I've committed spiritual suicide!

[JesusLovesOurLady]

You describe this as if you have no personal control over what you do or do not believe.

Of course not! I have no right to impose my own will on reality! No one does!

 

[icecreamassassin]

Of course not! I have no right to impose my own will on reality! No one does!

I'm not talking about anything about you imposing your own will on reality. I'm talking about your beliefs about reality.

I did not believe that you were describing reality conforming to your beliefs. What it sounded like you were describing was what you believe about free will was imposed on you independent of your own choosing in contrast to you yourself deciding what you believed about free will, that's all.

 

[Davidnic]

Just to point out you are vacillating back and forth between prayer being relationship and prayer being something different from relationship.

Not really. Prayer is relationship with God but relationship with God also extends beyond prayer, so it is one facet of that relationship. I know I am speaking in a Catholic jargon. Since you were Catholic what was your basis of training in the faith?

Could you better explain what it means to actualize grace?

Maybe I can. As a former Catholic what is your understanding of the terms: Sanctifying Grace, Actual Grace, Sacrament, and Sacramental? Were you ever taught these terms?

The words 'living' and 'dead' are devoid of any content and meaning with the way you've used them here. No big deal but honestly I find it very strange one would say that all, living and dead, are alive. It sounds a lot like saying all beverages, alcoholic and non-alcoholic, are alcoholic.

No, they would only be devoid of meaning if someone looked at them through the lens of scientism. Many are alive but not alive in Christ. There is a difference. That difference lies, in part, in Sanctifying Grace. I suppose I could phrase it more specifically, but we are used to posting with a shared understanding here. I will keep that in mind in the rest of our posts.

Do you think that if you sat down and had a cup of coffee with god that would also increase your relationship with god?

If you sat down and had a cup of coffee with a member of your parish do you think that would also increase your relationship with that person?

In such a way that those things help us increase our understanding of the other, we can loosely compare them. But it falls apart as a comparison after a bit. God has no need to understand me, He already does. You said you have looked at St. Thomas and his proofs. Then you should know about our view of the simplicity of God and He can not be reduced to the level of being as we understand it in creatures such as ourselves. But taking that into account we, as finite, have to discuss in terms we can grasp. Prayer helps us understand more about God by letting us understand the action of God on our hearts, the world, and others. It also helps us do so by engaging in trust. So our relationship is deepened. But it is not the same as we do it with another human being.

Our knowledge of God comes from Revelation (both pillars of Revelation in the Church: Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition). But it is not a direct grasping of nature that is shared and the knowledge that comes form that like we do with each other.

In this way you can not compare a cup of coffee with a human as the same as with God. My relationship with another human is empirically direct. It also has empathy and relation, creature to creature. My knowledge of a fellow member of a parish can grow and my relationship can grow by my direct understanding of their nature as an individual and as a being...and with our equality in creation. I can not do that with God in the same way. Not even in the Incarnation. The element of mystery and Gods own nature prevents a direct comparison like you put forward. Now, the Incarnation lets us understand some things, but at the same time the mystery of that Incarnation is constant and at a point we can not know.

Over coffee I can understand a member of the parish being to being. But my coffee time with God is prayer guided by what I can know form Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.

Okay, if I understand you right, then another way to reword JesusLovesOurLady's OP in a way that would still be the exact same sentiment as his original wording would be as follows:
I've gravely offended god this morning! I hope that I make it to confession this week, that I confess my sins well, with compuction and perfect contrition. And I hope that I make a firm resolve to sin no more.

Let's pray together.

Would that be considered the same thing as what JesusLovesOurLady was originally saying? I feel like it isn't but I'm not sure why. I think your use of the phrase "pray for" is making it harder for me to understand. Like...are you praying to someone (i.e. god) oh behalf of someone (i.e. the target in the word 'for' above like JesusLovesOurLady)?

Can one pray without any kind of either request involved or some manner of information disclosed? I guess...based on what you're saying, I guess I'd just a whole lot more requests of the nature "hey let's pray together so we grow closer to one another and god," certainly more in comparison to requests of the nature "hey I or someone else need some help let's pray."

To say pray for me is, in this case, the same as saying pray with me. The object is also praying. I can work for my employer as he works next to me. I can work doing a task for a coworker to help them while they engage in the same task.

You can pray for anyone, if they want it or not. We do it all the time. You can pray by stating that you are joining yourself to the needs of the person most in need in the world. Or many other variations.

They may be praying with you or they may not. But prayer is not always an act of blessing yourself with a Sign of the Cross and engaging like picking up a phone. If someone is desiring toward God...in need, adoration, thanks...ect, they are praying. And we can, unknown to them be praying with the focus of their hearts.

It bears mentioning that we have been looking, by default, at prayers of petition and related prayers of intercession. But when I talk about prayer and relationship and that relation I am also taking about all the other forms of prayer, not just petition. The OP sets out a petition, but that is only one kind of prayer. So when we talk about prayer (of any kind) we talk about all kinds at the same time. That might make it a little muddled until you understand. That may be why you see this as shifting back and forth. Because it is not smooth to divide all the different kinds of prayer from the concept of prayer without a shared vocabulary.

They types of prayer are generally seen as: Blessing and Adoration, Petition, Intercession, Praise, and Thanksgiving. But there are also methods of prayer not limited to...vocal, meditation, contemplation.

In this case the OP is making a prayer of petition, we are joining in prayers of intercession. Intercession is a form of petition but distinct enough theologically to have its own name.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Okay, if I understand you right, then another way to reword JesusLovesOurLady's OP in a way that would still be the exact same sentiment as his original wording would be as follows:
I've gravely offended god this morning! I hope that I make it to confession this week, that I confess my sins well, with compuction and perfect contrition. And I hope that I make a firm resolve to sin no more.

Let's pray together.

Would that be considered the same thing as what JesusLovesOurLady was originally saying? I feel like it isn't but I'm not sure why. I think your use of the phrase "pray for" is making it harder for me to understand. Like...are you praying to someone (i.e. god) oh behalf of someone (i.e. the target in the word 'for' above like JesusLovesOurLady)?

Can one pray without any kind of either request involved or some manner of information disclosed? I guess...based on what you're saying, I guess I'd just a whole lot more requests of the nature "hey let's pray together so we grow closer to one another and god," certainly more in comparison to requests of the nature "hey I or someone else need some help let's pray."

So when you ask someone to pray that you make it to confession...like, I still don't really understand this. Initially it seemed like you were asking people to ask god to 'do something' that would aid in you making it to confession (e.g. prevention of car crashes or somesuch that would prevent you from making it to confession). So that's not the case. But then I do not understand what you are asking for when you ask someone to pray that you make it to confession.

Certainly you're not trying to change god's mind, I get that. Certainly you're not trying to inform god about anything he doesn't already know about (e.g. your own intentions and motivations and your own desire to 'be better' or to 'stop sinning' or whatever else is in your heart).

Is your expectation that the more people that pray for you to make it to confession that you'll actually have a better chance of making it to confession compared to if people did not pray for you to make it to confession? Let's start there - is that an expectation on your part? If yes, please explain why you would think that to be the case. If no, can you better explain why you made your requests for prayer in this thread?


I've looked at that quite a lot and find it wholly unconvincing on many different levels.

Well, let me put it like this, when I sinned, I stopped living in conformity with God's will. I fell out of orbit with God, so to speak, now I didn't know far out of orbit I strayed. So I asked others to pray to ensure, I wasn't violently spinning off into the void. Prayer, in this analogy, is the gravity, that helps ensure, I get back into orbit with God. The purpose of prayer of petition helps us conform with God's will and stay in His metaphorical orbit.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Then I'd be interested in your input on my query to JesusLovesOurLady:
Is your expectation that the more people that pray for JesusLovesOurLady to make it to confession that he'll actually have a better chance of making it to confession compared to if people did not pray for JesusLovesOurLady to make it to confession? Let's start there - is that an expectation on your part? If yes, please explain why you would think that to be the case. If no, well I don't think you can read minds so you probably couldn't tell me why JesusLovesOurLady made this request.

I suspect JesusLovesOurLady thought that if someone prayed for him it would increase his chances. I suspect it did increase his chances. I don't know that there would be a linear relationship between the number of people praying for him and the outcome. Nor do I know the calculus of how exactly my prayer matters. I just suspect it does, and when asked I try to pray. It is my willing the good of another person. What would happen if I didn't bother to will their good? I don't know. I'd rather not find out.

At this juncture I'm not sure it really matters to my questions whether or not it's just god that hears prayer or if it's an entire fleet of entities. Perhaps it does but you'll have to explain it to me.

It looked like you had defined prayer as something only addressed to God. Just wanted you to have an accurate definition that would allow for the functioning of the communion of the saints.

It interests me that you are inquiring in a thread about the near spiritual suicide of another person. It could be said of you that you were a successful spiritual suicide. Do you recall what happened when you transitioned to being an atheist at what looks like the ripe old age of 25? How did you go from practicing Catholic to former believer? Some great aha moment or a moral issue or how did you get there?

 

[Davidnic]

Now we will have some parallel parking of this conversation so to speak...because we will have to feel out how each side uses terms and understand how those terms are being used. That is normally for a discussion of theology.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

Do you think that if you sat down and had a cup of coffee with god that would also increase your relationship with god?

If you sat down and had a cup of coffee with a member of your parish do you think that would also increase your relationship with that person?

Just as a quick side-note, I sort of did that the other day. Yesterday, in addition to confession, my parish was also offering Eucharistic Adoration, so I was sort of sitting down with God, but there was no coffee, and God was under the guise of a Matzo wafer. That kind of communication with God does increase your relationship with Him, exponentially, but it take a lot of practice and self-discipline, in order to do it right. You really need custody of the mind and imagination for a fruitful Adoration.

 

[icecreamassassin]

Not really. Prayer is relationship with God but relationship with God also extends beyond prayer, so it is one facet of that relationship. I know I am speaking in a Catholic jargon. Since you were Catholic what was your basis of training in the faith?

I don't know if training is really an appropriate word to use truth be told. I mean I had 13 years of Catholic school but I hardly think that constitutes training.

Look...maybe I don't understand what you mean with the word 'relationship' in this context. Maybe explain that?

Maybe I can. As a former Catholic what is your understanding of the terms: Sanctifying Grace, Actual Grace, Sacrament, and Sacramental? Were you ever taught these terms?

Grace and sacrament are the only two terms that had regular use or that I was regularly exposed to. I will be honest the concept of 'grace' never seems to be described in anything like a coherent manner.

No, they would only be devoid of meaning if someone looked at them through the lens of scientism.

You know I've heard the word 'scientism' before and honestly I've found it to be a term largely used derisively and born of an utter misunderstanding of what may entail an atheist or secular position. But ignoring that I would say that the lens I looked at those terms through was the lens of basic human conversation. Straight up. Like, whenever we generally talk about something being 'living' we mean that to be synonymous with 'alive', and whenever we generally talk about something being 'dead', we mean that to be synonymous in part with 'not alive'.

It's fine if those words have significant more nuance and pedantry behind them in this context but understand that you ought to lead in with the nuance and pedantry.

Many are alive but not alive in Christ. There is a difference. That difference lies, in part, in Sanctifying Grace. I suppose I could phrase it more specifically, but we are used to posting with a shared understanding here. I will keep that in mind in the rest of our posts.

You guys should drop the word 'alive' in these kind of contexts. It adds no additional useful information and seems to simply make things confusing based on the fact that in our day-to-day lives 'alive' has a lot of connotations that appear to not coincide with how the word 'alive' is being used here.

In such a way that those things help us increase our understanding of the other, we can loosely compare them. But it falls apart as a comparison after a bit. God has no need to understand me, He already does. You said you have looked at St. Thomas and his proofs. Then you should know about our view of the simplicity of God and He can not be reduced to the level of being as we understand it in creatures such as ourselves. But taking that into account we, as finite, have to discuss in terms we can grasp. Prayer helps us understand more about God by letting us understand the action of God on our hearts, the world, and others. It also helps us do so by engaging in trust. So our relationship is deepened. But it is not the same as we do it with another human being.

Okay - you're saying it helps. That is fine.

In what way does it help? Like, how does prayer actually accomplish this increased understanding about god? It's not like you gain additional, new information or anything via the act of prayer. I'm sure it allows you to focus your thoughts more or somesuch, and that your understanding of god changes when you focus your thoughts, but in what way do you know that change in understanding is better understanding?

And how exactly does this function as a means of 'engaging in trust'? Please explain that more. As in, trusting other people to pray when they say they will pray?

Our knowledge of God comes from Revelation (both pillars of Revelation in the Church: Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition). But it is not a direct grasping of nature that is shared and the knowledge that comes form that like we do with each other.

That honestly seems weird to me.

In this way you can not compare a cup of coffee with a human as the same as with God. My relationship with another human is empirically direct. It also has empathy and relation, creature to creature. My knowledge of a fellow member of a parish can grow and my relationship can grow by my direct understanding of their nature as an individual and as a being...and with our equality in creation. I can not do that with God in the same way. Not even in the Incarnation. The element of mystery and Gods own nature prevents a direct comparison like you put forward. Now, the Incarnation lets us understand some things, but at the same time the mystery of that Incarnation is constant and at a point we can not know.

Over coffee I can understand a member of the parish being to being. But my coffee time with God is prayer guided by what I can know form Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.

I think I do need you to explain what you mean with the word 'relationship' then. It honestly feels like you are describing two different, unrelated things using the same word (in this case, 'relationship').

Right now I am prevented from any comparison between a relationship between two sentient entities and a relationship between one sentient entity and god. Direct, indirect, or otherwise. I feel like I'm trying to compare apples with Buicks here. And if that's the case that is fine but I would seriously question use of the word 'relation' or 'relationship' when describing god. That doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.

To say pray for me is, in this case, the same as saying pray with me. The object is also praying.

So just to be clear, in this case, pray for does not mean the same as pray on behalf of, correct?

I can work for my employer as he works next to me. I can work doing a task for a coworker to help them while they engage in the same task.

You can pray for anyone, if they want it or not. We do it all the time. You can pray by stating that you are joining yourself to the needs of the person most in need in the world. Or many other variations.

In this case, I assume you also do not mean pray on behalf of when you use the phrase 'pray for anyone'. I think you mean pray with anyone. Yes?

They may be praying with you or they may not. But prayer is not always an act of blessing yourself with a Sign of the Cross and engaging like picking up a phone. If someone is desiring toward God...in need, adoration, thanks...ect, they are praying. And we can, unknown to them be praying with the focus of their hearts.

This is getting really, really muddled right now. Sorry. Is prayer just 'thinking about someone or something in relationship to god'?

It bears mentioning that we have been looking, by default, at prayers of petition and related prayers of intercession. But when I talk about prayer and relationship and that relation I am also taking about all the other forms of prayer, not just petition. The OP sets out a petition, but that is only one kind of prayer. So when we talk about prayer (of any kind) we talk about all kinds at the same time. That might make it a little muddled until you understand. That may be why you see this as shifting back and forth. Because it is not smooth to divide all the different kinds of prayer from the concept of prayer without a shared vocabulary.

I've understood that there were different types of prayers like petition prayers or intercessory prayers. Could you describe what you mean by the word 'petition'? Because I feel like you've spent a lot of time telling me how JesusLovesOurLady's OP isn't a prayer of petition (e.g. a prayer making a specific request regarding what will or will not happen to JesusLovesOurLady) but now you're basically telling me that is the type of prayer this is.

Yes this is getting incredibly muddled to me.

They types of prayer are generally seen as: Blessing and Adoration, Petition, Intercession, Praise, and Thanksgiving. But there are also methods of prayer not limited to...vocal, meditation, contemplation.

In this case the OP is making a prayer of petition, we are joining in prayers of intercession. Intercession is a form of petition but distinct enough theologically to have its own name.

I guess, maybe to take a few steps back to help unmuddle some things for me:
As you understand it, what is JesusLovesOurLady petitioning for? Let's start there. I'm afraid that there is enough misunderstanding of language between us that we've got to simplify our discussion a bit.

 

[icecreamassassin]

Just as a quick side-note, I sort of did that the other day. Yesterday, in addition to confession, my parish was also offering Eucharistic Adoration, so I was sort of sitting down with God, but there was no coffee, and God was under the guise of a Matzo wafer. That kind of communication with God does increase your relationship with Him, exponentially, but it take a lot of practice and self-discipline, in order to do it right. You really need custody of the mind and imagination for a fruitful Adoration.

@Davidnic , I think I may also need some clarification here. From your earlier post I feel like what JesusLovesOurLady is describing here is something that actually could not have happened. JesusLovesOurLady, as far as I can tell, is describing a form of direct communication and/or engagement with god that ought not be possible.

 

[icecreamassassin]

It interests me that you are inquiring in a thread about the near spiritual suicide of another person. It could be said of you that you were a successful spiritual suicide. Do you recall what happened when you transitioned to being an atheist at what looks like the ripe old age of 25? How did you go from practicing Catholic to former believer? Some great aha moment or a moral issue or how did you get there?

It wasn't a great a-ha moment.

The way I generally put it:
I wanted to take my religion more seriously, so I started digging more into it. That's when it fell apart for me.

 

[JesusLovesOurLady]

It wasn't a great a-ha moment.

The way I generally put it:
I wanted to take my religion more seriously, so I started digging more into it. That's when it fell apart for me.

Sounds like the opposite of what happened to me! I fell away from the Faith for a bit, and became a Deist. But when I started looking at the faith seriously, seeing the Faith as it truly is, and not what I wanted it to be, it became clear to me that is real! This how you live in conformity with reality!

 

[Davidnic]

I don't know if training is really an appropriate word to use truth be told. I mean I had 13 years of Catholic school but I hardly think that constitutes training.

Not all Catholic schools are equal. Some do a really good job of instilling who God is and what Catholic believe, some talk at people and do not impart the real structure of what we believe.

Look...maybe I don't understand what you mean with the word 'relationship' in this context. Maybe explain that?

Relationship as in our connection to someone else. Also the whole structure of our existence in relation to them.

Grace and sacrament are the only two terms that had regular use or that I was regularly exposed to. I will be honest the concept of 'grace' never seems to be described in anything like a coherent manner.

So you were never, that you remember really exposed to the difference between Sanctifying Grace and Actual Grace, or a Sacrament opposed to a Sacramental. And if you were it was likely in a shoot it at the students but do not really make it part of their understanding or vocabulary. Is that a fair assessment?

You know I've heard the word 'scientism' before and honestly I've found it to be a term largely used derisively and born of an utter misunderstanding of what may entail an atheist or secular position. But ignoring that I would say that the lens I looked at those terms through was the lens of basic human conversation. Straight up. Like, whenever we generally talk about something being 'living' we mean that to be synonymous with 'alive', and whenever we generally talk about something being 'dead', we mean that to be synonymous in part with 'not alive'.

But that is not how it has been used in religion for thousands of years in all contexts. Most faiths with a concept of an afterlife have drawn a distinction between physical and spiritual life and physical and spiritual death and the coexistence of those things at various times.

You guys should drop the word 'alive' in these kind of contexts. It adds no additional useful information and seems to simply make things confusing based on the fact that in our day-to-day lives 'alive' has a lot of connotations that appear to not coincide with how the word 'alive' is being used here.

I can use it more specifically and with clarification but in almost all theological conversations and for thousands of years what has been said is acceptable usage.

Okay - you're saying it helps. That is fine.

In what way does it help? Like, how does prayer actually accomplish this increased understanding about god? It's not like you gain additional, new information or anything via the act of prayer. I'm sure it allows you to focus your thoughts more or somesuch, and that your understanding of god changes when you focus your thoughts, but in what way do you know that change in understanding is better understanding?

And how exactly does this function as a means of 'engaging in trust'? Please explain that more. As in, trusting other people to pray when they say they will pray?

Sometimes people do gain more understanding. They gain some understanding of Gods will. Of how He is acting in our lives. It is not that our understanding of God changes...it is that our understanding can be enlightened. There is an element of faith here. How do we know it is for the better? That would depend on the situation.

That honestly seems weird to me.

Well yes, the things of God are not worldly. Faith is weird. That is not a bad thing, but something larger that the world would be weird from the context of within it. I believe there was just a thread on an article about that concept.

I think I do need you to explain what you mean with the word 'relationship' then. It honestly feels like you are describing two different, unrelated things using the same word (in this case, 'relationship').

See above. We can, in a limited sense compare it to the relationship to another human. Some, poetically, do. But there is an inherent difference in the fact that God is not just a big being...He is the source and cause of all being. So there is a point where we can not understand Him in the way we do a person. You hit and area here where those who have deeply experienced prayer and those who have not, hit a kind of divide where words do not explain things perfectly. It is where the worlds idea of prayer as asking a larger power for favors and the Christian concept as prayer as an entering into a joining with God come into conflict. This was one of the radical differences between the Christian worldview and the Pagan one at the time of the founding of our faith. This is why they seem as different unrelated things to you.

Right now I am prevented from any comparison between a relationship between two sentient entities and a relationship between one sentient entity and god. Direct, indirect, or otherwise. I feel like I'm trying to compare apples with Buicks here. And if that's the case that is fine but I would seriously question use of the word 'relation' or 'relationship' when describing god. That doesn't seem to be what you're talking about.

Well you can make a comparison but it only goes so far. That is the point of metaphor after all...it is not a perfect tool. I am not saying such attempts are empty of all promise. But they are limited. It is, as I said, possible to loosely compare them as long as you mind where it falls apart. Christ used metaphor and parables for out benefit. But we always have to be mindful of the limits where it ceases to clarify and begins to make God in our Image and make a god that is not.

So just to be clear, in this case, pray for does not mean the same as pray on behalf of, correct?

We do not pray in their place. We pray in union for their intentions.

In this case, I assume you also do not mean pray on behalf of when you use the phrase 'pray for anyone'. I think you mean pray with anyone. Yes?

For, as in suiting the purposes or needs of a person or group. Also to gain or acquire in relation to their intentions. Basically variants on Websters definition 1 (indicating purpose or intended goal) rather than definition 5 (on behalf of).

It can also be used as in we pray for their good or their intention that they or the intention are benefited. Now for us that benefit is what every Gods will is. And we trust in that will, that it is good deepest sense of the word. Not just the Christian sense, but the Plato in the Gorgias dialogue, Boethieus and his Consolation of Philosophy nature of good. Which all reflect the Christian view actually. Have you read either Gorgias or the The Consolation of Philosophy in your search for Truth?

This is getting really, really muddled right now. Sorry. Is prayer just 'thinking about someone or something in relationship to god'?

No it is not just or only that. Although that can be an aspect of it. But it would only be a very superficial starting point.

I've understood that there were different types of prayers like petition prayers or intercessory prayers. Could you describe what you mean by the word 'petition'? Because I feel like you've spent a lot of time telling me how JesusLovesOurLady's OP isn't a prayer of petition (e.g. a prayer making a specific request regarding what will or will not happen to JesusLovesOurLady) but now you're basically telling me that is the type of prayer this is.

He is petitioning. But it is not that God is the magical answer machine. But that God will give us what is Good. The trust that being all Good...He will act according to His nature and plan.

But it is not an attempt to say that enough words or that God serves us by answering how we want. When we petition God it always has the context that Christ showed us...Your will not mine be done. So in that way it is not like a petition to a government or someone we are trying to convince. We know God knows. We know God will act in a way that is Good. But we are not fatalists who just say...well then prayer is useless since God is going to do as He does. We trust in His Love. And perhaps He is using the situation to turn our hearts in trust to Him.

Again, analogy and metaphor only go so far. But Christ used parables for a reason. I am going to feed my children. I am not going to let them starve. But I am also going to teach them to ask, say please, and all the other things that define our connection. It teaches them trust and confidence in the love of their parents.

Now...my children also ask for things that they should not have or that I would love for them to have but it is better that they not have because it fits the purpose and needs of the family. They ask in trust but they also have to accept no in the same trust.

Again this only goes so far, but Christ did use the parent/child metaphor for asking things of God. So it is a petition but not a petition in the way some paint prayer as being.

I guess, maybe to take a few steps back to help unmuddle some things for me:
As you understand it, what is JesusLovesOurLady petitioning for? Let's start there. I'm afraid that there is enough misunderstanding of language between us that we've got to simplify our discussion a bit.

He is asking for the strength to make a good confession, live a proper life and continue doing that whenever there is (like there was recently) a stumble.

 

[Davidnic]

@Davidnic , I think I may also need some clarification here. From your earlier post I feel like what JesusLovesOurLady is describing here is something that actually could not have happened. JesusLovesOurLady, as far as I can tell, is describing a form of direct communication and/or engagement with god that ought not be possible.

We can have the mystical feeling that we enter into a union with God. Particularly in the Adoration of the Eucharist, and those kinds of prayers. There is a difference between knowing and defining. We can never fully know God even as much as we can know another creature. But He does reveal Himself and we have a limited ability to grasp that revelation. Again this is very much guided by the sources of Revelation kept by the Church. It also ties into what we call the Image of God in every person. That helps us united faith and reason. But it is not the same as how I know another creature. We can use metaphor and poetry to do some explaining. But we have to be aware we are limited. Also remember even another created creature there is a point in knowing that I have to take a leap of faith in what I know about them at the deepest level. Being is knowable, God is not a being...He is being itself. So we can grasp rational structure and understand things because of intelligibility. But we can not know God as we know someone else and by the same methods. Some apply, but many do not and lead to error. Think of Plato and leaving the cave then explaining to those back in the cave what is outside.