• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I've explored...

Status
Not open for further replies.

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste all,

i have zero confidence that this thread will remain open and/or that it will engender any serious consideration.

in any event... i've explored many facets of the Christian paradigm, explored many different view points and dialoged with seemingly knowledgeable Christians.

perhaps there is some area which i've overlooked which would, upon examination, allow me to see your religion in a positive light.. even encourage me to reconsider it's merits and it's potential benefits for a sentient being.

you can skip Sunday school 100-400 and move right into the advanced classes, if you'd care to. if, however, you'd rather focus on the basics of the tradition there is no reasonable way to prevent such from happening.

so there it is.

ETA: i use some non-English words in my posts, i assure you they aren't "devil talk" or "satan speech" or "black magic" or any of the myriad superstitions that Christians seem to have.

metta,

~v
 
Last edited:

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,593
52,505
Guam
✟5,127,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
perhaps there is some area which i've overlooked which would, upon examination, allow me to see your religion in a positive light..
Did you explore how that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us ---
Romans 5:8 said:
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
--- the Just for the unjust?
1 Peter 3:18 said:
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Um, I've read your post twice and I'm still not sure what your question or point is?

Namaste ebia,

thank you for the post.

mainly that i've explored your tradition and formed my conclusion. i am, however, quite ready to accept that i've overlooked some compelling bit of information which would change my mind.

i'm curious as to your thoughts regarding areas of your theology which i should look into more closely given that i have studied the basics of your tradition in some considerable depth.

nothing more sinister than that.

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste AV,

thank you for the post.

Did you explore how that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us ------ the Just for the unjust?

as that is one of the most basic tenets of the tradition, i have.

that is why, for instance, i suggested moving right past the Sunday school lessons and into the more advanced theological arguments and positions.

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,593
52,505
Guam
✟5,127,370.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
that is why, for instance, i suggested moving right past the Sunday school lessons and into the more advanced theological arguments and positions.
If you'd like to move out of Sunday School and go toe-to-toe with a KJVO, sola Scriptura, Independent Fundamental Baptist in the --- as you call it --- "advanced classes", just let me know. I'll show you plenty of areas you overlooked --- starting with Genesis 1.

If not, do like they say: If you can't play with the big dogs, stay on the porch --- ;)
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste AV,

thank you for the post.

i don't suppose that i can make my request more plain.

however, in my dialogs with you in the past you present your information as if there can be no disagreement and, if there is, you either claim that the being in disagreement doesn't understand your point or demonize them in some manner.

consequently, if you are not interested in discussing the information that you present you may as well withdraw from the conversation as i am not really keen on rehashing the same arguments. if you are interested in discussion for the areas that you feel are important then i'm all for it.

the ball, as they say, is in your court.

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0
R

RobinRedbreast

Guest
Mod Hat On

Hey guys, before posting a single post in this thread, please review both the CF rules and the Forum rules. Please remember to post completely 100% on-topic.

This is a reminder letter, not a thread closure. I have had to delete two messages already and it hasn't even gone past the first page.

For clarification, the OP's topic at hand is as follows: perhaps there is some area which i've overlooked which would, upon examination, allow me to see your religion in a positive light.. even encourage me to reconsider it's merits and it's potential benefits for a sentient being.

If I am mistaken, please correct me :)

If you cannot make a post abiding by the rules, don't post at all. :angel:

Mod Hat Off
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,789
3,167
Pennsylvania, USA
✟938,949.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Namaste AV,

thank you for the post.

i don't suppose that i can make my request more plain.

however, in my dialogs with you in the past you present your information as if there can be no disagreement and, if there is, you either claim that the being in disagreement doesn't understand your point or demonize them in some manner.

consequently, if you are not interested in discussing the information that you present you may as well withdraw from the conversation as i am not really keen on rehashing the same arguments. if you are interested in discussion for the areas that you feel are important then i'm all for it.

the ball, as they say, is in your court.

metta,

~v
How about this aspect of Orthodox Christian spirituality?: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis I am sorry that my time online is limited & I may not be able to respond immediately but will try if this concept is something you are looking for. I would like to add though, the Sunday school basics to love God & neighbor as ourself, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, Christ's atonement for our salvation, the virgin birth etc. underly anything else of a more spiritual nature. Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.
 
Upvote 0

Maranatha27

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2007
855
57
43
Massachusetts
✟24,011.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
vajradara,

Hi, how well versed are you in the Hebrew scripture? One thing that the Jewish and Christian scriptures have, that your text lacks is prophetic scripture. That is why I asked if you have any knowledge of the subject. Could you explain Daniels 70 week prophecy? I ask that specific prophecy, because it is the "backbone" of prophetic scripture. Let me know where you stand, and we will continue the conversation.

Maranatha

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste Lukaris,

thank you for the post. in truth my exploration of the Orthodox Christian traditions has been somewhat lacking... there aren't many around my part of the world to dialog with.


How about this aspect of Orthodox Christian spirituality?: http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis I am sorry that my time online is limited & I may not be able to respond immediately but will try if this concept is something you are looking for.

this is an interesting idea. i would have a few clarifying questions based on the material before i would be able to proffer my view upon it. initially, what is your view of Ireneous, in particular his ex-communication and what that means for the acceptance of his ideas within the normative Christian tradition.

I would like to add though, the Sunday school basics to love God & neighbor as ourself, the 10 commandments, the Beatitudes, Christ's atonement for our salvation, the virgin birth etc. underly anything else of a more spiritual nature. Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour.

well.. yes.. i'm aware of those ideas as they are, as we agree, the basics of the tradition. suffice it to say that many of those views are based upon axioms which i, not only do not share, but find nigh incomprehensible on some levels. as we say in my tradition, that is why i'm interested in breaking open the bones to get the marrow.

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste Maranatha,

thank you for the post.

vajradara,

Hi, how well versed are you in the Hebrew scripture?

i'm afraid that i speak no Hebrew unless there are some terms which have passed into the lingua franca of the United States English.

One thing that the Jewish and Christian scriptures have, that your text lacks is prophetic scripture. That is why I asked if you have any knowledge of the subject. Could you explain Daniels 70 week prophecy?

well.. i suppose that i could give it a go but then i'm not sure of what value that would be unless you are suggesting that Daniel 70 is an area which i've overlooked in my study of your tradition. if that is the case, perhaps it would facilitate our discussion if you could give me a general idea of why you deem it important and why it could be the sort of information that would change someones view of the Christian paradigm?

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

Maranatha27

Senior Member
Nov 1, 2007
855
57
43
Massachusetts
✟24,011.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
vajradara,

I have a love for the subject of prophecy. The Bible calls prophecy a lamp shinning in a dark place. It is the most ignored subject in the Bible, yet 1/4 of the Bible is prophetic in nature. Although to enter into these truths Suday School 100-400 is necessary. Just coasting through the class will not suffice, If Jesus is not Lord, I dont know if this will be of any profit. Although if you are a student of history it may be of some value. I have posted on this subject before so forgive me for the cut and paste.

Lets take a look at the "backbone" of biblical prophecy:


Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
[25] Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Lets start with verse 24. 70 weeks are are determined upon Daniels people, the Jewish people. The word translated weeks, in the Hebrew it is the word heptad. A heptad is a period of 7 years, it answers to our decade. That said 70 weeks or 70 7s of years is determined upon the Jewish people. Keeping it simple, the prophecy covers a period of 490 years.

In verse 25 a definite starting point is given. The starting point is the command to restore and build Jerusalem. The nation of Judah was in captivity. The three books in the Bible that answer to this period was Esther, Ezra and Nehemiah. In the book of Ezra a remnant is given permission by the Persian King Cyrus to lay the foundation of the temple of the Lord, this is not the starting point. The starting point of this prophecy is found in Nehemiah at a later date in Neh. chapter 2. A second remnant returned unto Jerusalem to rebuild the city. This is the starting point of the 70 7s

You will notice that the 70 weeks is broke into three sections in verse 25. 7 7's (49 years), 62 7's (434 years) and one week that consists of a 7 year period. The clock began with the decree and it took the remnant 49 years to rebuild the city of Jerusalem even in difficult times. The 434 year continued without hiatus. So 483 years after the decree the Jewish Messiah was strolling into Jerusalem on the colt of an ass, just as Zechariah stated


Zeck 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Although he was not welcomed as a King, as Daniel 9:26 makes that clear, He was killed, Yeshua spilt his blood. Now Zechariah a prophet to the remnant at this time, forsaw not of himself, but by the Holy Spirit the rejected King, and his second coming to the Jewish remnant in the last days

Zech 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends

Not to run on a tangent, but it is all conected. What about the last week of the prophecy? Has this last week already occured? The answer is No. When the Jews took part in the crucifixtion of the Lord Jesus Christ, God turned to the gentiles. David through the Holy Spirit uttered that in Psalm 22 in 1000 B.C.
that Christ would die.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet

When the Jews killed their Messiah, Yahweh set them to one side and began to gather out of the gentiles a bride for his Son. Has God rejected the Jews completly, the church has said for 19 centuries YES!

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of
grace

Many Jews have come to Christ as the Jewish Messiah and considered part of the remnant at a given time, but there is a specific remnant prophesied for the last days.
Well when is God going to take up his ancient people again. Well a week of that prophecy in Daniel 9 is still outstanding. Where can you find this week mention in the Bible? The last book of the Bible. Now this is a Jewish prophecy, so we have to use a Jewish calander, a Jewish year consisted of 360 days, not 365. 7 years of 360 days equals 2,520 days. vesre 27 of Daniel Chapter 9 speaks of a future peace contract with Israel, that will be for 7 years

The covenat as clearly seen in verse 27 with the beast from Rome (sorry Im trying to wrap this up, you'll have to look into that yourself) will be broken in the midpoint of the 7 years. Now starting in Rev Chapter 4. The events revealed to John are all dealing with a future period of 7 biblical years, up to chapter 19.

Rev 11: 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12: 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The times, time and a half of time is 3 1/2 years, the woman mentioned in this verse is Israel, Cf. Josephs dream in Gen 37.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,861
✟344,441.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
... what is your view of Ireneous, in particular his ex-communication and what that means for the acceptance of his ideas within the normative Christian tradition.

If you mean Saint Irenaeus, the second-century Christian writer, he wasn't excommunicated. :confused:

What aspects of his ideas interest you?
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,789
3,167
Pennsylvania, USA
✟938,949.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Vajradhara, Perhaps you may find some interest in studying the Malankara Orthodox Church (which is the Orthodox Church of India established by the apostle St. Thomas). http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/ May I also suggest you read an ancient catechism (ca. 100 AD) called the Didache which was a summation of the apostolic preaching of the New Testament of Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm which contains the Sunday school basics of the 10 commandments, Beatitudes, the golden rule, to love God, & our neighbor as ourself, the Eucharist, baptism, prayer, fasting, alms giving etc. The Bible was not yet compiled so a Biblical preaching had to be communicated (& most could not read or obtain books obviously). These represented the basic ancient Christian life and heresies like gnosticism sought to undrmine it; ancient theologians like St. Irenaeus fought them with preaching not violence. Hope this is helpful and God bless and peace to you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,197
21,423
Flatland
✟1,080,324.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
perhaps there is some area which i've overlooked which would, upon examination, allow me to see your religion in a positive light.. even encourage me to reconsider it's merits and it's potential benefits for a sentient being.

That’s kind of difficult because no one else really knows what you’ve looked at and what you might have overlooked. But as Lukaris said, the basics are the most important.

A Sunday School 101 lesson might be that there is one living God, creator of man and everything there is. Am I correct to suppose that as a Buddhist you are opposed to this idea? If so, that idea might be one to begin to discuss.

ETA: i use some non-English words in my posts, i assure you they aren't "devil talk" or "satan speech" or "black magic" or any of the myriad superstitions that Christians seem to have.

Because we believe in a God who rules the universe, Christians are opposed to superstition. But of course that doesn't prevent someone from saying something silly.
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
8,789
3,167
Pennsylvania, USA
✟938,949.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste Radagast,

thank you for the post.

If you mean Saint Irenaeus, the second-century Christian writer, he wasn't excommunicated. :confused:

What aspects of his ideas interest you?

my apologies.. i confused him with Tertullian.

with respect to his ideas vis a vis gnostic praxis given that the Valentinians disagreed with his exposition of their tradition how is it that his exposition has come to be agreed upon to be accurate?

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste maranatha,

thank you for the post.

Maranatha said:
I have a love for the subject of prophecy. The Bible calls prophecy a lamp shinning in a dark place. It is the most ignored subject in the Bible, yet 1/4 of the Bible is prophetic in nature. Although to enter into these truths Suday School 100-400 is necessary. Just coasting through the class will not suffice, If Jesus is not Lord, I dont know if this will be of any profit. Although if you are a student of history it may be of some value. I have posted on this subject before so forgive me for the cut and paste.

i assure you that i have a firm enough grasp of the basics of the Christian position to make sense of it ;) i have, after all, spent more than 5 years on this forum talking to Christians about these very things.

it's quite possible that none of them were very knowledgeable about their faith, i'm not in a position to make such a determination.

i would agree, of course, that without accepting the axioms of the Christian paradigm conclusions based on upon them don't have alot of meaning to me.

no worries about cut and paste :)

Lets take a look at the "backbone" of biblical prophecy

is this your view or do all Christians agree that this is the pillar, as it were, of prophecy in your tradition?

Lets start with verse 24. 70 weeks are are determined upon Daniels people, the Jewish people. The word translated weeks, in the Hebrew it is the word heptad. A heptad is a period of 7 years, it answers to our decade. That said 70 weeks or 70 7s of years is determined upon the Jewish people. Keeping it simple, the prophecy covers a period of 490 years.

is the heptad used because the Hebrews lacked Indian arithmetic?

Not to run on a tangent, but it is all conected. What about the last week of the prophecy? Has this last week already occured? The answer is No. When the Jews took part in the crucifixtion of the Lord Jesus Christ, God turned to the gentiles. David through the Holy Spirit uttered that in Psalm 22 in 1000 B.C. that Christ would die.

could you expound on your statement that the Jewish religious adherents took part in his execution? i.e. what did they do?

When the Jews killed their Messiah, Yahweh set them to one side and began to gather out of the gentiles a bride for his Son. Has God rejected the Jews completly, the church has said for 19 centuries YES!

you do realize, of course, that the Jewish people do not think that the Moahiach has arisen on this world system, yes?

more to the point, perhaps, is that in occupied Judea the only beings with the authority to condemn a criminal and put them to death was Rome, which you are aware of, yes?

The last book of the Bible. Now this is a Jewish prophecy, so we have to use a Jewish calander, a Jewish year consisted of 360 days, not 365. 7 years of 360 days equals 2,520 days. vesre 27 of Daniel Chapter 9 speaks of a future peace contract with Israel, that will be for 7 years

my understanding is that the Jewish calendar is based on lunar cycles not on solar cycles. do you have any information that would allow me to confirm your information?

The covenat as clearly seen in verse 27 with the beast from Rome (sorry Im trying to wrap this up, you'll have to look into that yourself) will be broken in the midpoint of the 7 years. Now starting in Rev Chapter 4. The events revealed to John are all dealing with a future period of 7 biblical years, up to chapter 19.

Rev 11: 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12: 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The times, time and a half of time is 3 1/2 years, the woman mentioned in this verse is Israel, Cf. Josephs dream in Gen 37.

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

so.. if i can sum up... in your view biblical prophecy is an area which would change a beings view of the Christian paradigm, is that correct?

whilst i can see how that may be so if one already held to some of the axioms which Christianity is based upon i do not see how this particular area of explication would be pursuasive otherwise.

i shall, however, investigate biblical prophecy and see what my search yields.

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0

vajradhara

Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom
Jun 25, 2003
9,403
466
57
Dharmadhatu
✟34,720.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Namaste Lukaris,

thank you for the post.
Vajradhara, Perhaps you may find some interest in studying the Malankara Orthodox Church (which is the Orthodox Church of India established by the apostle St. Thomas). http://malankaraorthodoxchurch.in/

thank you for the link :)

May I also suggest you read an ancient catechism (ca. 100 AD) called the Didache which was a summation of the apostolic preaching of the New Testament of Jesus Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm which contains the Sunday school basics of the 10 commandments, Beatitudes, the golden rule, to love God, & our neighbor as ourself, the Eucharist, baptism, prayer, fasting, alms giving etc.

i've read that particular document once or twice before but i'll read it again as i've not read it for well over 20 years..

metta,

~v
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.