It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

[packermann]

Superiority?

Although we Catholics feel that the Catholic Church as the only true church, we do not believe that only Catholics are true Christians.

The Catholic Church believes that many of our Protestant brothers and sisters are implicitly within the Catholic Church and will be in heaven. As long as a Protestant sincerely follows the light he has been given he will be saved. This does not just go for Christians, but even non-Christians. We are commanded not to judge, and since we believe that we are not saved by faith alone, we take this commandment very
seriously. I just will not risk my eternity in judging you.

But I wish this same kind of charity can be said of attitudes of some Protestant Christians toward us Catholics. While we look at Protestants as our separated brethren, I find some Protestants (including myself before I came back to the Church) who say that we are legalists and idolaters. Is that not judging me? Can anyone look into my heart and see I how feel about Jesus? And yet I run into some Protestants who assume that I love Mary or the Pope more than Jesus! They assume that I am only into the externals of religion instead of having a personal relationship with God. I can say that as far as I can examine my heart, that is just not true.

Since I came back to the Catholic faith, my faith, love and obediance for my Lord and Saviour has grown exponentially. Now, I cannot look into your heart. As far as I know, your love for Jesus may be much more than mine. That very well could be. I am such a terrible sinner. God had some very raw material to work with. I try not to compare myself to others. I can only compare myself to what I was before. And the difference in me now as a Catholic is mind-blowing. I cannot help to think that anyone, who desires to grow closer to Jesus than where they are now would find that in the Catholic Church. That does not mean that they are less spiritual than I am. They could all be more holier than than I. But I believe that no matter at what spiritual level that they are at now, the Catholic Church can bring them to a higher level.

Epiphoskei, may the Lord bless you. I enjoyed our discussion.

 

[Epiphoskei]

You must understand, that is still a very backhanded way of approving of protestants.

 

[heymikey80]

The Catholic Church believes that many of our Protestant brothers and sisters are implicitly within the Catholic Church and will be in heaven. As long as a Protestant sincerely follows the light he has been given he will be saved. This does not just go for Christians, but even non-Christians. We are commanded not to judge, and since we believe that we are not saved by faith alone, we take this commandment very
seriously. I just will not risk my eternity in judging you.

Lovely, so we're not really so much Christians as pretty-much pagan heathen that God accommodates and saves in our ignorance.

That is not found in Apostolic thought. The Roman church really just hits on positions that it wants to argue for a certain period, then moves on when the culture moves on past those arguments.

It galls me when there's an assertion someone tries not to do what they're actually doing at the time, it seems to me a classic inconsistency in argument. One would think that, in order not to do something, one would not do it. Especially when it's happening directly, and the person is fully aware of what they're doing. If it's wrong, Jesus condemns it with the word for "actor!". If it were right to do it, one would wonder why it'd be advocated.

 

[packermann]

You must understand, that is still a very backhanded way of approving of protestants.

To be honest with you, I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[packermann]

Lovely, so we're not really so much Christians as pretty-much pagan heathen that God accommodates and saves in our ignorance.

I never said you were pagan heathens.

And yet, you have the invinciblity of ignorance - which means that yoy are sincerely falling the light you see. What is wrong with that? I wished that all Protestants would feel the same way to us Catholics. But I think it is very hard to find a Protestant who believes that we worship Mary, that we deny the gospel of faith alone, that we treat the pope as a substitute of Christ and yet we still are saved if we are, from their perspective, sinning in ignorance.

How about you? Do you believe that we Catholics, embracing all the tenets of Catholicism to our death, can still go to heaven? If your answer, if no, then am I not at least being more charitable than you in seeing that I can see you remain a Protestant? If your answers if yes, then would it not be the same criteria that I sincerley believe that my Catholic practices are pleasing to God and I amn merely sinning out of ignorance?

That is not found in Apostolic thought.

Is "asking Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord" an apotolic thought? Where is that in the Bible? And what of the Trinity? The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible. No one is strictly binding himself to apostolic thought. Each has his own tradition and finds certain verses to support his tradition.

But actually, this position is supported in the Bible.

Jesus taught that he who sins ignorantly will receive a few whippings and he who sins deliberately will receive many.

Jesus said several places in the Bible the he who is given much, much more is required. So the more truth you have, the more you more judged. The less truth that you have, the less you will be judged.

Jesus said that Sodom and Gomorah will judge the religious leaders of His time because Sodom and and Gomorah sinned ignorant but the leader were exposed to the person and deeds of Jesus.

Paul in Romans, wrote that the Gentiles without the law by living according to the law written in their hearts, which is accusing or "perhaps excusing" on judgment.

The Roman church really just hits on positions that it wants to argue for a certain period, then moves on when the culture moves on past those arguments.

Yeah that's right. We all Catholics meet in a back room somewhere and conspired how we can fool you Protestants next.

It galls me when there's an assertion someone tries not to do what they're actually doing at the time, it seems to me a classic inconsistency in argument. One would think that, in order not to do something, one would not do it. Especially when it's happening directly, and the person is fully aware of what they're doing. If it's wrong, Jesus condemns it with the word for "actor!". If it were right to do it, one would wonder why it'd be advocated.

You now confuse me. You write "Especially when it's happening directly, and the person is fully aware of what they're doing". That is exactly the Catholic dontrine of the invincibility of ignorance. The more we are aware that what we are doing is wrong, the more accountable to God. Are you just saying this now because you are really just hitting on a position that you want to argue for a certain period, then move on when the culture moves on past those arguments?

So if it turns out that Catholicism is right, and you die a Protestant, you will be judged harshly or leniently based on how much you were aware that Catholicism is true.

And I hope you would be just as charitable to me and say that if it turns that if Catholicism is false, and I die a Catholic, I will be judged harshly or leniently based on how much I was aware that Catholicism is false.

 

[AndOne]

Forget the issues of the past with the Catholic church folks - take a good look at the modern day RCC - and how it covers up child sexual abuse scandal after scandal. It's not an isolated incident - we are talking thousands of people all over the world who have come out and reported such abuse after they have grown up. The fact that the abusing priests are not excommunicated should paint a clear picture of the state of this church. I for the life of me can't figure out how anyone would cross the Tiber to Rome in light of the perversion that has come to light in the past 20 years or so...

 

[packermann]

Non-Cathoilic scholar Phillip Jenkins has debunked the myth that the percentage of priests that have been guilty of pedophilia is higher than any men of any other professions, including Protestant ministers.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Forum: The myth of the 'pedophile priest'

Behe's Boy, it would be good for you to not be so quick to judge, as your slogan says.

 

[heymikey80]

I never said you were pagan heathens.

We're just being treated like pagan heathens, being lumped in with them as the statement asserts. "This does not just go for Christians, but even non-Christians."

And yet, you have the invinciblity of ignorance - which means that yoy are sincerely falling the light you see.

I'm sorry, did you miss the posting rules on this forum?

What is wrong with that? I wished that all Protestants would feel the same way to us Catholics. But I think it is very hard to find a Protestant who believes that we worship Mary, that we deny the gospel of faith alone, that we treat the pope as a substitute of Christ and yet we still are saved if we are, from their perspective, sinning in ignorance.

I'm sorry, in an attempt to simply your sentence: It's hard to find a Protestant who things Catholics are still saved by doing things where the Apostles say they wouldn't be saved because of it. Is that what you're saying?

Honestly, if Catholics thought dogmatically about their position, I doubt this would result.

Many Protestants do think that someone who ultimately relies on Christ alone -- whether Catholic or Protestant -- is saved. The issue is what the Apostles set up as Christianity. Not what the Pope set up.

How about you? Do you believe that we Catholics, embracing all the tenets of Catholicism to our death, can still go to heaven? If your answer, if no, then am I not at least being more charitable than you in seeing that I can see you remain a Protestant? If your answers if yes, then would it not be the same criteria that I sincerley believe that my Catholic practices are pleasing to God and I amn merely sinning out of ignorance?

Paul thought he was doing God a favor by persecuting Christians, too. Sincerity isn't the point. It dissipates the real point. I'd much prefer a gospel Catholic to an open door for those God has closed the door.

Oh, and btw, many Protestants do indeed disagree with me. Y'ever looked up the current slogans for the UMC?

Is "asking Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord" an apotolic thought?

"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." Lk 2:11, you mean?

Where is that in the Bible? And what of the Trinity? The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible.

That each Person is referred to in Scripture as a Person, and that God is essentially One, that's the meaning of the term in Christian thought.

Call it what you want, "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

No one is strictly binding himself to apostolic thought. Each has his own tradition and finds certain verses to support his tradition.

Most people who do something they have to justify will point out the similarities and not the differences. That's essentially why Protestants protested. It stretched the bounds of their credulity.

But actually, this position is supported in the Bible.

Jesus taught that he who sins ignorantly will receive a few whippings and he who sins deliberately will receive many.

Hm, maybe: "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, ‘We see,’ your guilt remains." John 9:41

Yeah that's right. We all Catholics meet in a back room somewhere and conspired how we can fool you Protestants next.

Nice of you to note that your church's convocations are not well-documented.

You now confuse me. You write "Especially when it's happening directly, and the person is fully aware of what they're doing". That is exactly the Catholic dontrine of the invincibility of ignorance.

Note John 9:41 again.

The more we are aware that what we are doing is wrong, the more accountable to God. Are you just saying this now because you are really just hitting on a position that you want to argue for a certain period, then move on when the culture moves on past those arguments?

No; I'm not Roman Catholic.

So if it turns out that Catholicism is right, and you die a Protestant, you will be judged harshly or leniently based on how much you were aware that Catholicism is true.

And I hope you would be just as charitable to me and say that if it turns that if Catholicism is false, and I die a Catholic, I will be judged harshly or leniently based on how much I was aware that Catholicism is false.

Sorry, gotta go with Jesus on this.

 

[nobdysfool]

Non-Cathoilic scholar Phillip Jenkins has debunked the myth that the percentage of priests that have been guilty of pedophilia is higher than any men of any other professions, including Protestant ministers.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Forum: The myth of the 'pedophile priest'

Behe's Boy, it would be good for you to not be so quick to judge, as your slogan says.

That still doesn't excuse the abuse that HAS gone on, and the seeming slowness of the RCC to stop it. It seems that your rejoinder is more along the lines of the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum, trying to say that since non-RCC clergy are also guilty of such things, then it's not as big an issue, when the exact opposite is true, it is MORE an issue because it goes beyond just the RCC. And, it seems to me that trying to say that celibacy has nothing to do with it is more like "whistling in the dark".

Celibacy is most definitely a factor, as are cultural conditions nowadays. Denial only prolongs the problem, and in so doing, exposes more children to abuse. The RCC would do more good by addressing, and taking steps to change their own stance and revisit the whole issue of celibacy in light of this, and lead the way in bringing an end to such abuse, rather than playing ostrich and pretending that there is no real problem....

 

[AndOne]

Non-Cathoilic scholar Phillip Jenkins has debunked the myth that the percentage of priests that have been guilty of pedophilia is higher than any men of any other professions, including Protestant ministers.

My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.

Forum: The myth of the 'pedophile priest'

Behe's Boy, it would be good for you to not be so quick to judge, as your slogan says.

Take it up with those who have been abused - see what they think of Jenkins' assesment.

There is no excuse whatsover for the RCC leadership - from the Pope on down to give those priests who have committed the abuse a pass. The fact that the same priest can abuse children for years - even after he has been reported is atrocious. Jenkins' needs to look at those facts in particular.

As far as judging - I'm just judging your church by its fruit - as I am supposed to do.

 

[packermann]

Take it up with those who have been abused - see what they think of Jenkins' assesment.

There is no excuse whatsover for the RCC leadership - from the Pope on down to give those priests who have committed the abuse a pass. The fact that the same priest can abuse children for years - even after he has been reported is atrocious. Jenkins' needs to look at those facts in particular.

Remember, Jenkins is a Protestant. No one is exusing what the priests for what they did. In it excusable - for priest AND ministers.

As far as judging - I'm just judging your church by its fruit - as I am supposed to do.

Less than .3 % of all priests are guilty of pedophilia. Condemn those .3%. I'll join you. I have no sympathy for priest or minister who have done it. But you are condemning the whole Catholic Church for what only a few have done. That is the grossest form of stereotyping. It is nothing but sheer prejudice.

 

[packermann]

You are not supposed to judge a whole church by what just .03% of the priests have done.

 

[AndOne]

Less than .3 % of all priests are guilty of pedophilia. Condemn those .3%. I'll join you. I have no sympathy for priest or minister who have done it. But you are condemning the whole Catholic Church for what only a few have done. That is the grossest form of stereotyping. It is nothing but sheer prejudice.

Not true - I'm not in a position to condemn.

And my issue with the Catholic church has little to do with the evil priests who have commited abuse - its how the Catholic Church itself handled the situation once those priests were identified by their abusers. Covered up and hidden - all to save face - rather than do the right thing.

And .3% - really? That's a joke - and the people who have been abused aren't laughing.

And yes - I am prejudiced against any organziation that allows pedophiles to flurish unhindered from within.

 

[VCViking]

Do you really want to take a census of how many of us know how much Greek here?

I have six semesters myself, and you don't need more than two to realize Spurgeon is correct here. (as an aside, we really need to give him a nickname, or it could get dicey telling the difference between who's quoting the pastor and who's quoting the poster. But regardless...)

οὕτω (like this)
γὰρ (for)
ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς (God loved)
τὸν κόσμον (the world),
ὥστε (that)
τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ (his only son)
ἔδωκεν (he gave),
ἵνα (so that)
πᾶς (all)
ὁ πιστεύων (the people who believe)
ἰς αὐτὸν (in him)
μὴ ἀπόληται, (will not perish)
ἀλλ᾿ (but)
ἔχῃ (have)
ζωὴν (life)
αἰώνιον (eternal)

My only disagreement is that I don't believe the translation we find in modern Bibles is wrong, I believe the modern English reader isn't trained to read his own language from 400 years ago. The King James was eloquent, and no one wants to be known as the guy who translated an ugly translation. Thus, all of our translations, no matter how they protest that they've been taken from the original texts, have the indelible mark of the KJV left on them. In Ye Earlie Moderne English, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him might not perish" does in fact mean "God loved the world like this: He gave his only son so all believers won't perish." Modern men simply have trouble understanding slightly more antiquarian uses of "so" "whosoever" and "might."

Exactly!

 

[packermann]

Not true - I'm not in a position to condemn.

And my issue with the Catholic church has little to do with the evil priests who have commited abuse - its how the Catholic Church itself handled the situation once those priests were identified by their abusers. Covered up and hidden - all to save face - rather than do the right thing.

And .3% - really? That's a joke - and the people who have been abused aren't laughing.

And yes - I am prejudiced against any organziation that allows pedophiles to flurish unhindered from within.

Did you read Jenkins article?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Not true - I'm not in a position to condemn.

And my issue with the Catholic church has little to do with the evil priests who have commited abuse - its how the Catholic Church itself handled the situation once those priests were identified by their abusers. Covered up and hidden - all to save face - rather than do the right thing.

And .3% - really? That's a joke - and the people who have been abused aren't laughing.

And yes - I am prejudiced against any organziation that allows pedophiles to flurish unhindered from within.

yuuup, well said. The ugly truth stick hurts!

 

[AndOne]

Did you read Jenkins article?

I browsed it - but what his article addresses really isn't relevant to what I'm trying to point out to people. What is relevant is how the leadership in your church has handled cases of abuse that have been reported to them by literally thousands of victims.

 

[packermann]

Due formatting errors, please see next post.

 

[packermann]

Not true - I'm not in a position to condemn.

And my issue with the Catholic church has little to do with the evil priests who have commited abuse - its how the Catholic Church itself handled the situation once those priests were identified by their abusers. Covered up and hidden - all to save face - rather than do the right thing.

At least you do not blame the whole Church for what a few individual, wicked priests have done. But you are inconsistent in blaming the whole Church what a few individual bishops have done.
But let’s say, just for the sake of argument, almost all the priests were guilty of pedophilia and just about all the bishops were guilty in cover-ups. Would that then discredit the Catholic Church? Not at all! Look at the Old Testament. Ever since God delivered Israel from Egypt, Israel totally unworthy of being chosen by God. They constantly fell into idolatry and all kinds of depravity. The even sacrificed their own children to the pagan god Baal. God raised prophets to tell then to repent. But instead Israel, killed them. But in spite of this God remained true to His covenant with Israel. God even commanded Hosea to marry a harlot who, of course, was unfaithful to Hosea; this symbolized Israel’s faithlessness to God. But in spite of their unfaithfulness, they still remained the People of God. The prophets never told the people to leave Israel and start a new nation. No, in the Old Testament, there was only one Temple and only one priestly system, and even if that system was so corrupt that was sacrificing their children to a pagan god, they were still bound to that system, to that Temple, and to that nation. No prophet told the people to separate from Israel and start a new People of God. So even if the immorality and faithlessness was running rampant in the Church, I would still remain faithful to God with His Church. As the Protestant song goes, “Though none go with me, still I follow”. Even though we are faithless, God is faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I do not want to paint a totally bleak picture of Israel of the Old Testament. Just when things were the darkest, God drew them back to Himself. And if you studied the history of the Catholic Church, you would that the Church has gone through its ups and downs. But when it looked like the Church was going to totally break down and disappear forever, God would bring them back. In the fourth century, the Church was besieged by Arianism, the heresy which denied the full deity of Christ. It was so rampant in the Church, that all the bishops except for St Athanasius were Arian. And just when it looked like the Church would be lost in heresy, God brought it back. This is all God’s doing. We Catholics are terrible sinners. It is because of the grace of God the Church stands today. If it was left to us, the Church would have crumbled into non-existence long ago.

So if your contention if that our bishops have feet of clay, I would whole heartedly agree with you. But that is what astonishes me the most. We have this treasure in earthen vessels. Only by the grace of God do we stand.

And yes - I am prejudiced against any organziation that allows pedophiles to flurish unhindered from within.

I hate to point fingers at other churches, but I feel it is necessary to show that no Church, Catholic or Protestant, is beyond guilt in pedophilia.

If you are prejudiced against any organization that allows pedophilia to flourish, then are you also prejudiced against Protestant churches?

June 15, 2007
BY ROSE FRENCH
NASHVILLE, Tenn. -- The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.
The figures offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down -- the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.
Religious groups and victims' supporters have been interested in the figure ever since the Roman Catholic sex abuse crisis hit five years ago. The church has revealed that there have been 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clerics since 1950 -- 228 a year.
Protestant numbers have been harder to come by because the denominations are less centralized than the Catholic church. Some of the only numbers come from three insurance companies -- Church Mutual Insurance Co., GuideOne Insurance Co. and Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Co. Together, they represent a large chunk of all U.S. Protestant churches

As cited in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=275x5312

And how about the Baptists?

So many Baptist clergy could not possibly get away with so much abuse unless many others were complicit in turning a blind eye. Why do Baptist leaders tolerate the presence of ministerial colleagues who sexually abuse the young and vulnerable? Why do people in the pews not rise up and demand that their leaders be held accountable? Where's the outrage?
Why don't people at Bellevue Baptist in Memphis demand the resignation of Pastor Steve Gaines, who admittedly kept quiet about a staff minister's sexual abuse of a kid?
Why don't people at Trinity Baptist demand the resignation of Pastor Tom Messer, about whom there is significant evidence that he knew of a minister's serial sexual abuse of kids?
Why do so many people act as though clergy-abuse cover-ups are no big deal?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2709296/posts

And how about the Lutheran Church?

Bishop Maria Jepsen, the first woman to be anointed bishop in the Lutheran Church, resigned on July 16 having recognized that her credibility had been put into doubt, with respect to numerous cases of sexual abuse committed within her church.
Ordained bishop in 1992, Bishop Jepsen transferred Pastor Dieter K. in 1999 to a prison chaplaincy in order to prevent further contact with children. However, according to Der Spiegel, she did not notify anyone of suspicions that the Lutheran pastor had sexually abused minor. Pastor Dieter K. gave religion classes at an institute in Ahrensburgh even while no one at the school had been notified of his record of abuse

http://www.speroforum.com/a/36724/Lutheran-female-bishop-resigns-in-pedophile-coverup-scandal

And check here for the pedophile scandal in the Anglican Church

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_Anglican_Diocese_of_Sydney

I hate to bring up the dirt on other churches. I do not believe that the Catholic clergy is any better in this area than the clergy in other churches. But there are not any worse. I think it deplorable for the clergy to do this, the hierarchy in the churches (all of them) cover it up.

We cannot blame this in one church. It is not happening just in the Catholic Church, or the Baptist Church, or the Lutheran Church. The problem is with our culture. Ever since the 1960’s, we have been living in a free-love culture. If it feels good, do it. Even the latest Psychiatric Journal wrote the pedophilia can be a positive experience for the child. How sick is that! But this is the culture we are living in, and all our churches are having leaders who are conforming to the world, instead of standing on the side of truth. We have free access to porn on the internet, our movies all show the importance of sex, and our music describe sex in the most degrading way. Homosexuality is accepted as a valid lifestyle.

The real villain in all these pedophilia is not any church, it is the Satan, who is the prince of this world. While we are pointing fingers at each other, Satan is down there laughing.

 

[cygnusx1]

the issue isn't merely horrendous sin , but far worse , Horrendous sin being granted a cloak , THAT is the issue , and that is the real reason RCC attendance figures have dramatically slumped.