Its all the same in the end.

[Alovera]

Hi everyone. This thread concerns something that has always bothered me about salvation. Maybe I am wrong about this but its hard to see how I can be.

Basically, isn't it the same -- in practice -- believing you are saved by grace to believing you are saved by grace and works? How? Like this:

If I believe I am saved by grace, how do I know for sure I that I actually have God's grace: by my works. Works are the physical and outward evidence of faith. If being saved by grace was such a sure thing, then why does Christ say that we need to be on watch in the parable about the slaves who do not know when their master is coming back? The Bible does seem to suggest that people who may think they are Christian may in fact not be. So it all comes back to being diligent in your life and measuring how you are doing, and how else can you measure yourself other than your works?

But it even seems in some ways that your works may not actually tell the whole story: at the end, Jesus says, some will say: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And Jesus will tell them, "away from me evil doers, I never knew you."

I don't know, could someone show me passages that really say that we can be certain of our salvation just based on what we believe. Even if you can though, provided my memory is working I can probably find many passages that seem to show otherwise.

Hopefully this isn't the wrong place for this thread. In my Anglican church at least, the minister always tells me I have it wrong.

 

[singpeace]

Alovera,

You're doing a great job expounding on God's Word.

Faith without works is dead (James 4:7) can be phrased, 'good works in service for others as obedience to God produces faith.'

We cannot win our salvation by doing good works.

However, once we are saved, God commands us to do good works because this is how the world will know that the Father is in us and that we are in him.

 

[Alovera]

Alovera,

You're doing a great job expounding on God's Word.

Faith without works is dead (James 4:7) can be phrased, 'good works in service for others as obedience to God produces faith.'

We cannot win our salvation by doing good works.

However, once we are saved, God commands us to do good works because this is how the world will know that the Father is in us and that we are in him.

Thanks for your reply singpeace.

I guess my question to you then is, how can we know for sure that we are saved? Can we?

I bring up the issue of works because absolute certainty seems to be a Protestant belief regarding salvation by grace alone, where as I am told that Catholics, who believe in works and grace as the means of salvation, do not hold that they can be certain they are saved.

 

[wayseer]

I guess my question to you then is, how can we know for sure that we are saved?

We don't - we trust.

 

[singpeace]

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (I John 5:13)


OBEY GOD'S COMMANDS

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." (I John 3:24)


LOVE OF GOD AND BRETHREN

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love." (I John 4:7-8)

"By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him." (I John 3:16-19)


FAITH IN JESUS

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world -- our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (I John 5:1-5)

 

[Alovera]

We don't - we trust.

That's as good an answer as I could have hoped for, thank you wayseer.

And thank you singpeace for the bible passages. I can see a lot of things in those verses that would be a good means for self evaluation, both regarding works and faith.

 

[file13]

These are good questions that I think all Christians wrestle with. Regarding the relationship between faith and works, I do agree with you that from a pragmatic POV, all orthodox Protestants, regardless of their view of the "minor details" of salvation (aka, Arminianism vs Calvinism, etc) all agree that in the end, faith must be accompanied with works. Otherwise we become antinomians who claim to have gotten a Get Out of Hell Free Card and who can now get drunk at the strip club every night and still be saved. So in the end, we'd all agree that faith and works are an essential element in salvation.

Of course the important distinction to remember is that according to sola gratis and sola fide, we do works not "to be saved," but "because we are saved." In other words, works will naturally follow a "saving faith." This is important because this distinction goes against the view of Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The difference looks something like this.

• Catholic/Orthodox: Faith + Works -> Salvation
• Protestant: Faith -> Works + Salvation

As for your later question about assurance, one can't fully answer this question without going into the "minor details of salvation" I mentioned above. But we can still affirm some sort of assurance without going there. I think wayseer makes a very good point which I would agree with if we qualify the statement. Philosophically speaking, there is no such a thing as ontological or absolute certainty in anything. So wayseer is indeed correct that we cannot have absolute assurance or total certainty of anything, much less of salvation. Even mathematicians have had to come to terms with the fact that this is an impossible goal. But, even if we can't have total certainty, it is possible to have some certainty in the sense that we can have a reasonable assurance that something is true or certain in spite of not being able to have total certainty. In other words, just because I can't be 100% certain that if you jump out of an airplane without a parachute you will die (because there are strange flukes where folks survive this), I can be pretty darn certain that this is the case. In the same way, it is at least possible to have some degree of certainty, although it will never be absolute (at least from our POV). Even if one rejects the notion of the "Preservation of the Saints" or "once saved always saved," one can still theoretically trust in Christ enough to have some measure of assurance. After all, how many of us trust our lives to airline pilots who we've never met? Why can't we do the same with the God of the universe?

To go any farther would require us to open a can of worms regarding the details of soteriology, so I'll stop here. But my point is that there will be more to this story depending on one's POV.

Finally, I think it's important that regardless of the "minor details," Scripture does affirm that some assurance is possible and even urges us to seek assurance:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. (2 Peter 1:10 ESV)

In any case, hope this helps!

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I think that, once you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you can't help yourself but to become the hands and feet of Jesus and to do good works. This is very different from trying to earn your way to heaven.

 

[mark46]

And billions are separated from fellow Christains by misunderstanding what the other teaches with regard to faith and works.

Two Languanges of Salvation: The Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration

Anglicans, Catholics, Othrodox, and Protestant all believe in what Paul taught to the Church at Ephesus.

Ephesians 2:4-10 (New King James Version)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.


=====================================================

The problem comes when we use the word salvation to mean different things. When we carefully separate justification and sanctification, most of the difference quickly goes away. Many Catholics and EO use the word salvation to encompass justification and sanctification. This is more translation and common usage than difference in doctrine.

As I taught in both the Baptist and Catholic churches.

I was saved (justification)
I am being saved (santification)
I will be saved (glorification)

The Holy Spirit converts and saves us every day of our lives.

Christians reasonably argue about the nature of the Church, about sacraments and about the meaning of free will. However we all confess that we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, in CHRIST JESUS. We all agree on the importance of completing good works as we were created and equipped to do so. We all agree that we must confess Jesus as both savior AND Lord, and that Jesus taught TWO commandments, not one.

.Of course the important distinction to remember is that according to sola gratis and sola fide, we do works not "to be saved," but "because we are saved." In other words, works will naturally follow a "saving faith." This is important because this distinction goes against the view of Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The difference looks something like this.

• Catholic/Orthodox: Faith + Works -> Salvation
• Protestant: Faith -> Works + Salvation

.

 

[file13]

Anglicans, Catholics, Othrodox, and Protestant all believe in what Paul taught to the Church at Ephesus.

Wow! I'm truly amazed brother. I wonder what kind of response you'd get if you said this in the Baptist or Catholic forum?

Many Catholics and EO use the word salvation to encompass justification and sanctification. This is more translation and common usage than difference in doctrine.

I'm sorry, but it's not just a linguistic problem, it's the difference between night and day. In fact it clearly affirms what I wrote above that they essentially believe that Faith + Works -> Salvation.

We all agree on the importance of completing good works as we were created and equipped to do so. We all agree that we must confess Jesus as both savior AND Lord, and that Jesus taught TWO commandments, not one.

Yes. BUT Catholics and Orthodox believe that works are necessary to be saved. Protestants believe they are the result of being saved. This is a huge difference.

"Mortal sin" will disqualify a Catholic from salvation if not confessed, and even if confessed, the stain of the sin will still require purgation (i.e. purgatory) in the absence of an indulgence. How many Protestants agree with this?

Eastern Orthodox are taught that they must pass throw aerial-toll houses when they die and be tested and "taxed" by demons. If they have not confessed all their sins and/or do not have sufficient "works," the demons will drag them to hell (though it all could just be an allegory to express what they'll experience in the particular judgment! Ask your local priest for details...). How many Protestants agree with this?

Just...wow!

 

[Alovera]

These are good questions that I think all Christians wrestle with. Regarding the relationship between faith and works, I do agree with you that from a pragmatic POV, all orthodox Protestants, regardless of their view of the "minor details" of salvation (aka, Arminianism vs Calvinism, etc) all agree that in the end, faith must be accompanied with works. Otherwise we become antinomians who claim to have gotten a Get Out of Hell Free Card and who can now get drunk at the strip club every night and still be saved. So in the end, we'd all agree that faith and works are an essential element in salvation.

Of course the important distinction to remember is that according to sola gratis and sola fide, we do works not "to be saved," but "because we are saved." In other words, works will naturally follow a "saving faith." This is important because this distinction goes against the view of Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The difference looks something like this.

• Catholic/Orthodox: Faith + Works -> Salvation
• Protestant: Faith -> Works + Salvation

Thanks for your post.

I still think even though you have described a difference, in practice it works out to be the same kind of life:

- You need faith and works to be saved, so you work to know you are saved.
- You need faith to be saved but works is the evidence of your faith, so you work to know you are saved.

 

[file13]

I still think even though you have described a difference, in practice it works out to be the same kind of life

I hear ya and I absolutely agree, that in practice, everyone (excluding antinomians of course) agrees that a "saving faith" is a working faith. The difference really seems to involve our relationship with God.

For example, the relationship of someone who holds an Arminian view is very different from that of a Catholic. The Arminian's only fear is that he does not completely abandon the faith, something which they would likely say is only possible if one remains in such a state for a protracted period of time. But as long as this is so, he puts no trust in his works to "earn him merit" and is secure that his salvation is secure due to his faith. A Catholic on the other hand can never have the same relationship since, as mentioned above, a mortal sin can put him on a hell bound course at any given moment. Of course he can repent and receive absolution in the sacrament of confession, but I think it's clear that they will have a very different relationship with God based on how they understand Jesus Christ as either their savior or their partner in good works--which is strange when you think about it, because since God is God, no one doubts that he'll hold up His end of the bargain which in reality places one's salvation in one's own hands.

That's the difference I'm trying to emphasize. But yes, in practical terms, all Christians should be doing God's works. It's the reason why they do them that's crucial.