Ivanka Criticizes Green New Deal: "People Want to Work for What they Get"

cow451

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I think you missed a post or two. I did not say working hard is "bad behavior".
You said:
“.... it doesn't take much skill to pick sweet potatoes and clean houses or serve food.
Again the rewarding bad behavior is only an incentive to continue the bad behavior.”
 
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BigDaddy4

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That wasn't the argument. The argument is that we all have the SAME opportunity to accomplish a particular thing, such as becoming a notable computer scientist. We do not have the same opportunity at all.

Of course we all have some opportunity to improve ourselves in SOMETHING, but an impoverished person having opportunity to improve in doing push ups isn't at all the SAME opportunity as a well off person being able to improve their ability in piloting a private airplane.

A student having an opportunity to go to a public library and get math help for a few minutes of watching a YouTube video is not the SAME opportunity as a person who is able to spend hours everyday for free in up-to-date research lab with super-computers chock full of all the right development and mathematical software in order to BECOME (not research a career path) a noted computer scientist.

I don't see how you can even remotely view this as any sort of equal comparison of opportunity, even in this century. If I'm born rich and you're born poor, then my opportunities are going to be VASTLY greater than yours simply by my fortune of birth.
Lol. I guess you are going to just keep introducing stuff to try and prove your point. It seems for you that the only way to become a "noted computer scientist" is to be "able to spend hours everyday for free in up-to-date research lab with super-computers chock full of all the right development and mathematical software" because their mom worked in the lab. Please show us some noted computer scientists who did that. Or that it's part of the job description. Then you might have some credibility in your argument.
 
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New Birth

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You said:
“.... it doesn't take much skill to pick sweet potatoes and clean houses or serve food.
Again the rewarding bad behavior is only an incentive to continue the bad behavior.”
Again I think you missed the point. I was not saying that picking sweet potatoes and cleaning houses is bad behavior. rewarding bad behavior refers to rewarding criminals that get out of prison with government subsidies. God back and read the posts.
 
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bekkilyn

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Lol. I guess you are going to just keep introducing stuff to try and prove your point. It seems for you that the only way to become a "noted computer scientist" is to be "able to spend hours everyday for free in up-to-date research lab with super-computers chock full of all the right development and mathematical software" because their mom worked in the lab. Please show us some noted computer scientists who did that. Or that it's part of the job description. Then you might have some credibility in your argument.

No one said anything about any of these examples becoming the ONLY way anyone could become a noted computer scientist. The point is that someone who has more advantages is going to have a much easier and faster time of it while someone with no advantages may never be able accomplish it at all (no matter how many YouTube videos he or she may watch.)

So you SINCERELY believe (and are not just being obtuse or trying to argue) that someone who is limited to using a regular (and probably 5 to 10 year old) PC computer with maybe Microsoft Office on it and a PDF reader has the exact SAME opportunity to become a noted computer scientist as someone who has free and unlimited usage of an up-to-date computer lab with super computers loaded with all the necessary software in a research university?

To think that you think that the above scenario represents equal opportunity for people is baffling at best, but does help to explain how some seem to have the mindset that being poor and/or disadvantaged is simply a matter of being lazy and that no disadvantages actually exist.
 
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Hammster

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My apologies.
I never said or implied that. It just appears that there is a touch of vitriol when you respond to me, so I was just wanting to give you a chance to discuss it. If that’s not the case, then we will just carry on.
 
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FenderTL5

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Shades of “OH MY [deity]…SOCIALISM!”
"This country has socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor."
- MLK -
 
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bekkilyn

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Again I think you missed the point. I was not saying that picking sweet potatoes and cleaning houses is bad behavior. rewarding bad behavior refers to rewarding criminals that get out of prison with government subsidies. God back and read the posts.

Think of it this way then. It may seem unfair to "reward bad behavior" by giving former prisoners (who are no longer considered criminals by the way since they've paid their dues) a government subsidy, but what is the cost to the general public for not doing it? Chances are very good that these former felons will end up going right back to their former criminal life because it is the only way they are able to make a living if no one will give them a job or any help in turning their lives around.

Now I would agree that *just* giving them a government subsidy and leaving them to fend for themselves would not be enough in many cases because they are still going to have a very difficult time getting a job or learning the necessarily skills for re-integration with the general population. However, preventing these people from returning to their criminal way of life is of great benefit to the rest of us and much less costly since not only would we have less victims of their crimes, we wouldn't need to continue to pay for their upkeep in prison.

See, we're already subsidizing either way, but only one of those two ways is of real benefit to the former prisoner *and* for the non-criminal population he or she is returning to.
 
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Belk

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Again I think you missed the point. I was not saying that picking sweet potatoes and cleaning houses is bad behavior. rewarding bad behavior refers to rewarding criminals that get out of prison with government subsidies. God back and read the posts.

Isn't getting out of prison and leading a reformed life what we want them to do?
 
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cow451

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Again I think you missed the point. I was not saying that picking sweet potatoes and cleaning houses is bad behavior. rewarding bad behavior refers to rewarding criminals that get out of prison with government subsidies. God back and read the posts.
You may want to be more clear in the future.
 
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BigDaddy4

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No one said anything about any of these examples becoming the ONLY way anyone could become a noted computer scientist. The point is that someone who has more advantages is going to have a much easier and faster time of it while someone with no advantages may never be able accomplish it at all (no matter how many YouTube videos he or she may watch.)

So you SINCERELY believe (and are not just being obtuse or trying to argue) that someone who is limited to using a regular (and probably 5 to 10 year old) PC computer with maybe Microsoft Office on it and a PDF reader has the exact SAME opportunity to become a noted computer scientist as someone who has free and unlimited usage of an up-to-date computer lab with super computers loaded with all the necessary software in a research university?

To think that you think that the above scenario represents equal opportunity for people is baffling at best, but does help to explain how some seem to have the mindset that being poor and/or disadvantaged is simply a matter of being lazy and that no disadvantages actually exist.
Let's do this. I want to become a noted computer scientist. I could do a Google search on a free computer at my local library. Here's the first hit (although not on a free library computer):
The 30 Most Influential Computer Scientists Alive TodayComputer Science Degree Hub
30 of the most brilliant men and women in the industry. What did they do to get there? I'd research their backgrounds, to which I might find they learned computer code, tinkered with computers in their dorm rooms in college, one even made a computer out of old TVs.

So what in the world is the advantage of having all the "free and unlimited usage of an up-to-date computer lab with super computers loaded with all the necessary software in a research university"? These "noted computer scientists" were the ones making the code that your super computers are loaded with in your research universities.

Also on the first page of my Google search are at least 6 links to lecture notes on Computer Science. Wait! What? I'm not even enrolled in a class and I can see lecture notes from a Stanford University "Foundations of Computer Science" class?! Tell me more! Ok, here's more - there are not 1, but 2 lecture note links to computer science classes at MIT.

So, please. Don't tell me the opportunity isn't there and that being in some supercomputer lab because you mom works there gives one a distinct advantage. Your position fails on 2 important points:

1. To be a "noted computer scientist" (like those in the link above), one must learn the language. Which means one must get educated, which means going to school, which I can find one online (at the library) and the requirements to get in. Which means once accepted, one also gets to use the super duper computer lab that the other guy's mother works in. Same opportunity, different path. No advantage there.

2. Most importantly, one has to have a certain aptitude for it. The person with the mom who works in the computer lab may not have the same aptitude for computer science as the person doing research at the library. Aptitude depends on the individual. Just because one wants to be a "noted computer scientist" doesn't mean they will become one, regardless of whatever perceived advantages they may have.
 
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bekkilyn

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Let's do this. I want to become a noted computer scientist. I could do a Google search on a free computer at my local library. Here's the first hit (although not on a free library computer):
The 30 Most Influential Computer Scientists Alive TodayComputer Science Degree Hub
30 of the most brilliant men and women in the industry. What did they do to get there? I'd research their backgrounds, to which I might find they learned computer code, tinkered with computers in their dorm rooms in college, one even made a computer out of old TVs.

So the person who was born with all the advantages already did all of this long before ever going to college because they had all of these things at home. The impoverished person only has the public library computer to find out about it and so never got to do any tinkering. The advantaged person already is a few years ahead along with some actual practical experience.

How is this the SAME opportunity?

So what in the world is the advantage of having all the "free and unlimited usage of an up-to-date computer lab with super computers loaded with all the necessary software in a research university"? These "noted computer scientists" were the ones making the code that your super computers are loaded with in your research universities.

And this advantaged person is already on the path of making new code for the next wave of super-computing while disadvantaged person is still googling information in the public library, still unable to do anything practical.

How is this the SAME opportunity?

Also on the first page of my Google search are at least 6 links to lecture notes on Computer Science. Wait! What? I'm not even enrolled in a class and I can see lecture notes from a Stanford University "Foundations of Computer Science" class?! Tell me more! Ok, here's more - there are not 1, but 2 lecture note links to computer science classes at MIT.

So advantaged person is already able to talk to his or her computer scientist peers at the university where mom works while disadvantaged person is still years behind only starting to read some of the lecture notes. Advantaged person is already spending hours in the lab putting the research in those notes into actual practice.

How is this the SAME opportunity?

So, please. Don't tell me the opportunity isn't there and that being in some supercomputer lab because you mom works there gives one a distinct advantage. Your position fails on 2 important points:

1. To be a "noted computer scientist" (like those in the link above), one must learn the language. Which means one must get educated, which means going to school, which I can find one online (at the library) and the requirements to get in. Which means once accepted, one also gets to use the super duper computer lab that the other guy's mother works in. Same opportunity, different path. No advantage there.

Advantaged person has had access to all of these things at the university for free before even leaving elementary school. Doesn't have to wait to get accepted or even has to ever be accepted so long as mom still works there. Disadvantaged person is spending time filling out applications in hopes of getting accepted before ever having a hope of setting foot into the lab that advantaged person has been accessing for years. Advantaged person is already a noted computer scientist even before thinking of going to college and may, like Bill Gates, not even need to bother with it. Disadvantaged person is sitting in Freshman English class while advantaged person is preparing a presentation for Intel.

And all of this is assuming that this impoverished person has a lot more self-motivation and drive and intellect and the time to spend studying and going to school than many in the same life situation, and that the public library didn't drastically cut hours or get shut down due to lack of funding, or can focus due to lack of food that day, or has to spend most of the day babysitting four younger siblings because the single parent mother needs to work an extra shift at her third minimum-wage job, which is how many disadvantaged people have to live.

How is this the SAME opportunity?

2. Most importantly, one has to have a certain aptitude for it. The person with the mom who works in the computer lab may not have the same aptitude for computer science as the person doing research at the library. Aptitude depends on the individual. Just because one wants to be a "noted computer scientist" doesn't mean they will become one, regardless of whatever perceived advantages they may have.

That's true, but is the advantaged person does wish to go that route and has the aptitude for it, then they are going to have a MUCH easier and less expensive experience than the disadvantaged person with the same desire and aptitude. It is by no means the same or equal opportunity for both due to drastically different circumstances.

And this is just one single example out of many. We simply do not have the same or equal opportunity in this country and there is no sense in trying to pretend that we do.
 
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FenderTL5

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I guess he was mistaken.
Not even in a small way.
Search "Corporate welfare" and read some articles from left and right, then review what happened during the bank bailout(s), where ordinary Americans lost everything yet those in charge were not only bailed out of their loss, but enriched further with taxpayer money. Now we have an administration desiring to roll-back the checks put in place to prevent it from happening again. Even bankruptcy is different for those with gabs of wealth as opposed to ordinary citizens.
It is far more true today than it was in the 60s.
 
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bekkilyn

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It's sad that we can't even seem to learn from the past as recently as even ten years ago. Even then, it was a fight to get the checks in place (and more were needed) and now we are in danger of even losing those. This is the sort of thing that happens when you put corporations (which include big banks) in charge of a country.
 
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