It still hurts

[MyOwnSheep]

I'm not interested in arguing with you, Akai. I thought it was fairly clear that the 'you' in much of my post was directed at Christianity as a whole rather than you personally. Although apparently some of the points struck home for you since you clearly agree with politicizing Christian values and are against homosexual rights.

I truly don't feel like it's my responsibility to change your mind about imposing religious philosophy into politics and laws - enforcing a nation of people who don't follow your religion to follow your religion whether they like it or not. What would be the point?


Psychology, Social Sciences, observation, and a discerning, educated understanding of humanity as a whole is how I know what I know. It's simply reason. The Bible even says you will know them by your fruit. Once you understand human motivation, the basic hierarchy of human needs, basic human reactions such as the fight or flight response, it's not so difficult to understand why religion is so divisive, why people are strapping bombs to their chests or flying planes into buildings or claiming homosexuality is the reason for natural disasters being visited upon a nation.

I sorry that human nature offends you. I find it rather dissapointing myself.

 

[aiki]

I'm not interested in arguing with you, Akai. I thought it was fairly clear that the 'you' in much of my post was directed at Christianity as a whole rather than you personally. Although apparently some of the points struck home for you since you clearly agree with politicizing Christian values and are against homosexual rights.

"Struck home"? Hmmm....Your words seemed more along the line of a rant than anything. I don't find ranting particularly thought provoking or striking...

I truly don't feel like it's my responsibility to change your mind about imposing religious philosophy into politics and laws - enforcing a nation of people who don't follow your religion to follow your religion whether they like it or not. What would be the point?

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Where did I say anything about forcing a nation to follow my religion whether they like it or not? You made a great many criticisms, declarations and assertions in your last post to me, none of which you seem prepared to defend or explain. I asked you some pointed questions in response. Of the two of us, you seem far more interested in imposing a point of view...

Psychology, Social Sciences, observation, and a discerning, educated understanding of humanity as a whole is how I know what I know. It's simply reason.

Psychology, of all the sciences, is the least mature. In fact, it could be said to be still in its infancy. And as the "science" of psychology moves farther from the harder sciences like medicine, biology, and chemistry it becomes increasingly confused and contradictory.

The Social Sciences are even more prejudiced in their approach to understanding human behaviour and interaction. Most of it is simply disguised hard-core naturalism.

In both of these areas of study, "reason" is not the over-arching constant. I would be very interested to see how your simple reason answers the questions and observations I've made.

The Bible even says you will know them by your fruit. Once you understand human motivation, the basic hierarchy of human needs, basic human reactions such as the fight or flight response, it's not so difficult to understand why religion is so divisive, why people are strapping bombs to their chests or flying planes into buildings or claiming homosexuality is the reason for natural disasters being visited upon a nation.

The hierarchy of human needs, basic human reactions, etc., offer some insight into the motives behind human behaviour and social interaction, but they by no means provide a definitive, unassailable answer to why humans do what they do. In particular, modern secular psychology and social sciences are designed to promote a naturalistic worldview, one that specifically and purposefully excludes religious ideas. Naturalism is the filter through which everything in the fields of study you've mentioned is understood. It is no wonder, then, that these areas of study assert a conclusion that supports the naturalistic presuppositions with which they begin.

I would warn you, though, that far more people have died under the godless, atheistic regimes that naturalism engenders than at the hands of suicidally-fanatic car bombers or hijackers. Over 100 million people were killed under the oppressive, naturalistic communist regimes of Russia, China, and Cambodia. The kind of godless reason you seem to support has destroyed more lives than all the religions of the world combined.

I sorry that human nature offends you. I find it rather dissapointing myself.

You're sorry? Really? Well, I'm not sure why you think I feel "offended" but let me assure you that I'm not.

Peace.

 

[MyOwnSheep]

Perhaps you'd be more comfy in an appologetics section of the forum Akai. I'm through arguing with you and I'm not going to swap fruitless accusations with you. I think you don't understand me at all. You think the same of me, among other things. Let's leave it at that and part ways as there can be no meeting of minds here. In an act of total dismissal you've said you think my words are nothing but meaningless rant. So I see no point in speaking with you any further. Goodbye.

 

[drich0150]

Drich, you are now misunderstanding me to the point of preaching to the choir as well as making some rather sweeping assumptions about my past and present spirituality. I wasn't looking for a relationship with God. Why search for what's already had? God isn't the person I have a problem with. It's humanity. Christian people in particular so it's Christian people I'm here to test the waters with and try to mend some sort of figurative relationship. Possibly a mistake.

If this is true then it should be very easy to look past the efforts of a well intentioned fool. Because If you do indeed share a relationship with God then your grace and forgiveness should abound as God's grace and forgiveness does.

If you're going to continue to assume that I have never had and currently have no relationship with God then our conversations are not going to go anyway. I'm not some bottle-sucking milk drinker. I've been on the meat for a very long time.

I believe that you may have mistaken my intentions. When you write you make no distinction between Christianity or the true church, and all who claim to be christian. you made several observations as to how "Christianity" has hurt you, when in fact Christianity as a whole has nothing to do with what those people have done to you. My efforts were to show you the difference between those who call themselves christian, and the rest of Christianity.

I personally don't know you well enough to make a meaningful assertion on whether or not you indeed have a relationship with God. I at no time was trying to convert you to anything. I was trying to help you make a recognizable division between The Church, and popular christianity.

Way to demean my entire issue. Here I thought this is where people who don't call themselves Christians are encouraged to share their struggles. Instead I get told I'm just too sensitive and don't really have anything to be struggling about.

Even taken out of context, how is any of what i wrote demeaning? I will be the first to admit it is not coddling, but i would estimate it is not demeaning in anyway. I was simply summarizing your experiences to prove a larger point.. To me it was obvious that a reasonable amount of time had past from when these events had originally taken place, and it is also evident that you moved on (because your married)

what would you suggest i do in the future when i want to summarize another's situation without needlessly drawing it out or rehashing the entire story?

As for the difficulties multi-RACIAL people 'will and do have' I suppose we should all try to breed more stupid into our children too since smart kids get so picked on in school and frankly my IQ has always set me apart way more than the fact that I'm multi-racial. Maybe wack little Jimmy in the head a few times just to make sure he has a good life.

Again, I am multi racial as well, and i have found everything you professor or whom ever said to be true. It is easier for people of a solid back ground to mix and intermingle with others of their own race/culture, than someone from a more diverse background. I have found nothing but pain and heart ache trying to place myself in society, with family, and friends.. So yeah, it is easier, but so what... Life is not easy, and it is all of the Headache, and Heartache that can make us stand out...



That said,

I wrote and ranted about all of the Koreans in my life and on this site who generally keep me at arms length, (Because i don't truly belong) i even question their faith.. Why?? Because i was in the middle of a pity party for one. I didn't actually want help, I either wanted to automatically be accepted, or i wanted others to feel guilty for my pain.

I also did this for the three women who went in and out of my life because of race issues, Never once did i consider that it was me and not them.. That i went in to the situation with a chip on my shoulder, and expected almost demanded reparations for all of my hardships up to that point in my life, but again that was me, and according to what you have stated you are nothing of the sort.

 

[MyOwnSheep]

If this is true then it should be very easy to look past the efforts of a well intentioned fool. Because If you do indeed share a relationship with God then your grace and forgiveness should abound as God's grace and forgiveness does.




I believe that you may have mistaken my intentions. When you write you make no distinction between Christianity or the true church, and all who claim to be christian. you made several observations as to how "Christianity" has hurt you, when in fact Christianity as a whole has nothing to do with what those people have done to you. My efforts were to show you the difference between those who call themselves christian, and the rest of Christianity.

I personally don't know you well enough to make a meaningful assertion on whether or not you indeed have a relationship with God. I at no time was trying to convert you to anything. I was trying to help you make a recognizable division between The Church, and popular christianity.



Even taken out of context, how is any of what i wrote demeaning? I will be the first to admit it is not coddling, but i would estimate it is not demeaning in anyway. I was simply summarizing your experiences to prove a larger point.. To me it was obvious that a reasonable amount of time had past from when these events had originally taken place, and it is also evident that you moved on (because your married)

what would you suggest i do in the future when i want to summarize another's situation without needlessly drawing it out or rehashing the entire story?



Again, I am multi racial as well, and i have found everything you professor or whom ever said to be true. It is easier for people of a solid back ground to mix and intermingle with others of their own race/culture, than someone from a more diverse background. I have found nothing but pain and heart ache trying to place myself in society, with family, and friends.. So yeah, it is easier, but so what... Life is not easy, and it is all of the Headache, and Heartache that can make us stand out...



That said,

I wrote and ranted about all of the Koreans in my life and on this site who generally keep me at arms length, (Because i don't truly belong) i even question their faith.. Why?? Because i was in the middle of a pity party for one. I didn't actually want help, I either wanted to automatically be accepted, or i wanted others to feel guilty for my pain.

I also did this for the three women who went in and out of my life because of race issues, Never once did i consider that it was me and not them.. That i went in to the situation with a chip on my shoulder, and expected almost demanded reparations for all of my hardships up to that point in my life, but again that was me, and according to what you have stated you are nothing of the sort.

Drich. I appologize for misinterpreting your intentions towards me. I guess our experiences are a little bit different. I stopped wanting to belong at a pretty young age. It was just me, my books, and god. If someone came to me looking for companionship or someone to listen to their problems then I dutifully listened. Was unsurprised when they disappeared from my life again for a while because it wasn't cool to be seen around me, forgave them when they came back because I knew that forgiveness was important. Over and over and over. I never let it keep me down or change me. I took comfort and confidence in Christ and forgave every time. I participated in organized social activities. Church stuff, drama club, photography. stuff like that. When kids were mean to me I just looked at them with disdain really, and took comfort in the fact that when the chips were down I was somehow for some inexplicable reason still the one they came to for friendship. Go figure.

I truly, stupidly and naively, beleived that Bible College would be different because everyone there would be as close to God as me and want to serve him and love him as much as me and feel keenly their brotherhood and sisterhood as much as me. Some did. Most didn't. Something happened that I'm still trying to understand. I think I might have a had a nervous break down because my hands haven't been steady since, even when I'm happy, comfy, relaxed, full of joy, what-have you. Bad nerves now and forever more. Maybe not letting it get me down translated to not dealing. Because down came the straw that broke me. I held it together until I got to my room. Then I collapsed on the floor shaking. Cried for hours and hours. I cried until my tears turned pink. When I was done crying I knew I was different. My husband is the only person I am truly at peace and completely in love with. He gets excited about the same things that I do. he understands what I'm on about when I start yammering on about Dystopia and Mythoepiea when others would just look at me like I'm an alien. I trust him. I know he wants what's best for me, sees the best in me, encourages me to be better. With his help I'm getting better at reaching out to other people too.

And now I'm rambling in no direction at all and have a bit of a fever. I know I've got anger issues with the church and as a very smart person I know, intellectually, that alot of it is misplaced. But how do I take that brain and put it in my heart and turn off the fear so that my brains decision to forgive makes it to my heart again? It used to be so easy, so natural. I never saw the person of the past that hurt me, just the new one of the moment that wanted to be forgiven and suddenly the person that hurt me didn't exist anymore. Every time. I guess it's harder when the sense of hurt isn't directed at a single person.

I'm human. I have a fight or flight instinct too.

ugh, sick. bed now.

 

[drich0150]

Drich. I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions towards me. I guess our experiences are a little bit different. I stopped wanting to belong at a pretty young age. It was just me, my books, and god. If someone came to me looking for companionship or someone to listen to their problems then I dutifully listened. Was unsurprised when they disappeared from my life again for a while because it wasn't cool to be seen around me, forgave them when they came back because I knew that forgiveness was important. Over and over and over. I never let it keep me down or change me. I took comfort and confidence in Christ and forgave every time. I participated in organized social activities. Church stuff, drama club, photography. stuff like that. When kids were mean to me I just looked at them with disdain really, and took comfort in the fact that when the chips were down I was somehow for some inexplicable reason still the one they came to for friendship. Go figure.

I truly, stupidly and naively, believed that Bible College would be different because everyone there would be as close to God as me and want to serve him and love him as much as me and feel keenly their brotherhood and sisterhood as much as me. Some did. Most didn't. Something happened that I'm still trying to understand. I think I might have a had a nervous break down because my hands haven't been steady since, even when I'm happy, comfy, relaxed, full of joy, what-have you. Bad nerves now and forever more. Maybe not letting it get me down translated to not dealing. Because down came the straw that broke me. I held it together until I got to my room. Then I collapsed on the floor shaking. Cried for hours and hours. I cried until my tears turned pink. When I was done crying I knew I was different. My husband is the only person I am truly at peace and completely in love with. He gets excited about the same things that I do. he understands what I'm on about when I start yammering on about Dystopia and Mythoepiea when others would just look at me like I'm an alien. I trust him. I know he wants what's best for me, sees the best in me, encourages me to be better. With his help I'm getting better at reaching out to other people too.

Plus or minus a few details i could have written a very similar story. But i think were we may differ is at my many oppertunities to succumb to the hurt and pain of my personal "pink tear" moments, I with all my heart sought after God's love, understanding, righteousness, and forgiveness. In these gifts of the Holy Spirit, I found it very difficult to hold on to hurt pain and anger.

Hurt pain and anger were like stones or a great burden, belonging to a life that i no longer was a part of. And as such I learned to walk away from those things. the only thing that it cost me was my personal pride. The Idea that i was a somebody to this world. That what i was, and could offer through my skills, Merritt and/or personality mattered, and would someday change the world.

Rather I let that self diluted person die during my last "pink tear" session. It was only when I died to my own ideas of self importance could i grow in the lord. Because humility and pride can not exist in the same Heart. So when the pride died, humility set up shop. It was then and only then, that I began seeing the fruit of the Holy Spirit in my life.

The funny thing is now that i don't want the things i wanted when i lived to self. i have them in abundance, and could let more come or all of it go. Because In life, or in death, whether my life is easy or hard, i know whatever i do i will do it for the Lord.

When I first got to that point (it is something that has to be maintained) My life changed dramatically, and Living the fruit bearing life became easier.

But how do I take that brain and put it in my heart and turn off the fear so that my brains decision to forgive makes it to my heart again?

Forgiveness does not mean you have to forget anything. It just means you hand over your rights or the debt that to the persons who sinned against you, owes you.. You give it to God in exchange for forgiveness of your sin. If we can not forgive then no matter how we view ourselves, or what we call ourselves our sins will not be forgiven.

This principle is illustrated by Jesus in Mat 18:

23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


For me this has always been a good motivator to help me see my way in the forgiveness of others.

 

[MyOwnSheep]

I don't beleive that these people weren't Christians or believers or whatever you wanna call it. I think they're just children, like me. Transformation isn't instant, it's a process and a decision of daily submission. I can't expect other people to be perfect anymore than I can expect it of myself.

But racist missionaries. That is just... argh! Which is funny because all the atheists and agnostics I know just assume the missionaries are most likely racist. They say it's all about having a superiority complex. I suppose that makes me naive.

the problem is the Christianity I knew claimed to be something different, something better, to have the patent on the One True and instead of only through Christ say 'Only through us'. Then I meet all these other people who show more love, seek with more passion, grow each day, and most certainly beleive in a relationship with a Personal God of all love - but aren't Christian. All of these things I was told was impossible, ideas that aren't supposed to be contained in other faiths ARE. And then I feel like I was lied to and I'm angry because I beleived it. A bit humiliating for someone with an IQ within the top percentile. Oh I had inklings and cowbells of but then how comes. I had plenty of questions and not enough answers. I pointed and asked about the wheat/chaff versus, and the sound mind. The answers never satisfied but ask too many questions and people think you're being argumentative. So I just trusted them, because they were adults in Christ and I was just a young upstart. I obeyed when I was told knowledge of other religions except through Christian sources was forbidden, to shun Wiccan books because they would let demons into my life, to never return to the Unitarian Church to ask about how they're different because they were a Cult.

In the end their cruelty set me free into the light. I'm free to learn, explore, question. Looking back at that dark box I was in is scary. So many people are still prisoners in ignorance. THe worst prison I can imagine is a prison of the mind.

Well hey. There it is. Going to Church and letting Christians into my life doesn't give them the power to shove me into a dark box again. I let it happen before because I didn't know any better. Now I do know better. I expected more of them than to have ignorance and hate. Now I just expect them to be human. So that can't hurt me again either. Fear gone.

Thanks!

 

[genifer]

Hey, I just wanted to add, while I havent read all the posts I skimmed them. Im typing in a hurry. Now, when dh and I were first married, about a year or so, we went to a church here in England where it later emerged that the preacher while he wasnt a racist, didnt agree with racial intermarriage. Dh took this rather personally, I think, well, it stuck with him. A mutual friend of ours and the pastors told us this after we stopped going. Now, a few years after we stopped going to that church the minister's wife died. He went on a missionary trip to Africa and came back with a black wife. This is a true story. People really can change. They are married still after some years, she is also a good 15-20 years younger then him. I just read so much of my dh's struggles in your posts and I thought it'd be helpful to share.

Dont leave Christ...

 

[aiki]

Perhaps you'd be more comfy in an appologetics section of the forum Akai. I'm through arguing with you and I'm not going to swap fruitless accusations with you. I think you don't understand me at all.

Well, I do find it difficult to know where you're coming from. It seems to me from the things you've written that you quite despise Christianity. Am I mistaken in this impression? I can see that you feel you have some grounds for thinking less of some of the Christians that you've met, but it seems you've used the bad experiences you've had with these folk as a springboard to a broader hatred of Christianity as a whole. Certainly, I think the prejudiced thinking of the Christians you described in your OP is wrong, but I couldn't agree with the other things you posted about my faith that seemed to tumble out of your unhappy experiences in Bible college. I began in this thread thinking to encourage a sister in the faith that not all Christians held to the mixed-race ideas that she found so offensive, but I soon found that the sister I thought I was writing to was actually an opponent of my faith - or at least that's how it seems...If I am completely mistaken in all this, please accept my apologies for so profoundly misunderstanding what you were writing.

You think the same of me, among other things. Let's leave it at that and part ways as there can be no meeting of minds here.

Actually, I don't know quite what to think about you. But, if you'd like me to cease my interaction with you, by all means I shall withdraw.

In an act of total dismissal you've said you think my words are nothing but meaningless rant. So I see no point in speaking with you any further. Goodbye.

Again, I'm sorry. I didn't wish to come across as dismissive. There did seem to me to be some venting of strong emotion in what you'd written and with it a lack of clarity. You were making some very strong negative assertions about Christianity which seemed to me to deserve to be challenged. I'm a rather blunt, matter-of-fact sort of person and sometimes, when people come here with sore spots, my less than delicate "touch" can be...painful.

Anyhoo...I hope others will be better able to help you sort through the antagonism you feel toward my faith. Maybe you might even give it a second look. I'll pray to that end (and I promise this will not lead to flaming rocks thrown through your window ).

Peace.

 

[Follow Christ]

I by no means intend to insult or offend you in any way. I love you and want you to be the happiest you could ever imagine. I want to start by introducing you or refamiliarizing you with the evangel of God. That Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was entombed, and that He has been raised the third day. This evangel (good news) is the power of God unto salvation. Through it, God justifies you, conciliates you to Himself, and vivifies you. If someones faith in this evangel is genuine, it is because it is graciously granted by God, for Christ's sake, to be believing on Him. In grace, through faith, are people saved, but this is not out of them, it is God's approach present, lest anyone should be boasting. I will tell you that God is love. Love is patient, is kind. Love is not jealous. Love is not bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not taking account of evil, is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth, is forgoing all, is believing all, is expecting all, is enduring all. Love is never lapsing. Now concerning those who have faith in the evangel. We all have experienced this love and grace of God through the death and resurrection of His Son, but some consider this saving work to be of themselves and so boast in it. We are advised to be walking in love, according as Christ also loves you, and gives Himself up for us, an approach present and a sacrifice to God, but the apostle Paul warns, "for the era will be when they will not tolerate sound teaching, but, their hearing being tickled, they will heap up for themselves teachers in accord with their own desires, and, indeed, they will be turning their hearing away from the truth, yet will be turned aside to myths." So, you should by no means expect the majority of believers in this present day to actually be following the ideal as set forth in the Scriptures. Remember, love is all those wonderful things I listed. People aren't perfect and so they will not always live up to that standard, but God always does. I love you and if you ever need anything, I'll do my best to help.