Isrealites and others left Egypt together.

I did not imply that you did Stryder. I was was impying that some people use that scripture to suggest that Israel's bloodline was mixed comming out of Egypt. Their first move is to abuse the text, then what they'll say next is foriegn to scriptures.

Did you notice the part that says "...they shall be as one that is born in the land..."? And your response here didn't answer the question. When God gave the law to the people, did He exclude the mixed multitude?

The answer is, they would become citizens of the land, not that they would become part of the children of Israel. For example, when Mexicans come to America (legally) the can become citizens, but they're still Mexicans because of their culture.

We should notice even in the law, God is addressing the COI, and all other people He is addressing as strangers, aliens and foriegners.

 

[Cribstyl]

In countless NT scriptures Jesus, Peter, John, Paul and others reviewed critical issues from Genesis account to reenforce what God intended and require from humanity.

Where can we find scriptures about sabbath commanded to Adam or humanity that would lead to death for breaking it?

Here are some scriptures reenforcing an issue about it taking at least two witnesses to establesh what someone did or said.

The point is, we dont have to add to God's word. Just post it and explain it.

Deu 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.


Deu 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.


Mat 18:16But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2Cr 13:1This [is] the third [time] I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Hbr 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


We should find clear reenforced scriptures for what we hold as church doctrines.

 

[Cribstyl]

In countless NT scriptures Jesus, Peter, John, Paul and others reviewed critical issues from Genesis account to reenforce what God intended and require from humanity.

Where can we find scriptures about sabbath commanded to Adam or humanity that would lead to death for breaking it?


My point is, we should find clear reenforced scriptures for what we hold as church doctrines.

The scripture are not confusing about when God gave the Law and the Sabbath. The confusion is how people can manipulate God's word with questions and reason. God's word does not change, READ IT AGAIN.
Prophets throughout the ages have reenforced what God have decreed.

Moses who wrote Geneses, made these statements and asked these question about the law. Those who disagree, please post any scriptures we can present in confidence that says that 'sabbath' or 'the law' was given to Adam?

Deu 4:7 For what nation [is there so] great, who [hath] God [so] nigh unto them, as the LORD our God [is] in all [things that] we call upon him [for]?
Deu 4:8 And what nation [is there so] great, that hath statutes and judgments [so] righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?



Deu 4:32¶For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and [ask] from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been [any such thing] as this great thing [is], or hath been heard like it?

Deu 4:33 Did [ever] people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?

Deu 4:34 Or hath God assayed to go [and] take him a nation from the midst of [another] nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?


Deu 4:44¶And this [is] the law which Moses set before the children of Israel:
Deu 4:45 These [are] the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which Moses spake unto the children of Israel, after they came forth out of Egypt,


Moses said much more to establish that the law and the covenant had not been given before given through Moses.

The fact that the sabbath was the sign of this covenant proves that no other nations could have been given the sabbath.

 

[Stryder06]

The answer is, they would become citizens of the land, not that they would become part of the children of Israel. For example, when Mexicans come to America (legally) the can become citizens, but they're still Mexicans because of their culture.

Mexican's would still be Mexican, but they'd be American citizens and would be obligated to keep the laws of the land would they not?

We should notice even in the law, God is addressing the COI, and all other people He is addressing as strangers, aliens and foriegners.

True, and the strangers that were with them were obligated to keep the law weren't they?

 

[Cribstyl]

Mexican's would still be Mexican, but they'd be American citizens and would be obligated to keep the laws of the land would they not?

That example was given to make the point that being citizen of the land did automatically not make the mixed multitude "The Children of Israel". It's no secret that whenever you're in the borders of another nation, their laws rule. The fact that God gave specific laws and instruction for both natives and strangers, show that God established distinction.

True, and the strangers that were with them were obligated to keep the law weren't they?

Yes, there was law for the strangers with them.

 

[Cribstyl]

From the beginning of the bible we see how the Serpent deceived Eve by using part truths and part lies.

He first spoke truth by saying.....

Gen 3:1 .....Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The Serpent lied by saying

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

My point is: God's word are spoken truths originated from His mouth. God's chosen Prophets were chosen from the Children of Israel. From the time that God sent His Son, the message has been the gospel.
Those who will cause you to "reason beyond" rather than to apply "God's word" to understanding can lead you away from what God has really said.

God in times past have chosen Prophets to reveal His words. God's words are not reasoned truths that will cause us to ignor or contradict the scriptures.

 

[Stryder06]

That example was given to make the point that being citizen of the land did automatically not make the mixed multitude "The Children of Israel". It's no secret that whenever you're in the borders of another nation, their laws rule. The fact that God gave specific laws and instruction for both natives and strangers, show that God established distinction.

True enough. But God also made provision for the stangers to become part of Israel.

Yes, there was law for the strangers with them.

What law was that? Were the strangers not required to keep the ten commandments?

 

[Cribstyl]

True enough. But God also made provision for the stangers to become part of Israel.

Truth is Stryder, we should first acknowledge the error told my many SDA. The Children of Israel was not implied as part of the mixed multitude. Careful read show how the scriptures establishes distinction between the COI and all people from other nations.

Exd 12:37¶And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
Exd 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.
600,000 COI men
plus mix multitude of other peoples.
flocks
Herds

What law was that? Were the strangers not required to keep the ten commandments?

There was a lot of issue to set in order for the first time ever after they left Egypt. There was no government except for Moses. As you know Moses father-in-law helped him to set up a government by putting captains over hundreds and so on. Stryder the progressive facts show when the law was given.

 

[Stryder06]

Truth is Stryder, we should first acknowledge the error told my many SDA. The Children of Israel was not implied as part of the mixed multitude. Careful read show how the scriptures establishes distinction between the COI and all people from other nations.

Exd 12:37¶And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot [that were] men, beside children.
Exd 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, [even] very much cattle.
600,000 COI men
plus mix multitude of other peoples.
flocks
Herds

I thought we covered this already?

There was a lot of issue to set in order for the first time ever after they left Egypt. There was no government except for Moses. As you know Moses father-in-law helped him to set up a government by putting captains over hundreds and so on. Stryder the progressive facts show when the law was given.

1st) This doesn't answer my question.
2nd) Moses said that he taught the people God's law. This was before Sinai. Was this law different from the law God spoke to Israel at Sinai?

 

[Cribstyl]

1st) This doesn't answer my question.


2nd) Moses said that he taught the people God's law. This was before Sinai. Was this law different from the law God spoke to Israel at Sinai?

1st your question was;
What law was that? Were the strangers not required to keep the ten commandments?

Answers: The strangers who sojourned with the COI was required to keep the ten commandments when it was given.

Your #2 Issue is the usual argument about where SDA will argue to no end that the words law means the ten commandments.

In my understnding in Ex 18 needs to be read and understood in context. Moses was settling disputes and establishing rules (statutes) going forward. He spent all day hearing each case and making righteous judgements. Yes, I agree that God was giving Moses direction and laws for the people to live by.