It's one of those weeks...

[religious&reasonable]

One of those weeks, where the doubt, the skepticism come creeping in. It happens every couple of weeks.

The questions flood in, i try to answer them, but never to my own satisfaction.

But this time it's different. I've been trying to think about religion as little as possible. All it does is leave me confused, and somewhat miserable.

Everytime I think about my faith, and christinity in general, all I can think of is people I know, People i care about, who don't beleive, burning and suffering. They don't deserve it, they're good people, but their doomed to it for eternity.

I see so many people who don't beleive, just like me and the rest of us, who because they made one poor mistake when making a choice about wha they beleive, it some how makes us more worthy than them to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's not justice.

I've reached a point I only hoped I'd never reach. What I wish was true, has no bearing on what it. But I can hope.

at this point, and as of now, and is subject to change in the future, I hope we as christians are wrong. I hope were all wrong. I hope athiests are wrong, and the muslims, and the hindus.

I hope and wish for an afterlife were noone suffers. I hope after this, there is nothing but happiness for everyone, whatever there happiness maybe. A perfect world for everyone in it. Where Athiests, budhists, and christians, and everone else goes, no matter what they did in their past life. Live and let die, Forgive and forget. No matter what.

I'll probably get flamed an tons of angry messages about this, but I don't know how else to describe this.

I know a person at my school, who is an agnostic. they want to beleive, and find it possible that there is God. Just looking for answers. They can;t be sure about anything someone tell them that came from a "holy book". every religion does that. I don't blame them. They're a good person, never hamred anyone in their lifetime, but just because they couldn't be sure, they're going to be punished for their cautiousness and wanting to make sure waht the real answer was.

This isn't about me anymore, it's about the poor souls who are just trying to find the right answer, never acccepting an absolute, because there is so much to doubt. And then there are those who come so close to believing, but pass away before. Imagain a man, a day away from truly acceptiing Christ and God, but one day before, he gets hit by a bus, and dies, before being able to be saved. Where's the Justice in that?

Why should I get to go to Heaven when none of these people who are btter than me in almost every way in the good work they do, just because I take the word of a book that anyone could doubt without real concrete proof for them to believe.

What's the point of being saved, a survivor, when everyone you know and love is dying all around you. I mean, other than the fact that you aren't burning in hell of course, which in it's own is how I'd like to keep it.

This should'nt be a matter or not we accept Christ as our savior. Forgiveness should be a one way thing. Christ did for our sins, and that should be the end of it. after that we should all be saved.

That's how it would work in this little perfect world of mine. But what does that matter when faced with reality.

But then again in my mind, sin shouldn't exist at all. Born with Sin? Yeah, that's fair.

It;s funny how this has actually been consuming all of my thoughts. All I can do is think think and think about all of this. I feel so wiped out by it. Can't think of anything else. So tormenting.

I'm going to bed.

 

[Birthew]

Hey I understand what your saying, I don't believe in a religion but I think there must be something afterlife due to these points;

1: Faith is global regardless of religion
2: There are many religions.
3: Culture and birthplace or being born into a religious family determine your beliefs. (If you were born in the middle east you would probably believe become a Muslim as Christianity would never reach you)
4: How can a god let someone burn in hell if they are only following what they have been told regardless of if its the truth or not, as those who follow a belief, believe it to be true.

In our society we are multicultural, therefore all religions contradict each other. I can't see a god punishing someone for not knowing what the truth is or being confused, what is godly about that?

 

[razeontherock]

That's not justice.

You truly do NOT want justice! What we want is Mercy. The fact that a Just G-d can extend Mercy to us, is something that took .. a LOT of planning. And none of us understand, not completely.

What you do want to understand is the cleansing Power of Christ's shed blood ...

 

[religious&reasonable]

You truly do NOT want justice! What we want is Mercy. The fact that a Just G-d can extend Mercy to us, is something that took .. a LOT of planning. And none of us understand, not completely.

What you do want to understand is the cleansing Power of Christ's shed blood ...

Maybe justice was the wrong word to use, but I think you mised the main point of my post.

 

[Birthew]

Maybe justice was the wrong word to use, but I think you mised the main point of my post.

What do you think about my point? Do you think God lets people from other religions burn in hell? If a child is born into Muslim/Judaism and follow religiously to their death, they are only worshiping god the way they have been told. I Personally can't see a God punishing those, whose intentions are true, but methods are different. What do you think?

 

[bling]

Here is the big dilemma.

Heaven is a place where a huge Love Feast goes on constantly, BUT that “Love” is not selfish or self seeking or self satisfying, it is a selfless, sacrificial, and serving others.

All mature adults on earth that have had all the opportunities they need to accept this Love as an unconditional, undeserving, free gift and continue to refuse the gift (they do not want to humbly accept charity or they just do not like this type of Love and prefer a self seeking type of love) will not be happy in heaven where there is only this type of Love.

God cannot force this Love on people (that would be like a shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) since that would not be loving on God’s part and the love they got would not be like God’s. God cannot just make people with this Love since that would be a robotic type love and not Godly type Love.

At great sacrifice God allows and or causes the best opportunities on earth for everyone that is just willing to accept God’s help to fulfill their earthly objective of accepting God’s Love. The best situation for willing individuals includes allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, people to sin, death and even hell to exist.

The problem is humans do not like to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity from a giver that paid a huge price for the gift. The gift exchange will not take place if the receiver refuses to accept the gift (God will not force it on them). If the receiver never has the opportunity to accept the gift (Godly type Love) they will enter heaven without ever obtaining Godly type Love (it has to be by the receiver’s choice with a real alternative (the perceived pleasures of sin)).

People that go to hell have shown they would not be happy in heaven. The Bible teaches degrees of punishment and sinners do not have eternal life, so they will eventually and some rapidly be annihilated.

 

[religious&reasonable]

Here is the big dilemma.

Heaven is a place where a huge Love Feast goes on constantly, BUT that “Love” is not selfish or self seeking or self satisfying, it is a selfless, sacrificial, and serving others.

All mature adults on earth that have had all the opportunities they need to accept this Love as an unconditional, undeserving, free gift and continue to refuse the gift (they do not want to humbly accept charity or they just do not like this type of Love and prefer a self seeking type of love) will not be happy in heaven where there is only this type of Love.

God cannot force this Love on people (that would be like a shoot gun wedding with God holding the shoot gun) since that would not be loving on God’s part and the love they got would not be like God’s. God cannot just make people with this Love since that would be a robotic type love and not Godly type Love.

At great sacrifice God allows and or causes the best opportunities on earth for everyone that is just willing to accept God’s help to fulfill their earthly objective of accepting God’s Love. The best situation for willing individuals includes allowing Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kinds, people to sin, death and even hell to exist.

The problem is humans do not like to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity from a giver that paid a huge price for the gift. The gift exchange will not take place if the receiver refuses to accept the gift (God will not force it on them). If the receiver never has the opportunity to accept the gift (Godly type Love) they will enter heaven without ever obtaining Godly type Love (it has to be by the receiver’s choice with a real alternative (the perceived pleasures of sin)).

People that go to hell have shown they would not be happy in heaven. The Bible teaches degrees of punishment and sinners do not have eternal life, so they will eventually and some rapidly be annihilated.

No, this doesn;t make sense.

People who go to hell wouldn't be happy in heaven? I'm 100% sure they'd much rather be in Heaven than in hell.

And who cares anyways? Drug addicts would rather you give them drugs than real help, so do you give them the drugs because that's what they want? No, the right thing to do is give then the help, against their will if need be, because they'll thank you later when they realize you were right all along. When people die and meet God, they realize their mistake, and I'm sure they change their minds once they finally know he's real.

Oh, but too late. Sorry, the rules of the game are you have to do it before you kick the bucket.

Your metaphor of a shotgun wedding doesn't apply, because once you tie the knot their your not going to be in eternal happiness. After the wedding they aren't going to go "Oh wow, i'm so glad I was forced into doing this", but i'm sure they would after getting into heaven.

A person who does not, or cannot belive in God, can;t make the choice of whether or no tot accept the "gift", because they didn't know it existed! That only applies to those who beleive in him and then go "Oh yeah, no thanks, don't want to go to heaven", and I don't know anyone who would do that.

And I don't know about you, but everyone I know would love to accept this gift of eternal life. Some of them just don't think it exists. It's no tthe same as saying no to the gift.

I stand by my inital statement of I hope were wrong, followed by my hope of what the afterlife is like.

 

[religious&reasonable]

What do you think about my point? Do you think God lets people from other religions burn in hell? If a child is born into Muslim/Judaism and follow religiously to their death, they are only worshiping god the way they have been told. I Personally can't see a God punishing those, whose intentions are true, but methods are different. What do you think?

That's what I hope it's like, but I don't know what it IS like. I would hope that all children regardless of faith go to heaven, as their minds are not develpoed enough to make desicions like these.

I couldn't see Him punishing them either, but it's all just speculation. It could be either or.

 

[bling]

No, this doesn;t make sense.

People who go to hell wouldn't be happy in heaven? I'm 100% sure they'd much rather be in Heaven than in hell.

And who cares anyways? Drug addicts would rather you give them drugs than real help, so do you give them the drugs because that's what they want? No, the right thing to do is give then the help, against their will if need be, because they'll thank you later when they realize you were right all along. When people die and meet God, they realize their mistake, and I'm sure they change their minds once they finally know he's real.

Oh, but too late. Sorry, the rules of the game are you have to do it before you kick the bucket.

Your metaphor of a shotgun wedding doesn't apply, because once you tie the knot their your not going to be in eternal happiness. After the wedding they aren't going to go "Oh wow, i'm so glad I was forced into doing this", but i'm sure they would after getting into heaven.

A person who does not, or cannot belive in God, can;t make the choice of whether or no tot accept the "gift", because they didn't know it existed! That only applies to those who beleive in him and then go "Oh yeah, no thanks, don't want to go to heaven", and I don't know anyone who would do that.

And I don't know about you, but everyone I know would love to accept this gift of eternal life. Some of them just don't think it exists. It's no tthe same as saying no to the gift.

I stand by my inital statement of I hope were wrong, followed by my hope of what the afterlife is like.

I did not say: “people that go to hell would not prefer to be in heaven.” They have shown by their actions (and God would know their hearts) that they do not like and would never like; selfless sacrificial unconditional type Love. That is the only type Love in heaven and it goes on constantly. This “Love” would make them uncomfortable, but they may stand it for a while, if there is no alternative. God is providing every want we have in heaven, so what if we want a Muslim type heaven (72 virgins+)? That is not something people in heaven with unselfish type Love would want. God cannot participate in sin and being selfish is sin, so heaven is not the place for self seeking people. (Are you seeing the problem?)

Oh! Once you are before the Judge looking at heaven or hell you would choose heaven, very good, but why (out of Love for God)? The choice is not heaven or hell (that is no choice at all since no one would choose hell in that situation) the result of your choice will include heaven or hell. You do not need free will to make that choice. For it to really be a free will choice you need perceived likely alternatives. Do you really want Godly type Love (to be totally unselfish) or do you want the perceived pleasures of sin for a season? God helps you with this by allowing you to sin and even increase sinning (the hurting of others) to the point that it becomes a real burden on your conscience. The only true relief from that burden is found in accepting God’s forgiveness (Charity). Just by humbly accepting God’s charity in the form of accepting forgiveness you Love much (…he that is forgiven much Loves much…). God has the choice and chooses to Love. Love has to be the result of a real choice and not automatic (that is robotic love). The choosing not to accept God’s Love (charity) in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness when you have a real opportunity (choice) to do so (on earth the only place with likely alternatives) is what keeps you out of the Love Feast.

Would it be loving on God’s part to chose for you what you of your own free will have repeatedly refused with ample opportunities (God would know if you had ample opportunities)? God is not going to “force” Godly type unselfish unconditional Love on you if you do not want it. The heaven comes with the Love, but you have to accept the Love since that is what heaven is all about.

 

[religious&reasonable]

I did not say: “people that go to hell would not prefer to be in heaven.” They have shown by their actions (and God would know their hearts) that they do not like and would never like; selfless sacrificial unconditional type Love. That is the only type Love in heaven and it goes on constantly. This “Love” would make them uncomfortable, but they may stand it for a while, if there is no alternative. God is providing every want we have in heaven, so what if we want a Muslim type heaven (72 virgins+)? That is not something people in heaven with unselfish type Love would want. God cannot participate in sin and being selfish is sin, so heaven is not the place for self seeking people. (Are you seeing the problem?)

Oh! Once you are before the Judge looking at heaven or hell you would choose heaven, very good, but why (out of Love for God)? The choice is not heaven or hell (that is no choice at all since no one would choose hell in that situation) the result of your choice will include heaven or hell. You do not need free will to make that choice. For it to really be a free will choice you need perceived likely alternatives. Do you really want Godly type Love (to be totally unselfish) or do you want the perceived pleasures of sin for a season? God helps you with this by allowing you to sin and even increase sinning (the hurting of others) to the point that it becomes a real burden on your conscience. The only true relief from that burden is found in accepting God’s forgiveness (Charity). Just by humbly accepting God’s charity in the form of accepting forgiveness you Love much (…he that is forgiven much Loves much…). God has the choice and chooses to Love. Love has to be the result of a real choice and not automatic (that is robotic love). The choosing not to accept God’s Love (charity) in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness when you have a real opportunity (choice) to do so (on earth the only place with likely alternatives) is what keeps you out of the Love Feast.

Would it be loving on God’s part to chose for you what you of your own free will have repeatedly refused with ample opportunities (God would know if you had ample opportunities)? God is not going to “force” Godly type unselfish unconditional Love on you if you do not want it. The heaven comes with the Love, but you have to accept the Love since that is what heaven is all about.

He should force it. All the suffering seems so unnecesary.

But I don't really have a problem with people believing in God and still rejecting them (that makes them idiots/delsusional).

No here is my problem. My problem is with non-believers and agnostics in general going to hell. What is their nail in the coffin? Uncertainty.

Many agnostics I know are just people who are trying to find answers, and aren't willing to accept the first thing they hear as "salvation" to be true based on something so alien to them as the idea of "faith". Thier just exploring the ideas, not contempt with shutting one out completley. open mindedness.

Same goes for hindus and muslims. They've pretty much been indoctrinated into thinking a certain way, and no amount of preaching will change that. They are brought up that way. They are so deeply rooted in their beliefs and raised to believe everything else is a lie. They've never known any other way to approach it.

If they've done things like rape and murder then punish them (not with infinite suffering though), but don't punish them for unbelief. That just isn't fair, and IMO cruel. I would suggest they be awarded for still trying to find answers, for their dilligence to the truh or something.

 

[aiki]

Everytime I think about my faith, and christinity in general, all I can think of is people I know, People i care about, who don't beleive, burning and suffering. They don't deserve it, they're good people, but their doomed to it for eternity.

Good according to what standard? Are these people equal in goodness to, say, Mother Theresa? Have they devoted their entire adult lives to sacrificially serving the diseased, the poverty-stricken and the dying? Or is it that they just aren't axe-murderers or rapists? What exactly is your standard for goodness? Do you even know? And what if someone else's standard is lower or higher than yours? How do you establish that your standard of goodness is superior to theirs? If you aren't able to make such a distinction, then why can't a person whose standard of goodness includes murderers, and drug dealers, and pedophiles object to hell on the same grounds as you? Do you see the problem I'm driving at? Where does one draw the line exactly between a good person and a bad one? And how do you know that where you've drawn the line is the right point at which to do so?

For the Christian, the standard of good and bad is established by God Himself. He is the perfectly holy standard to which all of humanity is held. And God's perfection and divine authority make him the right Source from which such a standard should originate. In comparison to Him, however, all of humanity is sin-soiled, soaked in selfishness both overt and subtle, oozing darkness from every pore. When we look at each other we seem quite decent to one another - much like a pig covered in the muck of his pen is completely at home with his fellow muck-befouled pigs. The pig with the least amount of muck may seem to his filth-covered porcine family remarkably clean; but compared to the immaculate snow-white swan swimming on the nearby pond, the cleanest pig in the pen is horribly soiled. In the same way, next to the divine purity of God, even the best of us are foul and dirty, though we only recognize this when we cease to compare ourselves among ourselves.

As the sin-stained creatures that we are, none of us deserve the gift of salvation and reconciliation that God offers to us. No one in hell deserves not to be there. You see, none of us comes anywhere near the perfect standard of God Himself and yet God does not turn away in disgust - as He has every right to do - but instead stoops to help us in our terrible weakness and sin. He has a perfect right to cast every one of us out of His pure, holy presence forever yet He extends to us mercy and grace instead. Every person in hell and every person in heaven deserves eternal damnation. Those in heaven are simply the ones who reached out and took the rescue from God's just wrath that He offers in His Son, Jesus Christ. No one is in heaven because they merit being there.

I see so many people who don't beleive, just like me and the rest of us, who because they made one poor mistake when making a choice about wha they beleive, it some how makes us more worthy than them to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's not justice.

I don't understand you're thinking here. Is the driver who obeys the stop sign at an intersection and avoids colliding with other cars more worthy of the resulting safety they experience than the driver who ignores the stop sign and gets into an accident? I don't think so. In fact, "worthiness" has nothing to do with it. The drivers who were obedient to established traffic law simply reaped the benefits of being obedient, just as those drivers who chose not to obey are "rewarded" with accident and injury. Likewise, those who are in heaven are not more worthy of being there than those who are in hell. Those who are in heaven simply obeyed the call of God to salvation and reap the eternal benefit of having done so.

Is it unjust that those drivers who obeyed the stop sign avoid accident while those who don't smash up their cars? Good grief! Of course not! No one would dream of making such an outrageous argument in court and I'm surprised to see a similar argument made here in regards to heaven and hell.

I hope and wish for an afterlife were noone suffers. I hope after this, there is nothing but happiness for everyone, whatever there happiness maybe.

So Hitler, who tortured and murdered millions of Jews in concentration camps should get to enjoy heaven? So Stalin, who imprisoned and murdered even more people than Hitler did, should gain the joy of eternity with God? The serial murder who tortures, mutilates and kills dozens of women should be welcomed with open arms at the Pearly Gates? The African general who makes children shoot their parents and butcher their friends should bask in the eternal warmth of God's paradise? These evil, unrepentant men should gain the same eternal reward as Mother Theresa? Really?

A perfect world for everyone in it. Where Athiests, budhists, and christians, and everone else goes, no matter what they did in their past life. Live and let die, Forgive and forget. No matter what.

Is this what you would tell the Serbian mother who was forced to watch as her newborn baby was raped and murdered by Croatian soldiers, her husband beaten and shot and was then raped and brutalized herself until she was thought to be dead? Would you say to her that the men who did these vile, atrocious things should face no divine justice whatsoever? How could God be holy and just and not punish such deep evil? The truth is, if He did as you suggest, He would Himself be evil.

I know a person at my school, who is an agnostic. they want to beleive, and find it possible that there is God. Just looking for answers. They can;t be sure about anything someone tell them that came from a "holy book". every religion does that. I don't blame them. They're a good person, never hamred anyone in their lifetime, but just because they couldn't be sure, they're going to be punished for their cautiousness and wanting to make sure waht the real answer was.

Imagine a young man standing on the ledge of a burning building looking down at a huge safety bag that has been inflated below him. People are calling to the young man to jump from the ledge onto the bag but he is doubtful about the safety of the bag. Will it stay inflated? Will it protect him from injury? Do the people urging him to jump really know that the bag is safe? The flames grow higher and hotter, yet the young man refuses to jump. He is just too cautious, his doubts prevent him from taking the leap that will save his life. Suddenly, the wall of the building collapses inward and the young man is engulfed in the raging inferno. His opportunity at salvation is forever lost because of his over-cautious doubting.

Now, is it unfair that the young man was caught by the fire and killed? He had opportunity to jump to safety and yet refused to take it. The bag was laid out below him and he was assured by those who had set it out that it would safely catch him. What more could be done? Should someone have climbed up through the burning building to the ledge the young man was on and jumped to prove the bag was safe? Of course not! What a ridiculous suggestion! The young man was the only one who could make the choice to jump. He chose not to and suffered the consequences. This isn't a matter of fairness but of poor decision making.

In the same way, your friend stands on the ledge of eternity doubting the way of salvation laid out for him by God. If he hesitates too long and allows his "cautiousness" to dissuade him from God's rescue, he will fall from the ledge into eternal damnation. But your friend will suffer this fate, not because God is unfair, but because your friend resisted the jump to safety that he needed to take.

This isn't about me anymore, it's about the poor souls who are just trying to find the right answer, never acccepting an absolute, because there is so much to doubt.

Do you doubt that if you cease to eat or drink you will soon die? Do you doubt that one penny added to another penny equals two pennies? Do you doubt that if you jump from a high cliff without a safe means of descent you will fall to your death? Not likely. Doubting some things does not require that one doubt all things. This is irrational.

And then there are those who come so close to believing, but pass away before. Imagain a man, a day away from truly acceptiing Christ and God, but one day before, he gets hit by a bus, and dies, before being able to be saved. Where's the Justice in that?

Should we give first place to the second-place sprinter who is beaten out of first place by a fraction of a second? I mean, he almost won, so why not give him first place, too? Of course, doing so would make winning the race, coming in first place, meaningless, wouldn't it? Likewise, it is not unjust to withhold salvation from those who almost choose the Saviour; for giving to them the same salvation as those who did choose the Saviour would make choosing him utterly meaningless.

What's the point of being saved, a survivor, when everyone you know and love is dying all around you. I mean, other than the fact that you aren't burning in hell of course, which in it's own is how I'd like to keep it.

If everyone you love is losing their teeth because they refused to brush them, do you say to yourself, "These are good people who are losing their teeth. Tooth decay is so unjust! Why should they have to suffer cavities and gum disease just because they won't brush their teeth! I love these good people so much I shall let my teeth rot out, too!" I sincerely hope not!

The point of being saved is Christ, not heaven. He is the Good Shepherd, He is our Advocate with the Father, He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, He is our Saviour and our greatest friend. Being saved brings us into fellowship with him; it reconciles us to our Maker and God; it makes us fellow-heirs with Christ and transforms us into his likeness. This is the purpose of salvation, not mere "fire insurance."

Selah.

 

[bling]

He should force it. All the suffering seems so unnecesary.

But I don't really have a problem with people believing in God and still rejecting them (that makes them idiots/delsusional).

No here is my problem. My problem is with non-believers and agnostics in general going to hell. What is their nail in the coffin? Uncertainty.

Many agnostics I know are just people who are trying to find answers, and aren't willing to accept the first thing they hear as "salvation" to be true based on something so alien to them as the idea of "faith". Thier just exploring the ideas, not contempt with shutting one out completley. open mindedness.


Same goes for hindus and muslims. They've pretty much been indoctrinated into thinking a certain way, and no amount of preaching will change that. They are brought up that way. They are so deeply rooted in their beliefs and raised to believe everything else is a lie. They've never known any other way to approach it.


If they've done things like rape and murder then punish them (not with infinite suffering though), but don't punish them for unbelief. That just isn't fair, and IMO cruel. I would suggest they be awarded for still trying to find answers, for their dilligence to the truh or something.

If you “force” people to take your “love” that is not Loving on your part and the “love” they got would not be Godly type Love but more like a robotic type love (something forced into their being.)


“Uncertainty” (knowing that there “is” a god) is not the problem for the “God option” is pretty obvious but not certain. This “uncertainty” is not being punished.


Someone is “punished” for in hell is refusing to accept the Creator’s help (Love) no matter if you are “uncertain” about God or not. The easiest and really only way to initially accept the Creator’s help is by accepting the creator’s forgiveness for your hurting His other children (sin) throughout your adult life. We all can come to the realization we need a Loving Creator to forgive us, since we have hurt others and if this God does exist He created them also and would be upset with our behavior toward them. If we feel bad enough about hurting others and good enough about what the Creator must be like (Loving) we will eventually get around to asking for forgiveness since we cannot “do” anything to make up for our actions.


God does not need us to go on some quest looking for Him, since He is right at our elbow. You might be looking in all the wrong places. This huge powerful Creator of the universe is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Spirit and the Spirit is in true Christians. You need to find you a true Christian, but even than you need to look further. It is not some big charismatic faith healer but someone caring for the hurt person on the side of the road. If you see the Love flowing out of a true (Christ like person) Christian (this should be seen where there is great “needs” (tragedies)) than it is that Love that you accept (desire) or reject (do not want anything to do with). “God is Love” so wanting, liking, and accepting that love is desiring/accepting the one true God.


I will admit there are some mature adults that never see/experience true Love (totally unselfish) and thus cannot say they have accepted or rejected such Love. These people are not hell bound, but would inter heaven missing out on their one wonderful opportunity to obtain Godly type Love. Unfortunately most people do not seem to want to be unselfish or even like to be around unselfish people (they reject God’s Love).

 

[religious&reasonable]

So Hitler, who tortured and murdered millions of Jews in concentration camps should get to enjoy heaven? So Stalin, who imprisoned and murdered even more people than Hitler did, should gain the joy of eternity with God? The serial murder who tortures, mutilates and kills dozens of women should be welcomed with open arms at the Pearly Gates? The African general who makes children shoot their parents and butcher their friends should bask in the eternal warmth of God's paradise? These evil, unrepentant men should gain the same eternal reward as Mother Theresa? Really?

Is this what you would tell the Serbian mother who was forced to watch as her newborn baby was raped and murdered by Croatian soldiers, her husband beaten and shot and was then raped and brutalized herself until she was thought to be dead? Would you say to her that the men who did these vile, atrocious things should face no divine justice whatsoever? How could God be holy and just and not punish such deep evil? The truth is, if He did as you suggest, He would Himself be evil.

So many pointless analogies. I dislike them so very much. I'll get to explaining why they have absolutley zero relevancy to this subject later, but right now I want to focus on is the points above.

My personal belief, Hitler nor Stalin deserve hell. Not even they did so bad to deserve an eternity of suffering.

Why? because they were misguided, mistaken, even though they believed that what they were doing was right and correct. The serbian rapist, while doing an awful, horrible, disgusting thing, still does not deserve an eternty of suffering. Of course he shouldn't be allowed to get into heaven before getting some kind of personality change first, but I would think the glory of God would be enough for that.

Oh, but too late, the rules of the game are you have to pick an answer before your time runs out. You win 0 points and will be punished for eternity for it. Thank for playing!

What these people did were wrong, but by no far stretch of the imagination is it worthy of an eternal hell.

And I also find the belief that the punishment for something on the level of killing billions of jews should be the same for someone with a disbelief in God. I actually find it slightly insane and for some odd reason take an offense to it.

On get on to the pointless analogies tommorow, I think I'm going to take a nap.

 

[razeontherock]

My personal belief, Hitler nor Stalin deserve hell. Not even they did so bad to deserve an eternity of suffering.

Why? because they were misguided, mistaken, even though they believed that what they were doing was right and correct.
Oh, but too late, the rules of the game are you have to pick an answer before your time runs out. You win 0 points and will be punished for eternity for it. Thank for playing!

It's a good thing you're not our Judge then, isn't it? And the same goes for all of us, you'll notice.

 

[aiki]

So many pointless analogies. I dislike them so very much. I'll get to explaining why they have absolutley zero relevancy to this subject later, but right now I want to focus on is the points above.

Okay...

My personal belief, Hitler nor Stalin deserve hell. Not even they did so bad to deserve an eternity of suffering.

I think you're sentiment would be different had you spent some time in one of Hitler's camps wondering when your turn in the gas chamber was coming and/or watching your loved ones tortured and murdered right before your eyes. Only someone thoroughly insulated from the terrible horrors and atrocities that have stained human affairs would think this way.

Really, though, the punishment of hell is the consequence of our sin being ultimately against God, not other people. Our sin is worthy of eternal punishment because it is an offence to our Maker.

Why? because they were misguided, mistaken, even though they believed that what they were doing was right and correct.

Misguided? Mistaken? LOL! I'm sorry, but this is naive in the extreme! Their view of what they did has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not their deeds were evil - which they most certainly were - and as such worthy of God's condemnation and punishment.

The serbian rapist, while doing an awful, horrible, disgusting thing, still does not deserve an eternty of suffering.

I'm sure you think so, but I disagree - and so does God.

Of course he shouldn't be allowed to get into heaven before getting some kind of personality change first, but I would think the glory of God would be enough for that.

Personality change? What, God should do a mind wipe? He should remake rapists and murderers? These evil men would not be who they are if God did that. They lived and died as unrepentant evildoers and that is who they are. And it is because this is who they chose to be that God's wrath rests upon them. We choose who we are and we suffer or enjoy the corresponding consequences (eternal or otherwise). You can rail against this all you want, but in the end you face the same choice as everybody else: Will you love God with all your heart, soul and strength? Or will you serve yourself? If you reject God, hell is your eternal destination. If you humble yourself before Him and live in loving service to Him you will have an eternal heavenly reward.

God has made a way for all men to escape hell. He set aside his glory and became a man and sacrificed Himself so that all people could be reconciled to Him. God has done far more than we deserve in an effort to rescue us from ourselves. He is under no obligation to do more.

Oh, but too late, the rules of the game are you have to pick an answer before your time runs out. You win 0 points and will be punished for eternity for it. Thank for playing!

Oh, its not a game. This isn't "play" as far as God is concerned. God does set the rules, though. Its His universe and He can do whatever He wants in it - whether we like it or not.

What these people did were wrong, but by no far stretch of the imagination is it worthy of an eternal hell.

You're entitled to your opinion.

And I also find the belief that the punishment for something on the level of killing billions of jews should be the same for someone with a disbelief in God. I actually find it slightly insane and for some odd reason take an offense to it.

The issue regarding eternal punishment isn't how many awful things you've done but against whom you have done those awful things. Hitler murdered millions of Jews but he did so in defiance of God's commands. It is a vile, horrendous thing to murder millions of people, but it is a matter of eternal consequence to do so in contravention to the command of the infinite, holy Maker and Sustainer of the universe. You would make offending God a small thing but God demonstrates in His awful wrath poured out upon our sinful offenses that they are great and terrible. God is not insane; you are labouring under the misapprehension that your view should be God's.

Selah.