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It should be Murder?

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Nic Samojluk

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Answer the question. How are you going to differentiate between those women who 'innocently' suffered a miscarriage and those who caused a termination?

The same way we deal with other alleged crimes. Most crimes are never solved, and we do not file charges when the evidence is rather weak. Besides, we use common sense and ignore cases where pursuing them is impractical.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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You do not get to dictate what other people do with their bodies.

This is a Christian forum, and the Bible teaches that we do not own our own bodies. They belong to the one whose power designed and created our bodies.
 
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Nic Samojluk

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I prefer to error on the side that has a person.

Personhood is irrelevant when dealing with the right to life. If the entity is a human being, it has a right to life, a life granted by the one whose power guides the development of the unborn. You do not destroy a building simp0ly because the construction has not been completed. You have no right to use a wrecking machine on a building someone else is building. In this case the one in charge of the growth of the unborn is God.
 
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Belk

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This is a Christian forum, and the Bible teaches that we do not own our own bodies. They belong to the one whose power designed and created our bodies.

Goody for the bible. You are free to follow what you believe it's precepts to be. It has no place in US law however. The Lemon test requires a secular reason for a law.
 
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Belk

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Personhood is irrelevant when dealing with the right to life.

No, being a person is the ONLY relevant determinant in our legal framework.

If the entity is a human being, it has a right to life, a life granted by the one whose power guides the development of the unborn. You do not destroy a building simp0ly because the construction has not been completed. You have no right to use a wrecking machine on a building someone else is building. In this case the one in charge of the growth of the unborn is God.

You are not God and I do not recognize you as his deputized spokesperson on earth. God is more then capable of setting everything exactly how he wants it and he is superfluous to human laws. This is a matter of human laws so if you have no secular reasoning then we are done here.
 
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redleghunter

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Which is why, in the case of issues which produce a wide-range of values, ethics and opinions, we often consider it prudent to permit each individual to make their own assessment, rather than imposing a 'one size fits all' draconian law!

Are not all of our laws based on an absolute? For example, do this and this happens. Don't do this and something happens. If not there would not be laws but suggestions. Yes, there are different degrees of murder in our laws, however each is determined on a degree of pre-meditation or culpability. Yet there is no sliding scale of individual assessment, especially with the 'actor' of the action.

Yet, with regards to abortion in taking all values, ethics and opinions (which are subjective particulars) into account for abortion we ignore an absolute. The established science that someone of our being of the class of human is determined at conception. Taking the various values, ethics and opinions, as you mentioned, would it not be more enlightened of a modern scientific minded society to go with what we know and not take a 'guess' leaning on the various opinions?

Would not the logical approach be as the Aikido who say 'do no harm?' Meaning if we are not sure we take no action.

This would have to be a logical and ethical conclusion even for a non-religious secular adult human being. If we allow human life (which you do not deny at the very least is present at conception) to be defined by whim or popular opinion, don't we devalue human life to the point where other areas of human development outside the womb becomes debatable?

We have had too many of those definitions in our history (and today as well) of people, groups of people, governments, religions, despots defining what is human, not human or sub-human.

Using the model of 'wide-range of values, ethics and opinions' is a poor model because it has led to genocide, slavery and oppression.

For example, based on your model of ranging values, ethics and opinions we have such an opinion from Peter Singer:


"We can plausibly argue that we ought not to kill, against their will, self-aware beings who want to continue to live. We can see this as a violation of their autonomy, or a thwarting of their preferences. But why should a being’s potential to become rationally self-aware make it wrong to end its life before it has the capacity for rationality or self-awareness?

We have no obligation to allow every being with the potential to become a rational being to realise that potential. If it comes to a clash between the supposed interests of potentially rational but not yet conscious beings and the vital interests of actually rational women, we should give preference to the women every time."
(http://www.scotsman.com/news/analys...for-the-sake-of-the-unborn-1-2467196)---Peter Singer in Why it’s irrational to risk women’s lives for the sake of the unborn



If the above is not fraught and packed with the dangerous 19th and 20th century eugenics philosophers here's more from 21st Century Peter Singer:

"If life with quadriplegia is as good as life without it, there is no health benefit to be gained by curing it. That implication, no doubt, would have been vigorously rejected by someone like Christopher Reeve, who, after being paralyzed in an accident, campaigned for more research into ways of overcoming spinal-cord injuries. Disability advocates, it seems, are forced to choose between insisting that extending their lives is just as important as extending the lives of people without disabilities, and seeking public support for research into a cure for their condition. ("http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/19/magazine/19healthcare-t.html?_r=0)


Here he compares the worth of animals to human born babies:

Infants are sentient beings who are neither rational nor self- conscious. So if we turn to consider the infants in themselves, independently of the attitudes of their parents, since their species is not relevant to their moral status, the principles that govern the wrongness of killing non-human animals who are sentient but not rational or self-conscious must apply here too. As we saw, the most plausible arguments for attributing a right to life to a being apply only if there is some awareness of oneself as a being existing over time, or as a continuing mental self. Nor can respect for autonomy apply where there is no capacity for autonomy. (Taking Life: Humans Peter Singer Excerpted from Practical Ethics, 2nd edition, Cambridge, 1993, pp. 175-217) (http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/1993----.htm)
 
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rjs330

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The debate rises and falls on the argument of whether or not the baby in the womb is a human being or not. If the baby is a human being then purposely killing it is murder. If the baby is not a human being then it is not murder.
Those that are pro abortion have to believe the baby is not a human being until a certain stage of its development. Where that stage is, varies depending on the person making the argument. Once that stage arrives if the baby is aborted they must agree that it is murder. Otherwise they cannot believe that there is such a thing as murder. The pro life crowd believe that the baby is a human being from conception and an abortion at any stage of development is murder.

So let's assume that the pro lifers get their way and all abortion is outlawed. What happens when a mother is no longer pregnant. Well the ruling is the baby was a human being and is now dead. So the case must be investigated. The mother is asked to come to the police station and an interrogation is done. She has the right to remain silent if she chooses. Or she may talk.

What happens when there is a death of a child after it is born? There is an investigation into its death. Maybe the child fell down the stairs and broke it's neck. The parents are devastated but there is STILL an investigation into the death. There is nothing wrong with that. Just as there would be nothing wrong with investigating the death of an unborn child. As tragic as a miscarriage is to a mother who wants the baby it is no,more tragic than the loss of a child after it it born. We fully accept the investigation of a death of a child outside the womb. Why wouldn't we accept the investigation of the death of a child inside the womb?
Like I said. It rises and falls on the argument of is the child a child inside the womb or is it not. If it is not then when is it a child? That's the real question that must be answered.
 
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redleghunter

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And I showed you why your answer is woefully insufficient. History would show us that many, many abortions are performed regardless.

Your silly solution is akin to saying "just don't do it!" and expecting everyone to fall into line!

Not silly at all. We are not allowed to shoot through a front door and kill another person just because we 'think' they may cause us harm. We don't know. With abortion as you present it, there are unknowns to your definition of personhood. Or have you defined personhood? Even so, why would your definition be valid?
 
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redleghunter

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Why do we value democracy over tyranny? Why do we prefer freedom to slavery?

Do I really have to explain how we arrive at these values?

Ah, but we had to abolish slavery in the Western world by law. The law defined slavery as wrong and illegal.
 
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redleghunter

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I don 't have an exact point. I follow along with neurologists who say sometime around 24 weeks.

Why did you choose a neurological, scientific approach instead of what embryologists confirm?
 
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redleghunter

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Goody for the bible. You are free to follow what you believe it's precepts to be. It has no place in US law however. The Lemon test requires a secular reason for a law.

There's a problem with the Lemon test. You seculars just can't agree on when a human being becomes a person.

You leave it up to someone's subjective opinion on what they consider worthy life and unworthy life. That's a subjective approach which leads to just about as many opinions as there are people.

You may believe a society can live this way but ultimately it cannot. At some point you get a despot or regime which will feed your their subjective as the societal objective. Buyers beware.

Karma, as some say, kicks back hard.

Christians have a similar saying. "What we measure out, will be measured out to us."
 
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Belk

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There's a problem with the Lemon test. You seculars just can't agree on when a human being becomes a person.

That does happen on moral things since there is no way to measure morals.

You leave it up to someone's subjective opinion on what they consider worthy life and unworthy life. That's a subjective approach which leads to just about as many opinions as there are people.

That is correct. There are even people who decide life is important enough to not eat chicken.

You may believe a society can live this way but ultimately it cannot. At some point you get a despot or regime which will feed your their subjective as the societal objective. Buyers beware.

Society has existed this way since society has existed since there is no there alternative.

Karma, as some say, kicks back hard.

Christians have a similar saying. "What we measure out, will be measured out to us."


As it was, so shall it ever be.
 
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redleghunter

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Because embryologists don't "confirm" personhood.

Neither do neurologists determine 'personhood.' All they confirm is that a bunch of grey/white matter is properly synapsing with the central nervous system. That is purely a scientific approach. That you extract a certain type of brain function occurs at a certain time during pregnancy, is your subjective philosophical opinion of when a 'person' begins.

What do neurologists actually say about personhood?
 
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Belk

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Neither do neurologists determine 'personhood.' All they confirm is that a bunch of grey/white matter is properly synapsing with the central nervous system. That is purely a scientific approach. That you extract a certain type of brain function occurs at a certain time during pregnancy, is your subjective philosophical opinion of when a 'person' begins.

What do neurologists actually say about personhood?


Nothing. Person is a philosophical question not a scientific one. Science tells us what is, philosophy tells us what we should.
 
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