It Just Doesn't Add Up

[Benedicta00]

No, I myself am not sending him to Hell, but I am obviously taking part in the process. If I had never told him skipping Mass was a grave sin, then he would never have committed a mortal sin this way.

If you never told him, then you have committed a sin of occasion, or omission. You aren’t allowed to see someone in sin and not warn them, but what you are missing here is you are warning them, not damming them, their damnation is up to them and it does not depend on any contribution from you. IOW when we die, we will not be able to blame anyone else for our sins. He will not be able to point to you and say, I would not have committed a mortal sin if this guy would have just kept his mouth shut.
We all make our choices and we chose what we want.

 

[marciadietrich]

But this all goes back to the beginning again. One cannot committ a mortal sin if they never learn what a mortal sin is. Therefore one would have to conclude that never learning about a mortal sin is the safe way to go.

If I had children and raised them without informing them what a mortal sin is, I have done something wrong, but I can rest easy at night knowing my children aren't sinning mortally.

I think you are making a bad assumption. You do not need to know something is a "mortal sin" to commit a mortal sin. You simply need to know on some level it is wrong and then act against that prompting of conscience and it could be mortal for that person in that case. If what you said is true an unrepentant murder would be off without a hitch if he wasn't aware of Catholic theology even though he might well know murder is a very serious wrong to commit.

That sort of raising kids without any knowledge of Catholic theology would not guarantee they can't sin mortally.

Full knowlege doesn't = knowing Catholic theology. Full knowledge is knowing somehow -on some level or even just from societal norms that it is wrong, sufficiently reflecting on that and going ahead and committing that grave sin anyhow contrary to the knowledge you do have.

 

[Dream]

If you never told him, then you have committed a sin of occasion, or omission. You aren’t allowed to see someone in sin and not warn them, but what you are missing here is you are warning them, not damming them, their damnation is up to them and it does not depend on any contribution from you. IOW when we die, we will not be able to blame anyone else for our sins. He will not be able to point to you and say, I would not have committed a mortal sin if this guy would have just kept his mouth shut.
We all make our choices and we chose what we want.

Wait a minute, I required to inform people of their sin? Always?

So are you saying that it is my duty to tell all the "Chreasters" that they are sinning? Then how come the Priest never says this during Easter Mass?

As I type this, my roomate is next door getting drunk. Are you saying I am sinning because I am not warning him of his sin?

 

[Dream]

Full knowlege doesn't = knowing Catholic theology. Full knowledge is knowing somehow -on some level or even just from societal norms that it is wrong, sufficiently reflecting on that and going ahead and committing that grave sin anyhow contrary to the knowledge you do have.

This is contrary to what I have been taught. I have always been told that full knowledge means full knowledge of the gravity of the sin and not just the sinful nature of the action.

 

[Benedicta00]

It is, unless it's just too far to walk or drive. 80 miles is probably not too far, unless the roads are snowed over so it's too dangerous.

It would depend on the situation. 80 miles might not be possible for some to travel, sin is in the will. The intent. I know I talked to a priest about this very thing, not a vacation situation but a missed mass situation and the way it was put is it is in the intent- if you choose to miss mass because you are in rebellion, you are rejecting the church but if you miss mass because a of a situation even if it can be helped to a extent and it isn’t for the intent of rejection, then it isn’t a mortal sin per say. I may be but it would depend in the intent and the reason why you are missing. In a vacation scenario the way DT explained, I personally do not think that would be a sin. If the Church was 8 miles maybe but in a situation like that, then if the intent was to forget about Church or to blow it off for the sake of a vacation, maybe it is mortal but if no one knew the Church was over a hour away and it isn’t feasible to drive over there, possible but not very practical at all and you miss not because you want to but because it is really not practical then there is no sin but maybe venial.

Being on vacation is no excuse for leaving God at home.

I agree.

 

[bigsierra]

Glacier National Park? I think you would be ok, any where in that area. You could hit Saturday Vigil or do the Sunday thing. 80 miles would be a long ways to go. I would just try to fit it in around your schedule, when you're in town.

Churches

1 visits
Ascension (406) 338-5775 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sat: 4 PM ; On Southeast corner of town, East Glacier, MT, 59434, US


19 miles
20 visits
St. Mary (406) 338-5775 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sun: 11 AM ; Please help, travelers need an address, Babb, MT, 59411, US

25 miles
20 visits

West Glacier (406) 892-5142 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sat: 7 PM (Apgar Amphitheatre) Sat: 7 PM (Communion service) ; Apgar Amphitheatre, West Glacier, MT, 59921, US
26 miles
20 visits

Little Flower (406) 338-5775 Web Address Map Updated: 09/04/2004
Sat: 6:30 PM Sun: 9, 10:30 AM ; Monday thru Fri: 4 PM ; Holy Day: 7 PM ; 204- 1st.St. N.W., Browning, MT, 59417, US
33 miles
20 visits

Sacred Heart (406) 338-5775 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sun: 9 AM ; Starr School, Browning, MT, 59417, US
33 miles
20 visits

Sacred Heart (406) 338-5775 Map Updated: 02/18/2003
(Please help, travelers need address), Starr School, MT, 59417, US
35 miles
20 visits

St. Richard (406) 892-5142 Web Address Map Updated: 02/23/2003
Sat: 5 PM Sun: 9 AM (Memorial Day thru Labor Day), 10 AM (Labor day thru Memorial Day) ; Tuesday thru Thu: 8:30 AM ; Holy Day: 12:15 PM ; 1210 - 9th St. West (Hwy 2)., Columbia Falls, MT, 59912, US
39 miles
20 visits

St. Charles Borromeo (406) 862-2051 Web Address Map Updated: 08/30/2004
Sat: 5 PM Sun: 8, 10:30 AM ; Monday thru Thu: 8:30 AM ; Holy Day: 5:30 PM ; 230 Baker Ave., Whitefish, MT, 59937-2432, US
44 miles
20 visits

Risen Christ (406) 752-4219 Web Address Map Updated: 08/30/2004
Sat: 5 PM Sun: 9:30 AM ; (Call) ; Holy Day: (as announced) ; 65 W. Evergreen Dr., Kalispell, MT, 59901-2859, US
45 miles
20 visits

Holy Family (406) 338-2312 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sun: 9 AM ; Joe Shaw East Rd., Heart Butte, MT, 59448, US
45 miles
20 visits

St. Anne (406) 338-2312 Web Address Map Updated: 08/30/2004
Sun: 11 AM ; 10 PM ; (as announced) ; Holy Day: 7 PM ; Heart Butte Road, Heart Butte, MT, 59448, US
47 miles
20 visits

St. Matthew (406) 752-6788 Web Address Map Updated: 06/07/2004
Sat: 5 PM Sun: 8, 9:30, 11 AM ; Tue, Thu: 12:10 PM Wed, Fri: 7:15, 8:30 AM (School Year) Wed, Fri: 7:15 AM (June 3 to Aug. 30) ; 601 First Ave. West., Kalispell, MT, 59901, US
47 miles
20 visits

St. Catherine (406) 837-4846 Web Address Map Updated: 08/30/2004
Sat: 6 PM Sun: 11 AM (Labor to Memorial Day) Sun: 7, 11 AM (summer) ; Tue, Thu: 9 AM ; Holy Day: 7 PM ; 105 Oliver Lane, Bigfork, MT, 59911, US
48 miles
20 visits

Swan Valley Catholic Community (406) 754-2429 Map Updated: 02/23/2003
Sun: 9:30 AM (Memorial Day thru Labor Day), 10:30 AM (Labor Day thru Memorial Day) ; Beck Rd. between Mile Post 47&48, Swan Valley, MT, 59911, US
50 miles
20 visits

St. Anne (406) 837-4846 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sun: 9 AM ; Wed, Fri: 9 AM ; Holy Day: 9 AM ; Please help, travelers need an address, Somers, MT, 59932, US
56 miles
20 visits

St. Margaret (406) 873-4413 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sat: 6 PM Sun: 10:45 AM ; Tue: 12 noon Wed: 8:30 AM Thu: 9:30 AM ; Holy Day: (as announced) ; 207 2nd. St. S.E., Cut Bank, MT, 59427-3201, US
60 miles
20 visits

Holy Cross (406) 279-3327 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
(As announced) ; Please help, travelers need an address, Dupuyer, MT, 59432, US
63 miles
20 visits

St. Francis (406) 279-3327 Web Address Map Updated: 02/18/2003
Sun: 8:45 AM ; Holy Day: (as scheduled) ; 616-4th St., Valier, MT, 59486, US

One question I have, is what if you're backpacking and up in the mountains from one Friday till the next? Would Mass be required? I'm guessing not, due to proximity. It's kind of like when Bernadette is asked about what a sinner is, in the movie Song of Bernadette and she says someone that loves to sin, if I remember correctly. Being on vacation and making a best attempt, if possible, is not the same as just blowing off church. We actually can't see how God is going to judge that, as opposed to the person that willfully blows mass off all the time.

 

[ThereseOfLisieux]

But this all goes back to the beginning again. One cannot committ a mortal sin if they never learn what a mortal sin is. Therefore one would have to conclude that never learning about a mortal sin is the safe way to go.

If I had children and raised them without informing them what a mortal sin is, I have done something wrong, but I can rest easy at night knowing my children aren't sinning mortally.

Although your children are not sinning mortally, they are also not becoming Christ-like, which is the way to salvation. They are not gaining the holiness needed to enter heaven. These things whether mortal or not still move us away from God. Not going to Mass is certainly not helping with his salvation.

 

[Paul S]

It would depend on the situation. 80 miles might not be possible for some to travel, sin is in the will.

It does depend on the situation, but driving an hour or two to attend Mass is normally not unreasonable, even though it would cut into your vacation time.

 

[Dream]

Glacier National Park? I think you would be ok, any where in that area. You could hit Saturday Vigil or do the Sunday thing. 80 miles would be a long ways to go. I would just try to fit it in around your schedule, when you're in town.

Come on, you know I was just using that as an example. It was the first thing I could come up with.

 

[marciadietrich]

The Baltimore Catechism (No.2) phrases the full knowledge requirement as "sufficient reflection" and the gravity of the matter is objective based on the sin itself. Now, it might be hard to sufficiently reflect on a sin before committing it if you truly don't understand it is gravely serious ... so I think it would be less likely to commit mortal sin if you are not Catholic and using the pill (or missing Mass) then it is to sin mortally if you are not Catholic and commit a premeditated murder. But if you must know it is a mortal sin to commit a mortal sin I'm not sure how anyone prior to Christ could not be saved ... in their case they knew if an action was contrary to God's law. Or in the case of the invincibly ignorant they would know and be judged based on the prompting of their conscience.

If I'm wrong I'm open to correction.

 

[bigsierra]

Being on vacation is no excuse for leaving God at home.

Some of the best experiences I've had have been when I was out of town, at an unfamiliar church. I look forward to the opportunity. I would recommend taking advantage of the situation and visit an unfamiliar parish.

 

[Benedicta00]

Wait a minute, I required to inform people of their sin? Always?

So are you saying that it is my duty to tell all the "Chreasters" that they are sinning? Then how come the Priest never says this during Easter Mass?

As I type this, my roomate is next door getting drunk. Are you saying I am sinning because I am not warning him of his sin?

If you see someone about to walk into a man hole do you just let them walk and fall to their death? Yes you do have an obligation to warn others of their sin but we have to speak the truth in love not preach fire and brimstone and I don’t know about your parish but my priest does teach us and the school children whose parents do not attend mass regularly that they should.

You do not have to verbally warn, you can let people know by how you love as well.

 

[bigsierra]

Come on, you know I was just using that as an example. It was the first thing I could come up with.

I was using it as an example too. Where in the lower 48 states of the US would you end up 80 miles from a Catholic Church?

 

[Benedicta00]

This is contrary to what I have been taught. I have always been told that full knowledge means full knowledge of the gravity of the sin and not just the sinful nature of the action.

Nope, just a little knowledge goes a long way.

 

[Dream]

If you see someone about to walk into a man hole do you just let them walk and fall to their death? Yes you do have an obligation to warn others of their sin but we have to speak the truth in love not preach fire and brimstone and I don’t know about your parish but my priest does teach us and the school children whose parents do not attend mass regularly that they should.

You do not have to verbally warn, you can let people know by how you love as well.

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

My friends are getting plastered right now, and I am obligated to inform them of their sin not by telling them, but by loving them? How does that teach them of their sin?

 

[Benedicta00]

One question I have, is what if you're backpacking and up in the mountains from one Friday till the next? Would Mass be required? I'm guessing not, due to proximity. It's kind of like when Bernadette is asked about what a sinner is, in the movie Song of Bernadette and she says someone that loves to sin, if I remember correctly. Being on vacation and making a best attempt, if possible, is not the same as just blowing off church. We actually can't see how God is going to judge that, as opposed to the person that willfully blows mass off all the time.

Exactly.

 

[Paul S]

Wait a minute, I required to inform people of their sin? Always?

So are you saying that it is my duty to tell all the "Chreasters" that they are sinning? Then how come the Priest never says this during Easter Mass?

As I type this, my roomate is next door getting drunk. Are you saying I am sinning because I am not warning him of his sin?

In the book of Ezechiel, chapter 33, God tells his prophet that if he does not warn the sinner, Ezechiel is just as guilty as the sinner.

7 So thou, O son of man, I have made thee a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore thou shalt hear the word from my mouth, and shalt tell it them from me.
8 When I say to the wicked: O wicked man, thou shalt surely die: if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked man from his way: that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand.
9 But if thou tell the wicked man, that he may be converted from his ways, and he be not converted from his way he shall die in his iniquity: but thou hast delivered thy soul.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

My friends are getting plastered right now, and I am obligated to inform them of their sin not by telling them, but by loving them? How does that teach them of their sin?

Lol, I didn’t mean to write love but live. How you live… You being sober and getting up and going to mass can speak a lot louder than words. Don’t cut people so short- they know better.

 

[Dream]

I was using it as an example too. Where in the lower 48 states of the US would you end up 80 miles from a Catholic Church?

Ever been to Nevada?

I have been to some pretty desolate places out West where it was 60 miles or so to the nearest Catholic Church. No, I can't give you specific town names, but I've been to some places where it was a good 100 miles to the next town of any size. It's not unheard of.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm sorry, but I don't get it.

My friends are getting plastered right now, and I am obligated to inform them of their sin not by telling them, but by loving them? How does that teach them of their sin?

I’m still laughing over this… when are y’all going to just learn how to read Michelle?

Anyway Telling then now would not be recommend if they are getting drunk but in a sober moment when the time is right and the Holy Spirit allows you the opportunity, that is when you would be obligated.