It is a fact that the mormons made the same mistake the JW's did..

[joneysd]

No it's not. We are judged according to our works. If we love Him, we will follow His commandments - His words - not mine. If we love Him, we will also enter His covenant, and I do so freely. Amen.

If we are judged on our works what was the point of Jesus's sacrifice?

 

[s0journ3r]

No it's not. We are judged according to our works. If we love Him, we will follow His commandments - His words - not mine. If we love Him, we will also enter His covenant, and I do so freely. Amen.

Following Christ is a fruit of salvation, not the cause of it. Paul speaks of having a righteousness not of our own, but here you're talking about having our own righteousness. Someone has to be wrong. It's either you or Paul.

And speaking of following Christ and His commandments, you aren't doing that if you're LDS. According to Christ, the greatest of all the commandments is that there is only one God. Yet Mormonism believes in an infinite number of Gods, three of which are over this planet alone. So you're not even obeying that essential command anyway.

Think about it.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[s0journ3r]

It begins with baptism - pretty basic stuff.

Yet baptism is not part of the gospel. Strange.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

Yet baptism is not part of the gospel. Strange.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

Which Gospel?

Matthew says:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 

[s0journ3r]

Which Gospel?

Matthew says:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

This one:

1 Corinthians 1:17 - For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.​

Baptism is a response to the gospel, not a part of it. The gospel is good news. The good news is that we don't have to rely on our works of righteousness but on a righteousness that is not our own: Christ's righteousness. If I have to perform for God to save me, how is that good news?

Titus 3:5 :: he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit​

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

If we are judged on our works what was the point of Jesus's sacrifice?

Jesus sacrifice was a "work". The disciples performed their "works" so you could understand. Without those "works", do you think you would know of spiritual truth?

If the truth doesn't have works, it dies, as James said.

I'm glad the disciples didn't listen to people who may have the same beliefs you suggest.

 

[s0journ3r]

Jesus sacrifice was a "work". The disciples performed their "works" so you could understand. Without those "works", do you think you would know of spiritual truth?

If the truth doesn't have works, it dies, as James said.

I'm glad the disciples didn't listen to people who may have the same beliefs you suggest.

Jesus' work isn't our work. It's His. And we're saved by His work, not our or anyone else's work. If Jesus' work isn't sufficient to save, what is? His alone was perfect.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

This one:

1 Corinthians 1:17 - For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.​

Baptism is a response to the gospel, not a part of it. The gospel is good news. The good news is that we don't have to rely on our works of righteousness but on a righteousness that is not our own: Christ's righteousness. If I have to perform for God to save me, how is that good news?

Titus 3:5 :: he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit​

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

I see. I study beyond the Catholic theology and don't accept a partial Gospel.

Maybe we should throw away my verse from Matthew so Paul can be right. I do believe that water baptism is nothing but a ritual (physical). But the baptism of spirit (anointing) is essential.

But to each their own. Some believe they are saved believing a few verses thrown in the Bible and just sit around waiting for death now.

I'm not one of them.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.- Philip

 

[s0journ3r]

I see. I study beyond the Catholic theology and don't accept a partial Gospel.

Maybe we should throw away my verse from Matthew so Paul can be right. I do believe that water baptism is nothing but a ritual (physical). But the baptism of spirit (anointing) is essential.

But to each their own. Some believe they are saved believing a few verses thrown in the Bible and just sit around waiting for death now.

I'm not one of them.

The chrism is superior to baptism, for it is from the word "Chrism" that we have been called "Christians," certainly not because of the word "baptism". And it is because of the chrism that "the Christ" has his name. For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us. He who has been anointed possesses everything. He possesses the resurrection, the light, the cross, the Holy Spirit. The Father gave him this in the bridal chamber; he merely accepted (the gift). The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father. This is the Kingdom of Heaven.- Philip

I'm sorry if you think the Bible isn't consistent in its message of salvation. The baptism spoken of in Matthew isn't the baptism of the Holy Spirit since Jesus calls upon men to carry out such baptisms. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something God does, not man. So trying to change that around isn't going to work. We're talking about water baptism and it is not a part of the gospel.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

Jesus' work isn't our work. It's His. And we're saved by His work, not our or anyone else's work. If Jesus' work isn't sufficient to save, what is? His alone was perfect.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

So, you sit (saved) and wait?

"Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life. For the word is like a grain of wheat; when someone had sown it, he had faith in it; and when it had sprouted, he loved it, because he had seen many grains in place of one. And when he had worked, he was saved, because he had prepared it for food, (and) again he left (some) to sow. So also can you yourselves receive the kingdom of heaven; unless you receive this through knowledge, you will not be able to find it." -Apocryphon of James


The Catholics have you buffaloed, IMO.

The obvious answer is to not believe James, because the bishops didn't include it (300 years after the crucifixion). But his sheep hear his voice, IMO.

 

[Phantasman]

I'm sorry if you think the Bible isn't consistent in its message of salvation. The baptism spoken of in Matthew isn't the baptism of the Holy Spirit since Jesus calls upon men to carry out such baptisms. Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something God does, not man. So trying to change that around isn't going to work. We're talking about water baptism and it is not a part of the gospel.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

I never said "water" baptism was. You said the Gospel never says "baptism". I showed you it did.

 

[s0journ3r]

So, you sit (saved) and wait?

"Become earnest about the word! For as to the word, its first part is faith; the second, love; the third, works; for from these comes life. For the word is like a grain of wheat; when someone had sown it, he had faith in it; and when it had sprouted, he loved it, because he had seen many grains in place of one. And when he had worked, he was saved, because he had prepared it for food, (and) again he left (some) to sow. So also can you yourselves receive the kingdom of heaven; unless you receive this through knowledge, you will not be able to find it." -Apocryphon of James


The Catholics have you buffaloed, IMO.

The obvious answer is to not believe James, because the bishops didn't include it (300 years after the crucifixion). But his sheep hear his voice, IMO.

Not sure why you are bringing Roman Catholicism into this since their soteriology has nothing in common with what I've been saying, in fact it's antithetical to everything I've been saying.

Do I "sit and wait"? Um, no. I do what is expected of me - howbeit imperfectly. That's true of everyone. And those who boast that they are doing better than others are usually the ones who are beset with secret sins. Those who realize that they are saved by grace alone will not boast or think they're better than anyone else because they know very well that they are where they are not because of something in them or something they did but because of the sovereign grace of God alone. And it's a result of this grace that leads and guides them to do what which is pleasing in His sight - not "sit and wait."

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[s0journ3r]

I never said "water" baptism was. You said the Gospel never says "baptism". I showed you it did.

The context is water baptism. The verse you quoted to somehow reprove what I said refers to water baptism. So while you didn't say water baptism, the passages you used did. And I showed you how the passages you used don't hint that water baptism is part of the gospel.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

Not sure why you are bringing Roman Catholicism into this since their soteriology has nothing in common with what I've been saying, in fact it's antithetical to everything I've been saying.

Do I "sit and wait"? Um, no. I do what is expected of me - howbeit imperfectly. That's true of everyone. And those who boast that they are doing better than others are usually the ones who are beset with secret sins. Those who realize that they are saved by grace alone will not boast or think they're better than anyone else because they know very well that they are where they are not because of something in them or something they did but because of the sovereign grace of God alone. And it's a result of this grace that leads and guides them to do what which is pleasing in His sight - not "sit and wait."

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

So, works are evident that you are doing "something", if anything. Gods will, I will suppose.

The parable of sowing seeds says a lot. I see it as those who sow them on rocks, without works.

"Work"ing the Gospel, allows it to grow.

Perception of the kingdom comes from how much wisdom we each find and understand, by the teachings given us by the Son. Where we find that wisdom is each mans (and womans) choice.

 

[Phantasman]

The context is water baptism.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

Mormonfreind said it "began" with baptism.

You said:
Yet baptism is not part of the gospel. Strange.

Maybe you should define your rebuttals more clearly, as the rebuttal is not scriptural.

 

[s0journ3r]

So, works are evident that you are doing "something", if anything. Gods will, I will suppose.

The parable of sowing seeds says a lot. I see it as those who sow them on rocks, without works.

"Work"ing the Gospel, allows it to grow.

Perception of the kingdom comes from how much wisdom we each find and understand, by the teachings given us by the Son. Where we find that wisdom is each mans (and womans) choice.

Naturally, one cannot understand the things of God. They're spiritually discerned. One must be born again by the Spirit of God before they can understand the things of God and God does this by His sovereign choice.

If God is waiting for men & women to choose, of themselves, to understand these things: He's setting Himself up to be disappointed.

And if one is where they are because of something they did (e.g., understood something better than another) then they have cause to boast whereas the Bible tells us that no one can boast when it comes to the matter of salvation since no one is saved because of anything they've done. So either we can boast or we can't. My view makes no room for boasting while yours does. That alone should tell people something.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[s0journ3r]

Mormonfreind said it "began" with baptism.

You said:
Yet baptism is not part of the gospel. Strange.

Maybe you should define your rebuttals more clearly, as the rebuttal is not scriptural.

I believe I was pretty clear. Anyone who knows anything about LDS doctrine would've been able to understand what I said. Perhaps you need to educate yourself instead of railing accusations against others.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Phantasman]

Naturally, one cannot understand the things of God. They're spiritually discerned. One must be born again by the Spirit of God before they can understand the things of God and God does this by His sovereign choice.

If God is waiting for men & women to choose, of themselves, to understand these things: He's setting Himself up to be disappointed. I don't serve a being, though.

And if one is where they are because of something they did (e.g., understood something better than another) then they have cause to boast whereas the Bible tells us that no one can boast when it comes to the matter of salvation since no one is saved by one anything they've done. So either we can boast or we can't. My view makes no room for boasting while yours does. That alone should tell people something.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

I boast of nothing. Defining my views through your own definitions? Just call me a heretic, I'd prefer that.

Following the Codex Vaticanus as where all truth lies, is what I meant by Catholic thought. It has many branches.

The Holy Spirit is the root of all truth. Seek it instead of where others tell you it is.

 

[Phantasman]

I believe I was pretty clear. Anyone who knows anything about LDS doctrine would've been able to understand what I said. Perhaps you need to educate yourself instead of railing accusations against others.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

I lived in Utah (Provo). I read much of the BoM. I am not LDS. Nor Calvin.

My 40+ years of study is not in vain.

 

[s0journ3r]

I boast of nothing. Defining my views through your own definitions? Just call me a heretic, I'd prefer that.

Whether you are consistent with your own theology is not my problem. Your teaching makes room for boasting. That's the point.

Following the Codex Vaticanus as where all truth lies, is what I meant by Catholic thought. It has many branches.

So you think the Roman Catholic Church wrote what is codified in the Codex Vaticanus?

The Holy Spirit is the root of all truth. Seek it instead of where others tell you it is.

I know very well who the Holy Spirit is.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner