It is a fact that the mormons made the same mistake the JW's did..

[s0journ3r]

I lived in Utah (Provo). I read much of the BoM. I am not LDS. Nor Calvin.

My 40+ years of study is not in vain.

I never mentioned Calvin so not sure why you're bringing him into this. If you're familiar with the teachings of Mormonism and you've been following the discussion, I do not see why you would have an issue with what I said.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Jack Terrence]

I agree that it was to shortly take place. The desolation of abomination had to destroy Jerusalem and the temple. - just a scant 40 yrs after the crucifixion. Revelation has been getting fulfilled ever since, and will still be getting fulfilled for another 1000 yrs. Your reading that it all had to take place in a 100 yr period is just baloney imo. Nothing there makes preterism right, while there is lots of scriptures which make it wrong.

About the abomination of desolation Jesus said,

"These be the days of vengence that ALL THINGS written might be fulfilled."

Was Jesus serving "baloney" too?

 

[RevelationTestament]

About the abomination of desolation Jesus said,

"These be the days of vengence that ALL THINGS might be fulfilled."

Was Jesus serving "baloney" too?

No my friend. The abomination of Desolation - Rome - is still at work....And the day of vengeance upon her is to come. Then maybe she will finally realize that through the ages she has persecuted honest worshipers and the saints of God for power and monetary gain....

 

[RevelationTestament]

I would like to thank all of you for this very educating discussion.
Even with my experience in both the LDS and non-LDS Christian community there is an awful lot that I don't remember (for reasons we can discuss another time), and while I think that a couple of you are off kilter a little bit in some areas, there is quite a bit of accuracy here. You may not see it, but it's there.
Thanks guys.

If you are in any part referring to me, you are welcome friend.

 

[Jack Terrence]

No my friend. The abomination of Desolation - Rome - is still at work....And the day of vengeance upon her is to come. Then maybe she will finally realize that through the ages she has persecuted honest worshipers and the saints of God for power and monetary gain....

No Rev. Jesus said, "THESE be the days of vengance that ALL things written might be fulfilled."

"These" days were the days in which Jesus and the apostles lived. "ALL things written" were fulfilled in those days.

Anyone who denies the bible's own time frame is a false prophet. You may draw the inference about yourself.

 

[RevelationTestament]

No Rev. Jesus said, "THESE be the days of vengance that ALL things written might be fulfilled."

"These" days were the days in which Jesus and the apostles lived. "ALL things written" were fulfilled in those days.

Anyone who denies the bible's own time frame is a false prophet. You may draw the inference about yourself.

I don't prophesy. I interpret somewhat like yourself, except my interpretation is led by the spirit of God, and not 3 different seminary schools. Everyone here is interpreting, so does that make them all false prophets by your standard? Before you became preterist were you a "false prophet?"
I would appreciate it if you would stop this tendency of yours. You aren't as bad as 3 yrs ago when I first met you, but you still tend to see everyone who disagrees with you as false deceivers.

 

[Jack Terrence]

I don't prophesy. I interpret somewhat like yourself, except my interpretation is led by the spirit of God

Everyone makes this claim so it is meaningless.

Everyone here is interpreting, so does that make them all false prophets by your standard? Before you became preterist were you a "false prophet?"

Preterists do not predict the future. They do not look at the CNN news and say "this is the fulfillment of prophecy." This would have meant nothing to the saints to whom the word was originally given. They just trust the words of Jesus and the apostles about the timing of events.

I would appreciate it if you would stop this tendency of yours. You aren't as bad as 3 yrs ago when I first met you, but you still tend to see everyone who disagrees with you as false deceivers.

Please take the beam out of your own eye. The Mormon church teaches that all churches except the Mormon Church are an abomination in the sight of God. Mormons especially identify the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.

 

[RevelationTestament]

The difference being I don't call every belief of yours I disagree with "false prophecy." I don't even know what church you attend if any. That doesn't matter to me in my interaction with you. You tend to lump me into the "false deceiver because a mormon" category instead of dealing with the gospel points I make.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Mormons especially identify the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.

Actually, they don't. I do.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Actually, they don't. I do.

Yes they do. And you do also. So take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck out of mine.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Yes they do. And you do also. So take the beam out of your own eye before taking the speck out of mine.

It's not my fault they fulfill the prophecies. I have no beam to pluck.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The difference being I don't call every belief of yours I disagree with "false prophecy."

I don't call every belief of yours a false prophecy. But your association of the Catholic Church or any "false" church with the Revelation is indeed false prophecy. The audience to whom the Revelation was given had to know the identity of the harlot. Therefore, the harlot had to have been in existence in their day.

To say that the harlot was an entity that was not in existence for another 300 years would have made no sense to them.

The prologue begins by saying that the things which John saw would "SHORTLY come to pass" for the "time is NEAR."

Does common sense play any role at all in biblical interpretation for you?

 

[RevelationTestament]

I don't call every belief of yours a false prophecy. But your association of the Catholic Church or any "false" church with the Revelation is indeed false prophecy. The audience to whom the Revelation was given had to know the identity of the harlot. Therefore, the harlot had to have been in existence in their day.

To say that the harlot was an entity that was not in existence for another 300 years would have made no sense to them.

The prologue begins by saying that the things which John saw would "SHORTLY come to pass" for the "time is NEAR."

Does common sense play any role at all in biblical interpretation for you?

yes it does. And Revelation tells us the woman would go into the wilderness for 1260 days, which prophetically is 1260 yrs in both Revelation and Daniel. Therefore, the fact that the prophecy started soon or in the days of the disciples does NOT mean it ended then as well.
Yes they did know the harlot woman. Peter identified Rome as Babylon in his writings because he knew she was the woman on the beast or the spirit was telling him so.

 

[Jack Terrence]

It's not my fault they fulfill the prophecies. I have no beam to pluck.

Arrogant! If you were living in John's day preaching this stuff you would have left the people scratching their heads. They would have said,

"Apostate Israel is the harlot. What's all this mumbo jumbo about a Catholic Church? We have never heard of it. "

 

[RevelationTestament]

Arrogant! If you were living in John's day preaching this stuff you would have left the people scratching their heads. They would have said,

"Apostate Israel is the harlot. What's all this mumbo jumbo about a Catholic Church? We have never heard of it. "

It is not arrogant to believe a prophecy is fulfilled.
Someone has to fulfill it. You just believe a different group fulfills it. Sorry if you are on the wrong side of the coin, but you can always approach the subject with an open mind and see your folly.

BTW at the time of John's writing of Revelation, your interpretation may even place the "prophecy" in the past, ie the temple could well have already been destroyed. What kind of logic is that mate?

The fact that they hadn't heard of a "catholic church" also goes to show that it is NOT the original church of christ, but one of the later man-made imposters. Think about it. It was not the church set up by Christ by your own admission.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The fact that they hadn't heard of a "catholic church" also goes to show that it is NOT the original church of christ, but one of the later man-made imposters.

No! The harlot was apostate Israel. Nothing else would have made sense to the ORIGINAL audience. Any interpretation that makes the prophecy incomprehensible to the ORIGINAL audience is patently wrong.

It was not the church set up by Christ by your own admission.

Where did I say that? Christ founded Israel His church out of Egypt. But she became apostate. She became the harlot.

 

[RevelationTestament]

No! The harlot was apostate Israel. Nothing else would have made sense to the ORIGINAL audience. Any interpretation that makes the prophecy incomprehensible to the ORIGINAL audience is patently wrong.

Where did I say that? Christ founded Israel His church out of Egypt. But she became apostate. She became the harlot.

Yeah, but you also said the original listeners would not know anything about a "catholic" church, and would not know what I am talking about. Therefore, by your own admission the Catholic Church was not yet set up, and was not the Church set up by Christ.

 

[Phantasman]

I never mentioned Calvin so not sure why you're bringing him into this. If you're familiar with the teachings of Mormonism and you've been following the discussion, I do not see why you would have an issue with what I said.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

The love of God, Christ, Holy Spirit isn't justified by any religion. The heart knows these things, not out of mans teachings, but the spiritual understanding that comes from God, who is spirit. If you place no merit on works, then the works of the LDS shouldn't concern you. The love of God comes to different people in different ways. But if it's the same God, why should we have issues. This has been going on since Cain and Abel.

Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good man brings forth good from his storehouse; an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things." -Gospel of Thomas

If one finds God through the LDS, isn't it better than one who doesn't through another belief? Searching for Christ and Gods will isn't limited to one thing.

Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." -Thomas

Remember Hosanna? And Christ saying even the stones could cry out?Some lift their own stones and split their own wood. I commend them, as that is where truth is hidden, IMO.

 

[s0journ3r]

The love of God, Christ, Holy Spirit isn't justified by any religion. The heart knows these things, not out of mans teachings, but the spiritual understanding that comes from God, who is spirit. If you place no merit on works, then the works of the LDS shouldn't concern you. The love of God comes to different people in different ways. But if it's the same God, why should we have issues. This has been going on since Cain and Abel.

Jesus said, "Grapes are not harvested from thorns, nor are figs gathered from thistles, for they do not produce fruit. A good man brings forth good from his storehouse; an evil man brings forth evil things from his evil storehouse, which is in his heart, and says evil things. For out of the abundance of the heart he brings forth evil things." -Gospel of Thomas

If one finds God through the LDS, isn't it better than one who doesn't through another belief? Searching for Christ and Gods will isn't limited to one thing.

Jesus said, "It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the all. From me did the all come forth, and unto me did the all extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there." -Thomas

Remember Hosanna? And Christ saying even the stones could cry out?Some lift their own stones and split their own wood. I commend them, as that is where truth is hidden, IMO.

Sounds like you have a relativistic worldview. If God can be different things to different people, you have a flood of self-contradictory nonsense - not beliefs worth sharing and defending.

Yours truly in Christ,
sojourner

 

[Jack Terrence]

Yeah, but you also said the original listeners would not know anything about a "catholic" church, and would not know what I am talking about. Therefore, by your own admission the Catholic Church was not yet set up, and was not the Church set up by Christ.

Correct! And neither was the Mormon Church set up by Christ. So, you cannot say that the harlot is the Catholic Church and I cannot say that she is the Mormon Church. The original audience would not have known what we are talking about.

Only apostate Israel of Apostolic times could fulfill the harlot prophecy.