It Just Doesn't Add Up

[Dream]

Lol, I didn’t mean to write love but live. How you live… You being sober and getting up and going to mass can speak a lot louder than words. Don’t cut people so short- they know better.

So at what point am I obligated to verbally inform them they are sinning?

Do I have to tell my roomate that he is committing a grave sin by not going to Mass or do I simply have to go to Mass every day?

 

[plainswolf]

So then the safest path must be to never learn what a mortal sin is. That way I have absolutely no chance of committing one.

CORRECT! It is our Catholic duty to educate ourselves. Esepcially in these matters. I would also agree that the more we know, then the more is expected of us......but also the greater the chance of merit for us in this.

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[Dream]

I’m still laughing over this… when are y’all going to just learn how to read Michelle?

Yea, it is pretty funny. Your post makes a lot more sense now.

 

[bigsierra]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

My friends are getting plastered right now, and I am obligated to inform them of their sin not by telling them, but by loving them? How does that teach them of their sin?

Love/Live, what's the difference? hehe

We all know what St. Francis said, about living by example. If they are getting trashed and want you to participate, you would be obliged not to and possibly explain why. You can't do that for every little thing you see with someone. You possibly might not have anyone left around you to witness to by your life if you did.

One thing about the Catholic faith, is that it always makes sense, and if it doesn't, then it's not the faith that is in question. It's possible to try to figure out ways to do things that you know you shouldn't be like setting up dominos and hoping they fall correctly so you can say your intent was pure, but only you and God really know.

Ever been to Nevada?

I have been to some pretty desolate places out West where it was 60 miles or so to the nearest Catholic Church. No, I can't give you specific town names, but I've been to some places where it was a good 100 miles to the next town of any size. It's not unheard of.

That may be. If you ever visit Nevada, just to get out of going to mass, I would say that would be a sin.

 

[Benedicta00]

So at what point am I obligated to verbally inform them they are sinning?

Do I have to tell my roomate that he is committing a grave sin by not going to Mass or do I simply have to go to Mass every day?

I already answer you in a additional post but you are not dealing with black and white but rather a lifestyle of sin. You need to pray for conversion, be that Christ that your friend needs in his life- you may be his only Christ he sees, so be that for him and when the opportunity to converses arises then there you go but I think you are looking at this from strictly a legalistic POV, and that is causing you some confusion.

 

[Dream]

That may be. If you ever visit Nevada, just to get out of going to mass, I would say that would be a sin.

Yep, there's some things that you just can't go on vacation from.

It would be like giving up Catholicism for Lent.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Well, I'll throw you a curve. I have a dispensation from my confessor that removes my obligation to attend Mass while on vacation. He says that there is a difference of intent in going on vacation to skip Mass vs skipping Mass while on vacation. He also gives me a dispensation for my job, as I am sometimes "on call" for over 24hrs on weekends, and he has allowed me to sleep, rather than attend Mass in a "sleep drunk" stupor.

I have basically learned it this way: Mass attendance is a discipline enforced by the Church. It is a mortal sin to refuse the discipline of the Church, as she is Christ's body on earth, but if I fully submit to the discipline of the Church and participate in the sacrements and follow the advice of a dully anointed Priest with valid Holy Orders, then I am not sinning. Priests of the church are allowed to grant dispensations on a case by case basis, if approved by the Bishop, I believe. My confessor is very good friends with the Bishop, so I do not think that he is a rogue priest.

I even remember a Bishop in Pittsburgh, PA granting the entire Irish community of Pittsburgh a dispensation to eat corned beef and cabbage on St. Patricks day when that day fell on a Friday during Lent


My only point is, if you are worried about sin, talk to your confessor, not us. He has Holy Orders, we don't

God Bless and peace be with you

 

[Paul S]

The St. Patrick's Day dispensation in the US has been quite common.

 

[Dream]

I love these threads.

There is intense discussion for a period of time, but then everybody suddenly exhausts all their points. The discussion ends as quickly as it starts.

(Not that I'm advocating we discuss the topic any further; I think it's all been covered already)

 

[Caedmon]

I think you are making a bad assumption. You do not need to know something is a "mortal sin" to commit a mortal sin. You simply need to know on some level it is wrong and then act against that prompting of conscience and it could be mortal for that person in that case. If what you said is true an unrepentant murder would be off without a hitch if he wasn't aware of Catholic theology even though he might well know murder is a very serious wrong to commit.

That sort of raising kids without any knowledge of Catholic theology would not guarantee they can't sin mortally.

Full knowlege doesn't = knowing Catholic theology. Full knowledge is knowing somehow -on some level or even just from societal norms that it is wrong, sufficiently reflecting on that and going ahead and committing that grave sin anyhow contrary to the knowledge you do have.

Doesn't someone also have to be aware of how grave an action is? If someone thinks that shop-lifting is comparable to a white lie, does that still make it a mortal sin?

 

[Caedmon]

Well, I'll throw you a curve. I have a dispensation from my confessor that removes my obligation to attend Mass while on vacation. He says that there is a difference of intent in going on vacation to skip Mass vs skipping Mass while on vacation. He also gives me a dispensation for my job, as I am sometimes "on call" for over 24hrs on weekends, and he has allowed me to sleep, rather than attend Mass in a "sleep drunk" stupor.

I have basically learned it this way: Mass attendance is a discipline enforced by the Church. It is a mortal sin to refuse the discipline of the Church, as she is Christ's body on earth, but if I fully submit to the discipline of the Church and participate in the sacrements and follow the advice of a dully anointed Priest with valid Holy Orders, then I am not sinning. Priests of the church are allowed to grant dispensations on a case by case basis, if approved by the Bishop, I believe. My confessor is very good friends with the Bishop, so I do not think that he is a rogue priest.

I even remember a Bishop in Pittsburgh, PA granting the entire Irish community of Pittsburgh a dispensation to eat corned beef and cabbage on St. Patricks day when that day fell on a Friday during Lent


My only point is, if you are worried about sin, talk to your confessor, not us. He has Holy Orders, we don't

God Bless and peace be with you

I didn't go to mass today because I'm still sick. I hope that wasn't a mortal sin. If I was well, I would have gone, because while I was still working for Wal*Mart, I had to work weekends, and didn't get to attend that often.

 

[Canadian75]

Missing mass seems to be one of those grave sins where the circumstances have a huge impact on whether the sin is venial or mortal. Someone who is sick, working, accidentally sleeping in or taking care of young children and is unable to make it to Sunday mass are not committing a mortal sin. I missed mass last weekend because I had to leave town before I had an opportunity to attend mass because I was on going to visit family who I haven't seen in nearly 20 years. It was either miss my family or miss mass (I also had to help my 65 year old uncle find the way to the place my visiting relatives were staying). I was told I was not committing a mortal sin because extenuating circumstances. Committing a sin which is grave does not automatically mean we are committing a mortal sin. This is a lesson I need to remind myself regularly, in order to maintain my sanity.

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

My friends are getting plastered right now, and I am obligated to inform them of their sin not by telling them, but by loving them? How does that teach them of their sin?

In this case, example is also a good witness. You could also let them know that it is a sin by stating what you believe. If you are invited next door to get drunk with the rest of them you could explain how that is contrary to Catholicism. Tell them what you believe, and that along with other example can show them what is meant by living a Godly life.

 

[marciadietrich]

Doesn't someone also have to be aware of how grave an action is? If someone thinks that shop-lifting is comparable to a white lie, does that still make it a mortal sin?

The determinate of graveness is in the act itself. There are factors that can lessen full knowledge or consent of will and lessen or eliminate culpability. IF someone had NO idea there was NO difference between the two, PERHAPS it would lessen their culpability.

Still, I find it hard to believe that someone would honestly believe shoplifting is EXACTLY equal to a white lie. People don't get arrested for a white lie to spare someone's feelings, nearly everyone would know that they could be arrested for shoplifting. Thus they take great pains to avoid getting caught. So society can have laws that impress on us right and wrong and degrees of seriousness. Society calls it crime instead of sin, but it does show us right and wrong in that case.

Where in the opposite fashion, when society is mistaken and accepts something that is sinful that would seem more likely to lessen culpability for someone who had never heard Catholic teaching, but if there are realizations that it is somehow wrong and they ignore that prompting of conscience, then there is a chance they are culpable. Only God would know for sure, and we are assured that Christ will be a just judge who understands us because in his humanity he was like us in all ways but sin.

Marcia

 

[Irenaeus]

You know Dream,

I had the same problem in Glacier National Park.

Did you know in St. Mary's, there is a Catholic Church?

 

[Dream]

You know Dream,

I had the same problem in Glacier National Park.

Did you know in St. Mary's, there is a Catholic Church?

I was just using that as an example. I figured Montana had to be a place without many open areas.

I have been to some places, though, that you feel like you're on a different planet. I remember one time we were in Utah and we wanted to get lunch. When we asked somebody where the nearest town was, it was 150 miles away in the opposite direction.

We didn't eat lunch that day.

 

[Dream]

The determinate of graveness is in the act itself. There are factors that can lessen full knowledge or consent of will and lessen or eliminate culpability. IF someone had NO idea there was NO difference between the two, PERHAPS it would lessen their culpability.

Still, I find it hard to believe that someone would honestly believe shoplifting is EXACTLY equal to a white lie. People don't get arrested for a white lie to spare someone's feelings, nearly everyone would know that they could be arrested for shoplifting. Thus they take great pains to avoid getting caught. So society can have laws that impress on us right and wrong and degrees of seriousness. Society calls it crime instead of sin, but it does show us right and wrong in that case.

Where in the opposite fashion, when society is mistaken and accepts something that is sinful that would seem more likely to lessen culpability for someone who had never heard Catholic teaching, but if there are realizations that it is somehow wrong and they ignore that prompting of conscience, then there is a chance they are culpable. Only God would know for sure, and we are assured that Christ will be a just judge who understands us because in his humanity he was like us in all ways but sin.

Marcia

This is the response that I got before when I asked about full knowledge.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1172205-full-knowledge.html

 

[Caedmon]

The determinate of graveness is in the act itself. There are factors that can lessen full knowledge or consent of will and lessen or eliminate culpability. IF someone had NO idea there was NO difference between the two, PERHAPS it would lessen their culpability.

Still, I find it hard to believe that someone would honestly believe shoplifting is EXACTLY equal to a white lie. People don't get arrested for a white lie to spare someone's feelings, nearly everyone would know that they could be arrested for shoplifting. Thus they take great pains to avoid getting caught. So society can have laws that impress on us right and wrong and degrees of seriousness. Society calls it crime instead of sin, but it does show us right and wrong in that case.

Where in the opposite fashion, when society is mistaken and accepts something that is sinful that would seem more likely to lessen culpability for someone who had never heard Catholic teaching, but if there are realizations that it is somehow wrong and they ignore that prompting of conscience, then there is a chance they are culpable. Only God would know for sure, and we are assured that Christ will be a just judge who understands us because in his humanity he was like us in all ways but sin.

Marcia

OK, let me rephrase it. Someone commits a grave sin, but the culture does not consider it to be a big deal. They know it's wrong, but it is not considered to be a serious sin. Is the sin still mortal?

 

[Caedmon]

This is the response that I got before when I asked about full knowledge.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1172205-full-knowledge.html

Thank you DreamTheater and Michelina. This post gives an accurate, concise, and satisfactory explanation: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=10954902&postcount=6