It seems

[djstav]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a great difference in the Christian believer and the average Joe or Jane.
They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking. I see no favourable side (Like God is actually making a difference exclusively for his own people)

It also seems that Christians are riddled with problems (Theological & Demonstrational) They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories. It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations. I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

 

[dysert]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a great difference in the Christian believer and the average Joe or Jane.
They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking. I see no favourable side (Like God is actually making a difference exclusively for his own people)

I want to be involved in this discussion, but tbh I feel a little unqualified. Plus, I want everyone to remember that I'm obviously not speaking for all Christians. My thoughts are simply my own. With those caveats aside, let me get the ball rolling...

I am saddened by the fact that there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between Christians and the non-Christian Joe/Jane. Personally, I believe there *should* be, or at the very least, the Christian should want there to be. There are exceptions, though. There was a difference between Billy Graham and Joe/Jane. There was a difference between Corrie Ten Boom and Joe/Jane. The are thousands more that aren't as famous. Christians should be different, but so many of us feel uncomfortable being different that we try living out our faith silently. I think that's why the Church is so much less powerful than it's intended to be.

It also seems that Christians are riddled with problems (Theological & Demonstrational) They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories. It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations. I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

Not sure what you mean by a "ground theory", but we have the Bible to test our theories against. If our theories aren't supported biblically, then they are suspect.

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

I think any problems here come from the misuse and/or misunderstanding of Scripture. There are the die-hard literalists who take every word literally, and that's how we end up with flat-earth people. Contrast that with the die-hard symbolists who treat everything in the Bible as a metaphor for something else. They end up with a Bible that means nothing.

I think the correct position is in between. When the Bible talks about the "windows of heaven" we need to figure out what message is actually being conveyed instead of assuming that there's a framed glass window in heaven. What is a window used for? Thoughts like these will get us closer to the intended meaning of the text.

The same is true for "pillars". What are pillars used for? What are their characteristics, etc. By going deeper into the meaning of the passage instead of just remaining at the surface of the words we're a lot closer to having a proper understanding of what the Bible is saying. And with a proper understanding, I don't think there are as many apparent inconsistencies vis à vis science as would first appear.

 

[djstav]

Here is a artist's rendition of the universal model (Biblical times)

 

[Sanoy]

When I became a Christian I was given no immunity to my sinful desires. When Jesus would say "Go and sin no more" He didn't give them any special power to do so. When Jesus tells us how to pray he tells us to pray against temptation Matthew 6:9-13. When I became saved a new creature was born in me that desired good for goodness sake, but there is still that old man in me that wants the opposite. Paul speaks of this in Romans 7:21-25

"So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

Regarding Genesis and our current knowledge of the universe I would say that before a comparison can be made we have to understand Genesis. We can't think about it anachronistically, we have to think about it based on what it is, when it was written, and the culture of the time. Genesis is not one book, but several combined together using a Toledot formula to combine them. The first book, in my opinion, and that of some Biblical scholars, is a liturgy that would be preformed over 7 days. Genesis 1 is very peculiar in the way it orders creation, especially given the sun and plants. However if this order were to be found true it would be inexplicable why the Israelites would have made it up this way. I study the ANE and follow the journals so I decided to read Genesis 1 in the mind of an ancient near eastern person and compare it to earth and biological history and put it in a short paper here (First 2 and half pages). Read appropriately, there is no contradiction between Genesis 1 and what we know of Geologic and biologic history. It's still not a science book, the purpose of the liturgy is to show how much God did to prepare the world for man.

 

[Sanoy]

Here is a artist's rendition of the universal model (Biblical times)View attachment 240282

I don't think we can say that they thought about these literally. This map is depicted no where in the ANE. I think much of this language here is a conceptual place holder that works. Pillars hold the earth up because that's what pillars do, they hold things up. The semantics of language can fill the necessary void when an observation cannot be made. They did think that they that they were really surrounded by water, but there were at least 3 different types of water and it's unclear what the different properties were in regards to the celestial sea. I don't think there is any evidence that they thought the world was flat. The verse that is commonly used for that conclusion is from Job 26:10, which most translations try to force into a flat earth view by bending either the first or second half of the verse. However if you look at the Hebrew these translations are nothing like what is written. Here is a literal translation taken from 2 different translations by choosing the portion that isn't bent...

"He has inscribed a circle on the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." - Job 26:10

The later half is referring to the promise of the heavens in Genesis 8:22. The first half refers to the band of the zodiac which is inscribed across the heavens by the apparent motion of the sun over a year.

There are other ANE accounts where a flat earth is supposed, like the legend of Etana where Etana rises to heaven and sees the circle of the ground below. Well all the maps at that time filled unknown areas with water. So, in the ANE, there is always going to be a circle of water where the known land rests in the middle like an Island, because that is how they conceptualized what was beyond the known world.

 

[Uber Genius]

They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories.

So this seems to be an ignorant claim.

Christians have been arguing the evidence since Peter and Paul in Acts.

Further we have philosophical arguments for theism and against atheism from PLATO and ARISTOTLE. Not to mention Augustine, Al Ghazali, Anselm, Aquinas, and hundreds of others.

We have cosmological arguments from contingency and the beginning of the universe that are between 2400 years and 1000 years old.

We have teleological arguments that again are similarly aged.

We have moral arguments from Plato.

So all you are proving is that you are unfamiliar with the majority of philosophy in the last 2500 years.

It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations.

Genetic fallacy.

I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

What you miss, and to be fair, is missed by intellectually immature Judeo-Christians as well, is that the Bible records people's view of culture and phenomena and engagement with God. It is a collection of people's experience of God that unfolds over 1500 years.

IT IS NOT A SCIENCE TEXT BOOK.

IT IS NOT REVELATORY QUA HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKS OR HOW MEDICINE WORKS, ETC.

It is only when we interpret the Bible anachronistically and without regard to exegesis, that we can create such strawmen as your pillar example.

So the ancient people perceived scientific facts naively? We could say the same about people writing in the early 1900s who rejected both Einstein's GTR and Quantum Mechanical theory. The only point you are making is that scientific knowledge develops over time through a scientific method, so what.
That the Bible is not revelatory qua science is not a controversial point, but if someone is naive to believe your strawman well then you have succeeded in providing a defeater to someone who was already ignorant of exegesis, and the nature of scripture, big deal.

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe.

How does a non-believer account for the beginning of the universe 13.7 billion years ago from nothing?

Anything that begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
Therefore the universe had a cause
sufficient to explain the creation of time, space, matter, and energy
The entity must be timeless and eternal to avoid infinite causal regress.
The entity must be extremely powerful to create ex nihilo.
The entity must be extremely knowledgeable to fine-tune the universe for life.
The entity must be immaterial to create matter.

Hmm only two beings meet even some of those requirements: abstract objects like numbers and sets are eternal and immaterial but are impotent (causally effete).

God of the Bible not of pantheism or polytheism or panentheism.

I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

God doesn't control have the same moral requirements that we do. He has a function as judge that humans don't have. He gives us commands based on his nature, but can judge people who are evil, and cultures like the canaanites who choose evil (you of course know what they did).

Further study of scripture will reveal that God was merciful to the enemies of his plans, in some cases allowing 400+ years to pass before he brought judgement.

 

[Tolworth John]

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

First of all would you explain how in your world view science, maths etc works?

Then would you explain where your ideas on morality come from and on what ideas are they based?

The science you know is based on Christian ideas.
That of a consistent and reasonable universe. That it is alright for man to enquire into how the universe functions.

 

[djstav]

If Christianity did have accurate evidence then none of it's precepts would have to be taken on faith. There's no logical stance the Christian can take when they can't actually make a case for Christ outside the Bible, as for "Religion" to bind. The Christian seems to be bound by the infallible word of God and must use that book exclusively. To say that "God can be proven else where" Gives life to the heretic.

 

[Albion]

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

You say that you don't see a difference between Christians and the average Joe, but that owes, more than people realize, to the Christians of history having formed our societal concepts. It is not just natural that we all believe in equality for all people, etc. It is because of Christianity.

So now we have arrived at a point where many people think that everything in our world that is good somehow came about because it always was, or it makes sense, or is obvious or something like that, when it is because of the Christian faith.

And as for the notion that the Christian God who taught love and redemption is just a brutal God, have you ever taken a look at the other world religious systems?

 

[Albion]

If Christianity did have accurate evidence then none of it's precepts would have to be taken on faith.

They aren't taken on faith.

 

[djstav]

First of all would you explain how in your world view science, maths etc works?

Then would you explain where your ideas on morality come from and on what ideas are they based?

The science you know is based on Christian ideas.
That of a consistent and reasonable universe. That it is alright for man to enquire into how the universe functions.

"Logical refinement is one thing, moral refinement is another"

Static moral refinement is the death of our society, we must learn and update our moral code or we won't survive.

 

[redleghunter]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a great difference in the Christian believer and the average Joe or Jane.
They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking. I see no favourable side (Like God is actually making a difference exclusively for his own people)

It also seems that Christians are riddled with problems (Theological & Demonstrational) They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories. It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations. I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

This is exploring Christianity. So welcome!

Right now you are in one of two spiritual conditions, dead or alive, serving in one of two spiritual kingdoms, that of the devil's or that of God's, and headed for one of two entirely different eternal places, God's Heavenly City or the Lake of Fire! Unless you have been saved — “born again” by the Spirit of God — then your sins separate you from God, your Creator and giver of life, and you cannot enter or even enjoy the kingdom of God, a place of “righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost” (Rm. 14:17). That leaves only one other place, a real place which is completely opposite of Heaven but just as eternal, a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Mt. 8:12).

You MUST be saved, but as a sinner (and all have sinned), you are completely unable to save yourself on any merit of our own, nor that of any church. The onlyperson that can save you is Jesus Christ, the Son sent byGod the Father to save sinners (1Tim. 1:15), by His shed blood and righteousness.

It is this Jesus "who did no sin," but "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil" by the power of the Holy Spirit (1Pet. 2:22; Acts 10:38). Yet after doing everything right, it was the sinless Son of God who took responsibility for all that we have done wrong, paying the price for the forgiveness of all our sins with His own sinless blood by His death on the cross, and was buried. As it is written, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, thejust for the unjust, that He might bring us to God" (Is. 53:6; 1Pet. 3:18).

But because Jesus alone was truly righteous, God the Father "raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory" (1Pet. 1:21), and who then appeared to many (1Cor. 15:3-8). It is this Jesus Christ who now reigns in Heaven as mankind's present Savior and future Judge!

It is because Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (cf. Jn. 1:1,14; 2Tim. 3:16) and paid for your sins and rose again, that only He can save you. God looks at your life and sees that your good deeds can never redeem you, while your sins condemn you. But looking at His own sinless Son, He declares that what He did is enough to save anyone who truly believes on Him.

However, now you must respond. You were put on this earth to make one big decision above all the others. What you do with the Lord Jesus Christ — whether you receive Him or reject Him — reveals what you truly love, darkness or light, sin or Him, and determines not only the course of the rest of your present life but also where you will spend ETERNITY! This is the Ultimate Decision which you must make positively ― if you will yet be saved. By not deciding for Christ, you have already in fact rejected Him!

It is our earnest and sincere prayer that, by the grace of God, you will not reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviorbut will believe God's word and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to save you from your sins, and then be baptized, and follow Him.

Do not play games with your soul and put it off! "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation" (2 Cor. 6:2). "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation" (Heb. 2:3)? Do not sin away your day of grace, and live and die in your sins and wake up in Hell — to your eternal horror! Instead may you know the life that only Jesus can give, both now and for eternity.

Listen and obey the word of exhortation God graciously gives you. "Seek ye the LORD while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon" (Is. 55:6, 7). Make your peace with God while you can, confessing yourself as a sinner in prayer to the LORD Jesus, and asking and trusting Him to saveyou. This decision is shown by being baptized in identification with your Lord, and following Him Who promises believers, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Heb. 13:5)

Those who truly believe will know both now and forever that they made the right decision, as to be saved and live for God is indeed the only right choice! And although in this world we will face real challenges to our faith, if we look to Jesus who said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world” (Jn. 16:33), we can overcome. Thanks be to God!

 

[Phil 1:21]

They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking.

Just a point of clarification: Christians do not seek their moral restraints by "current societal thinking." Christian morality is often 180 degrees from "current societal thinking," and rightfully so.

 

[Tolworth John]

Static moral refinement is the death of our society, we must learn and update our moral code or we won't survive

What you are saying is there is no such thing as moral absolutes.

That if it benefits someone to defraud others they can do so, or if it benefits society kill off the unwanted.

 

[Hawkins]

Here is a artist's rendition of the universal model (Biblical times)View attachment 240282

What makes you think that this is a model from Christianity?

Job 26:7 (NIV2011)
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.

 

[ViaCrucis]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a great difference in the Christian believer and the average Joe or Jane.
They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking. I see no favourable side (Like God is actually making a difference exclusively for his own people)

Coming from a Lutheran perspective I wouldn't expect Christians to be more moral than your average Joe or Jane. Because Christians are sinners, just the same as Joe and Jane.

I would also argue that the point of Christianity isn't "morality". That isn't to say that Christianity doesn't say we should be good, kind, just, etc (i.e. "moral"), because it does: God's Law tells us to love our neighbor, to turn the other cheek, to do unto others as we would have them do unto us (etc). But the point of Christianity isn't the Law, if one wants a system of thought (religious or otherwise) to tell them to be good neighbors, to treat others with kindness and respect, (etc) then that is nearly universal. Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, and just about every system of religion out there says to do good, be kind, love others, show compassion, help the needy, and so forth. To that end I don't need to be a Christian to know how I ought to behave.

What Christianity brings to the table, as far as the Law is concerned, is the recognition that we don't obey it. We should be good, loving, kind, just, compassionate, and merciful--but we aren't. To quote Martin Luther's Heidelberg Disputation, "The Law says 'Do this' and it is never done."

The point of Christianity is God's love for the world in Jesus, and what He has done. That God, in His kindness, takes sinners, redeems them, reconciles them to Himself, and adopts them as His own children so that we might have eternal life in the Age to Come and share in all the good things of God. We, who by our lawlessness and sin are hostile toward God are the objects of God's own perfect loving kindness, and He, in Jesus, is rescuing, redeeming, and healing the world and will bring all things to its glorious end in Him; and that by His own love and grace, takes us, and makes us part of that. Saving us.

It also seems that Christians are riddled with problems (Theological & Demonstrational) They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories. It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations. I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

If you want to understand the natural world, that's what science is for. Christianity isn't about adhering to any particular natural cosmology, and generally most Christians are perfectly fine using the tools of science for that purpose. Our Scriptures aren't there to tell us how the natural universe operates. The biblical authors wrote using the language they had, and using the world view they subscribed to; as such the language to describe the natural world relied on the cultural views of the ancient near east. And that is why we see talk of pillars, windows, or the earth being a circle--because that's how ancient bronze age people in the near east understood their world.

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe.

Many Christians, myself included, don't pit the Bible against science, but recognize that what the Bible has the cultures of the people who wrote it baked into it, so the Bible doesn't give me a competing theory of how the universe works, naturalistically, to that of science. As such, I recognize science as science, and Scripture as Scripture. I don't look to the Bible to tell me what the shape of the earth is, how old the universe is, or anything such as that, because that's not the point of the Bible in Christianity. I go to the Bible to meet Jesus and to hear God's word, the word of His forgiveness and love for the world in Jesus Christ. If I want to know how populations of organisms evolve over time, that's what science is for. If I want to know how old the earth is, that's what geology is for. Etc.

I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

In part, not much different to what I've described above: The culture and language of the time is baked into the text, and so we see the views of those who wrote the texts present therein. The historic, orthodox teaching of Christianity isn't that the Bible is God's revelation of God, but that Jesus Christ is God's revelation of God. Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. ... For from His fullness have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God/Son, who is at the Father's side, He has made Him known." - John 1:1,14,16-18

It is impossible to know God except by Jesus Christ who says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one can come to the Father except by Me" and "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".

The ancient prophets could talk about God and point to God, but Jesus Christ is Himself the very Word of God, the very Son of God, and uniquely shows us the Father as He is the only-begotten Son and Word of the Father made flesh (Hebrews 1:1-3).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[sea5763]

When it comes down to it, I don't see a great difference in the Christian believer and the average Joe or Jane.
They are both subject and conditioned by the moral restraints of our current societal thinking, and they both can break that thinking. I see no favourable side (Like God is actually making a difference exclusively for his own people)

It also seems that Christians are riddled with problems (Theological & Demonstrational) They have no ground theory and nothing to test their theories against, except to pick hole's in other peoples theories. It seems that the fear of the unknown fuels our desire to fill in the blanks, and this causes us to create ludicrous and superstitious explanations. I have read the Bible enough to know it has many outdated explanations of natural causes, like (The pillar's of the earth) & (Windows in heaven)

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe. I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

I think when you are evaluating Christianity, it should be based upon how Jesus led His life, not based on every day Christians who even according to the Bible are not without sin. Jesus Christ is who every Christian aspires to be like, but no one will be perfect like He is. You say that God brutal. The way I see it, God is perfect and I am not. God knows everything and I don't. I don't always understand why some of the things God ordered in the Old Testament, but at a certain point I have to realize that God is perfect, and trust His judgments. I'm the sinner and He is the holy one, and I've come to the conclusion that if my idea of what is right deviates from what God thinks is right, then it is only an example of my fallen nature showing.

 

[djstav]

I think when you are evaluating Christianity, it should be based upon how Jesus led His life, not based on every day Christians who even according to the Bible are not without sin. Jesus Christ is who every Christian aspires to be like, but no one will be perfect like He is. You say that God brutal. The way I see it, God is perfect and I am not. God knows everything and I don't. I don't always understand why some of the things God ordered in the Old Testament, but at a certain point I have to realize that God is perfect, and trust His judgments. I'm the sinner and He is the holy one, and I've come to the conclusion that if my idea of what is right deviates from what God thinks is right, then it is only an example of my fallen nature showing.

Luke 7:35 New International Version (NIV)
35 But wisdom is proved right by all her children.

 

[John Bowen]

There are many examples here's a few : Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you .He was speaking about a state of consciousness . Quantum physics says how a scientist thinks can effect the course of a experiment ( consciousness ). E=mc2 everything (matter ) is just really energy in the form of light.What appears solid is really made out of light. The first thing God said " Was let there be light " .

 

[Sketcher]

I am curious how Christians today square biblical explanations of the universe and our current knowledge of the universe.

The Bible isn't a science text.

I am curious how Christians today sqaure the moral brutality of their God with our current philosophy of equality for all people.

It depends on who you mean by "our" and what you mean by "equality." Personally, I don't see a conflict between God and human rights, because of what Christianity teaches about the nature of man, and that this teaching ultimately comes from God. Without God, there are no rights, only opinions.