Not really. Prayer is relationship with God but relationship with God also extends beyond prayer, so it is one facet of that relationship. I know I am speaking in a Catholic jargon. Since you were Catholic what was your basis of training in the faith?
I don't know if training is really an appropriate word to use truth be told. I mean I had 13 years of Catholic school but I hardly think that constitutes training.
Look...maybe I don't understand what you mean with the word 'relationship' in this context. Maybe explain that?
Maybe I can. As a former Catholic what is your understanding of the terms: Sanctifying Grace, Actual Grace, Sacrament, and Sacramental? Were you ever taught these terms?
Grace and sacrament are the only two terms that had regular use or that I was regularly exposed to. I will be honest the concept of 'grace' never seems to be described in anything like a coherent manner.
No, they would only be devoid of meaning if someone looked at them through the lens of scientism.
You know I've heard the word 'scientism' before and honestly I've found it to be a term largely used derisively and born of an utter misunderstanding of what may entail an atheist or secular position. But ignoring that I would say that the lens I looked at those terms through was the lens of
basic human conversation. Straight up. Like, whenever we generally talk about something being 'living' we mean that to be synonymous with 'alive', and whenever we generally talk about something being 'dead', we mean that to be synonymous in part with 'not alive'.
It's fine if those words have significant more nuance and pedantry behind them in this context but understand that you ought to lead in with the nuance and pedantry.
Many are alive but not alive in Christ. There is a difference. That difference lies, in part, in Sanctifying Grace. I suppose I could phrase it more specifically, but we are used to posting with a shared understanding here. I will keep that in mind in the rest of our posts.
You guys should drop the word 'alive' in these kind of contexts. It adds no additional useful information and seems to simply make things confusing based on the fact that in our day-to-day lives 'alive' has a lot of connotations that appear to not coincide with how the word 'alive' is being used here.
In such a way that those things help us increase our understanding of the other, we can loosely compare them. But it falls apart as a comparison after a bit. God has no need to understand me, He already does. You said you have looked at St. Thomas and his proofs. Then you should know about our view of the simplicity of God and He can not be reduced to the level of being as we understand it in creatures such as ourselves. But taking that into account we, as finite, have to discuss in terms we can grasp. Prayer helps us understand more about God by letting us understand the action of God on our hearts, the world, and others. It also helps us do so by engaging in trust. So our relationship is deepened. But it is not the same as we do it with another human being.
Okay - you're saying it helps. That is fine.
In what
way does it help? Like, how does prayer actually accomplish this increased understanding about god? It's not like you gain additional, new information or anything via the act of prayer. I'm sure it allows you to
focus your thoughts more or somesuch, and that your understanding of god
changes when you focus your thoughts, but in what way do you know that change in understanding
is better understanding?
And how exactly does this function as a means of 'engaging in trust'? Please explain that more. As in, trusting other people to pray when they say they will pray?
Our knowledge of God comes from Revelation (both pillars of Revelation in the Church: Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition). But it is not a direct grasping of nature that is shared and the knowledge that comes form that like we do with each other.
That honestly seems weird to me.
In this way you can not compare a cup of coffee with a human as the same as with God. My relationship with another human is empirically direct. It also has empathy and relation, creature to creature. My knowledge of a fellow member of a parish can grow and my relationship can grow by my direct understanding of their nature as an individual and as a being...and with our equality in creation. I can not do that with God in the same way. Not even in the Incarnation. The element of mystery and Gods own nature prevents a direct comparison like you put forward. Now, the Incarnation lets us understand some things, but at the same time the mystery of that Incarnation is constant and at a point we can not know.
Over coffee I can understand a member of the parish being to being. But my coffee time with God is prayer guided by what I can know form Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.
I think I do need you to explain what you mean with the word 'relationship' then. It honestly feels like you are describing two
different, unrelated things using the same word (in this case, 'relationship').
Right now I am prevented from
any comparison between a relationship between two sentient entities and a relationship between one sentient entity and god. Direct, indirect, or otherwise. I feel like I'm trying to compare apples with Buicks here. And if that's the case that is fine but I would seriously question use of the word 'relation' or 'relationship' when describing god. That doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.
To say pray for me is, in this case, the same as saying pray with me. The object is also praying.
So just to be clear, in this case,
pray for does
not mean the same as
pray on behalf of, correct?
I can work for my employer as he works next to me. I can work doing a task for a coworker to help them while they engage in the same task.
You can pray for anyone, if they want it or not. We do it all the time. You can pray by stating that you are joining yourself to the needs of the person most in need in the world. Or many other variations.
In this case, I assume you also do not mean
pray on behalf of when you use the phrase 'pray for anyone'. I think you mean
pray with anyone. Yes?
They may be praying with you or they may not. But prayer is not always an act of blessing yourself with a Sign of the Cross and engaging like picking up a phone. If someone is desiring toward God...in need, adoration, thanks...ect, they are praying. And we can, unknown to them be praying with the focus of their hearts.
This is getting really, really muddled right now. Sorry. Is prayer just 'thinking about someone or something in relationship to god'?
It bears mentioning that we have been looking, by default, at prayers of petition and related prayers of intercession. But when I talk about prayer and relationship and that relation I am also taking about all the other forms of prayer, not just petition. The OP sets out a petition, but that is only one kind of prayer. So when we talk about prayer (of any kind) we talk about all kinds at the same time. That might make it a little muddled until you understand. That may be why you see this as shifting back and forth. Because it is not smooth to divide all the different kinds of prayer from the concept of prayer without a shared vocabulary.
I've understood that there were different types of prayers like petition prayers or intercessory prayers. Could you describe what you mean by the word 'petition'? Because I feel like you've spent a lot of time telling me how JesusLovesOurLady's OP isn't a prayer of petition (e.g. a prayer making a specific request regarding what will or will not happen to JesusLovesOurLady) but now you're basically telling me that
is the type of prayer this is.
Yes this is getting incredibly muddled to me.
They types of prayer are generally seen as: Blessing and Adoration, Petition, Intercession, Praise, and Thanksgiving. But there are also methods of prayer not limited to...vocal, meditation, contemplation.
In this case the OP is making a prayer of petition, we are joining in prayers of intercession. Intercession is a form of petition but distinct enough theologically to have its own name.
I guess, maybe to take a few steps back to help unmuddle some things for me:
As you understand it, what is JesusLovesOurLady petitioning
for? Let's start there. I'm afraid that there is enough misunderstanding of language between us that we've got to simplify our discussion a bit.