IT THE GODHEAD A TRINITY ?

Dan Perez

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p
 

HTacianas

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p

Elohim is plural, having the meaning judges. But only one judge, having seven distinct qualities or characteristics. It is the same Spirit the writer of the Revelation refers to when he says:

Rev 3:1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars:

Some translations have it, more accurately, the sevenfold Spirit of God. See also here:

Rev 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

Notice also Gen 1:2:

Gen 1:2 ...And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

It's the same as Rev 5:6, in that the Spirit is sent out into all the earth. Philo of Alexandria had it that God exists as a Divine Triad. The icon of God is the Ark of the Covenant. God the Father sits on the Mercy Seat and is flanked by the two cherubim, each one representing a divine power of God. When God the Father is seated on the Mercy Seat the ark "comes alive". When God is not seated on the Mercy seat the ark is a mere object. The cherubim are images of both the the Divine Creative Power of God as well as the Regent Power of God. It was through the creative power that all things were made, see John 1:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Not only does God create through this power, but also sustains all things through that power. See Colossians:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
 
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SuperCow

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p

Here is a footnote in the NIV Bible which gives a pretty accurate history for 1 John 5:7:

"Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)"

With regard to Genesis 1:26, both sides claim it proves their point.

In general, not a good springboard to start the discussion if you are a Trinitarian. You can find many more scriptures if you put in some effort. Then again, most of them end up being used by both sides to play convoluted word games.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p
I always see this lame argument that there is no word 'trinity' in the Bible, therefore God is not trinity. Well, the word 'bacon' is not in the Bible either, but I have no doubt bacon exists as I eat it regularly.
 
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Lukaris

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As early as the 3rd century there is an example of the Trinitarian understanding of 1 John 5:7 by St. Cyprian of Cartilage:





John Wycliffe translated the first (old) English Bible in the 14th century the same way Cyprian knew it.


7For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.



https://textusreceptusbibles. com/W...d these thre ben oon. [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]
 
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Jan001

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Jesus commanded that every disciple of His be baptized in the three names of the three Persons who are God:

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
 
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Jan001

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I always see this lame argument that there is no word 'trinity' in the Bible, therefore God is not trinity. Well, the word 'bacon' is not in the Bible either, but I have no doubt bacon exists as I eat it regularly.
I really do like bacon. :)
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p
Yes at Genesis 1:1 the title “God” is translated from Elohim, which is plural in Hebrew. Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, “The LORD our God [from Elohim] is one LORD.”

But the plural form of the noun Elohim here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead. In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title elohim is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god. At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the “lord” (adhoneh, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used, "ho Theos" (God, singular) as the equivalent of Elohim. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho Theos is similarly used.

At Deuteronomy6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: “YHWH(Jehovah) our God is one YHWH(Jehovah.”) The nation of Israel, to whom that was stated, did not believe in the Trinity. The Babylonians and the Egyptians worshiped triads of gods, but it was made clear to Israel that YHWH(Jehovah) God is different.

At Genesis 1:26 many claim that because the word "us" is here in this scripture that three persons are being spoken about here, but the word "us" can be referring to only two persons and so God is speaking to his only begotten son here.

While I know that many will choose to believe what they choose to believe and they of course have that right, but that being said, at 1 John 5:7 there are Bibles that say concerning this verse, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” However there is too much evidence however concerning 1John 5:7 that the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” that do not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts.

So most modern Bible translations omit those words. The Bible edition by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine putting the words in brackets along with an explanatory footnote, as follows: “The Holy See reserves to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading.”

The oldest Greek manuscript of the Christian Scriptures is, in the judgment of many, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, written in the first half of the fourth century. In our own copy of this Greek manuscript as edited by Cardinal Angelus Maius in 1859, he inserted the Greek words into the Manuscript copy but added a sign of a footnote at the end of the preceding verse. The footnote is in Latin and, translated, reads:

"From here on in the most ancient Vatican codex, which we reproduce in this edition, the reading is as follows: “For there are three that give testimony, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are for one. If the testimony” etc. There is therefore lacking the celebrated testimony of John concerning the divine three persons, which fact was already long known to critics."

Dr. Edgar J. Goodspeed, the Bible translator said, on 1 John 5:7: “This verse has not been found in Greek in any manuscript in or out of the New Testament earlier than the thirteenth century. It does not appear in any Greek manuscript of 1 John before the fifteenth century, when one cursive has it; one from the sixteenth also contains the reading. These are the only Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in which it has ever been found. But it occurs in no ancient Greek manuscript or Greek Christian writer or in any of the oriental versions. So since some Bibles 1 John 5:7 says, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one," and they don't appear in any Greek Manuscripts earlier than the thirteenth century, where then did they get their information if no source existed until the thirteenth century or after.
It is universally discredited by Greek scholars and editors of the Greek text of the New Testament.” So in the examination of John’s writings as to who the Word and God are, we cannot proceed on the basis of what the spurious words in 1 John 5:7 are saying.
 
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One God and Father of All

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In Gen we find the word GOD // ELOHIM an noun , and GOD is in then PLURAL , and is in the ABOLUTE .

#2 Also in Gen 1:26 it reads LET US MAKE // ASA and it stem is in the Hebrew , QAL , also in the PLURAL

#3 In 1 John 5:7 There are THREE that bear witness , the Father , Word , and the Holy Spirit , looks like a TRINITY or THREE , which ever you LIKE >

dan p
In Gen 1:27 it’s said that “He created” which is 3rd person singular.
So you have God speaking to others in Gen 1:26 but then it’s ”He” not us or we who created them.
 
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Dan Perez

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In Gen 1:27 it’s said that “He created” which is 3rd person singular.
So you have God speaking to others in Gen 1:26 but then it’s ”He” not us or we who created them.
I checked and you are right on , which is in the third person singular and I will have be more careful .

dan p
 
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Lukaris

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There is much research in support of 1 John 5:7 as written from Wycliffe to the KJV etc.



This is an authentic and important verse that serves as a fulfillment of what Moses said in Deuteronomy 6:4.

I can’t see how the Trinitarian verse of 1 John 5:7 is not original as we read more of the verses around it like 1 John 5:4-9.

I believe statements of ancient Christians like 7th century St. Thalassios of the largely lost Christian part of Lybia testify to the truth of the Trinity in 1 John 5:7,



91. Just as the single essence of the Godhead is said to exist in three Persons, so the Holy Trinity is confessed to have one essence.

92. We regard the Father as unoriginate and as the source: as unoriginate because He is unbegotten, and as the source because He is the begetter of the Son and the sender forth of the Holy Spirit, both of whom are by essence from Him and in Him from all eternity.

93. Paradoxically, the One moves from itself into the Three and yet remains One, while the Three return to the One and yet remain Three.

94. Again, the Son and the Spirit are regarded as not unoriginate, and yet as from all eternity. They are not unoriginate because the Father is their origm and source: but They are eternal in that They coexist with the Father, the one begotten by Him and the other proceeding from Him from all eternity.

90. The single divinity of the Trinity is undivided and the three Persons of the one divinity are unconfused.



 
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Jan001

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Yes at Genesis 1:1 the title “God” is translated from Elohim, which is plural in Hebrew. Trinitarians construe this to be an indication of the Trinity. They also explain Deuteronomy 6:4 to imply the unity of members of the Trinity when it says, “The LORD our God [from Elohim] is one LORD.”

But the plural form of the noun Elohim here in Hebrew is the plural of majesty or excellence. (See NAB, St. Joseph Edition, Bible Dictionary, p. 330; also, New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. V, p. 287.) It conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a godhead. In similar fashion, at Judges 16:23 when reference is made to the false god Dagon, a form of the title elohim is used; the accompanying verb is singular, showing that reference is to just the one god. At Genesis 42:30, Joseph is spoken of as the “lord” (adhoneh, the plural of excellence) of Egypt.

The Greek language does not have a ‘plural of majesty or excellence.’ So, at Genesis 1:1 the translators of LXX used, "ho Theos" (God, singular) as the equivalent of Elohim. At Mark 12:29, where a reply of Jesus is reproduced in which he quoted Deuteronomy 6:4, the Greek singular ho Theos is similarly used.

At Deuteronomy6:4, the Hebrew text contains the Tetragrammaton twice, and so should more properly read: “YHWH(Jehovah) our God is one YHWH(Jehovah.”) The nation of Israel, to whom that was stated, did not believe in the Trinity. The Babylonians and the Egyptians worshiped triads of gods, but it was made clear to Israel that YHWH(Jehovah) God is different.

At Genesis 1:26 many claim that because the word "us" is here in this scripture that three persons are being spoken about here, but the word "us" can be referring to only two persons and so God is speaking to his only begotten son here.

While I know that many will choose to believe what they choose to believe and they of course have that right, but that being said, at 1 John 5:7 there are Bibles that say concerning this verse, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.” However there is too much evidence however concerning 1John 5:7 that the words, "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one” that do not appear in the oldest Greek manuscripts.

So most modern Bible translations omit those words. The Bible edition by the Roman Catholic Episcopal Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine putting the words in brackets along with an explanatory footnote, as follows: “The Holy See reserves to itself the right to pass finally on the origin of the present reading.”

The oldest Greek manuscript of the Christian Scriptures is, in the judgment of many, the Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, written in the first half of the fourth century. In our own copy of this Greek manuscript as edited by Cardinal Angelus Maius in 1859, he inserted the Greek words into the Manuscript copy but added a sign of a footnote at the end of the preceding verse. The footnote is in Latin and, translated, reads:

"From here on in the most ancient Vatican codex, which we reproduce in this edition, the reading is as follows: “For there are three that give testimony, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are for one. If the testimony” etc. There is therefore lacking the celebrated testimony of John concerning the divine three persons, which fact was already long known to critics."

Dr. Edgar J. Goodspeed, the Bible translator said, on 1 John 5:7: “This verse has not been found in Greek in any manuscript in or out of the New Testament earlier than the thirteenth century. It does not appear in any Greek manuscript of 1 John before the fifteenth century, when one cursive has it; one from the sixteenth also contains the reading. These are the only Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in which it has ever been found. But it occurs in no ancient Greek manuscript or Greek Christian writer or in any of the oriental versions. So since some Bibles 1 John 5:7 says, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one," and they don't appear in any Greek Manuscripts earlier than the thirteenth century, where then did they get their information if no source existed until the thirteenth century or after.
It is universally discredited by Greek scholars and editors of the Greek text of the New Testament.” So in the examination of John’s writings as to who the Word and God are, we cannot proceed on the basis of what the spurious words in 1 John 5:7 are saying.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

God in three persons. All three persons are addressed as "He". All three Persons are God.
 
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