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Issues with reading the old testament

Discussion in 'Requests for Christian Advice' started by Eishiba, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. Eishiba

    Eishiba Newbie

    In Relationship
    So the more I started to read the old testament and find myself utterly depressed by reading it. Each time I read something, I read things that sound strange. I pray to God for help but I feel as if he is hiding or just not there. Unfortunately I am cursed for life as a skeptic and there is no way for me to change that. I just try to trust that God knows what he is doing. But reading these things makes me think...

    Numbers 14:18
    The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    Now, if you think about this, to me, it sounds like I'm hearing..."God has alot of mercy and forgives everything and everyone, but because of this, the generations later on shall suffer for it."

    I really see no other way to look at that. Thats not very forgiving. I have no children, but lets assume I have a 15 year old son who does a sin against me, like lies, or steals something from me, and then asks me to forgive him. I would forgive him, but I would probably punish him for it. I would hope he learns a lesson from it. But I would NOT wait until he has his own child and make that child suffer for what my son did. Can someone clear this up?

    Another one is Numbers 15:32-36
    And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
    So let me get this straight. Because the man gathered sticks...for whatever reason...was supposed to be stoned? How can anyone derive morality from such a thing? I dont mean to make it sound like a joke but are we still expected to do this ourselves? The sad part is, Jesus said in Luke 14:5
    Then he asked them, “If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?”

    If Jesus just confirmed that it was alright to heal on the sabbath and then asked about what would the people do in this situation, which seems to be an ok thing to do.

    These things just dont make sense to me and God doesn't seem near at the moment. Can someone help me understand what I'm reading please?
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Willie T

    Willie T St. Petersburg Vineyard

    Do you understand the point of the Bible? I mean, what is the whole book for, anyway?
  3. parsley

    parsley .

    There are definitely hard spots in the Bible, and we won't immediately understand why things were said.

    There are parts we would expect to reflect upon, consider why, and mull over in our minds for a long time. We are accustomed to learning things quickly, and this pace goes against our grain.

    There are things we need to look up and dig deeper into. There is no harm in finding out if the translation was a little off, or blanks were filled in. I run across these all the time -- passages that don't make sense until I look up the word definitions.

    (Studylight.org has lexicons and definitions)

    I am not defending stoning, but think through the whole Sabbath concept. Employers were not allowed to make people work every day of the week, or to work their animals without rest, or to expect the grandma to be cooking for family when everyone else takes a day off.

    The sabbath needed to be firm in order to maintain fair labor practices. I wouldn't recommend stoning... but when the law was given, they had no other way of stopping a criminal in their tracks. They were out in the desert, in tents, with no government.

    Stoning would not be acceptable now, but we use prisons and police cars and cuffs to stop a criminal.
  4. Armistead14

    Armistead14 Newbie

    The Levitical law can seem very cruel because it's attached to God. You have to understand all tribes and cultures attached their laws as if direct from their God. The question you have to answer is do you believe God ordained these laws or were they cultural laws of the day.

    For instance, if a woman didn't bleed on her wedding night, no proof of the red sheet, she could be put to death. However, we know now about 30% of women lose their hymen not from sex, but some other physical activity, such as hard work, horseback riding, etc...Imagine how a woman felt knowing she was a virgin, but didn't bleed on her wedding night and faced being stoned to death.....Do you think that came from God or a male controlled cultural law?

    Another instance, if a man attacked another man and his wife came to help him, if she grabbed the attacker or hit his privates, her hand could be cut off. You think that came from God?

    Learn to separate cultural law from moral law.
  5. parsley

    parsley .

    Numbers 14:18

    Take a look at the words one by one:

    Search for: Numbers 14:18 - Strong's Interlinear Bible Search - Reference Desk - StudyLight.org

    The first half speaks of forgiveness, and the other half speaks of not ignoring crimes. A crime sometimes incurred a debt that needed to be paid off -- whether financial, or working it off, or some other agreement.

    Say for instance someone stole your car and totaled it, with no insurance coverage.
    Imagine they beg to pay you back and make it up to you, but they can't right away. They offer to pay you in installments, and wash your replacement car for two years, and mow your lawn for free to work off some of the debt.

    Then imagine that he moved to Florida, with no forwarding address. You might knock on his brother's door, or their kids' home, and remind them that he owed you for the stolen car. You would expect them to help compensate for the loss. They are the other generations.

    I would guess the verse is less spiritual-lofty than practical-down-to-earth. I might be wrong, but digging into the possible interpretations helps me understand and even value why God might persist in upholding justice. Criminals can't just harm people and run, leaving victims undefended.
  6. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

    This is just a fact of life. Old sins cast long shadows, as the saying goes.

    Look at David: he committed adultery with Bathsheba, and had multiple wives. The consequences of that included:
    • A totally dysfunctional family
    • David's son Amnon raping his half-sister Tamar (2 Samuel 13)
    • David's other son Absalom killing Amnon (2 Samuel 13)
    • War between Absolom and David (2 Samuel 15)
    • Polygamy by his son Solomon (1 Kings 11)
    • A foolish grandson, a collapsing kingdom, and a decaying royal line (1 Kings 12)

    However, if I was you, I'd start by reading the New Testament, and getting into the O.T. later, with guidance.
  7. turned around

    turned around Newbie

    Hi Eis,
    Do you realize if you're in Christ you're not under OC. Another fact is the OC was between the Lord God and Israel. Try reading Romans through Phileom a few times. Let the Holy Spirit take you gradually through the OC.

    Grace to you.
  8. Eishiba

    Eishiba Newbie

    In Relationship
    Yes, but collection agencys dont family members into the picture expecting them to pay because they can't get what they are owed. You could choose to help that family member out of debt but thats not the same thing. This is having everything forced on you.
  9. BFine

    BFine Seed Planter

    Calvary Chapel
    In response to Numbers 15:32-36--

    If you go up to Numbers 15:27-31
    Read what that says…then continue downward to the man
    being taken before Moses etc.-- The people didn't know what
    to do with the man so they inquired of Moses, who inquired
    of the Lord as to what should happen to the man.

    No one knew if the man had gathered sticks unintentionally or not.
    The only one who did know was God-- God sees the heart/motives.
    God saw that the man sinned intentionally and said the man was to
    be put to death.

    The man sinned intentionally.
    You see, God can't be fooled nor did does he give the order to kill someone
    just for "the fun of it."

    Side note:
    [If you recall from chapter 14 of Numbers, a lot of the
    people were in rebellion against God…so much so, that God said that the
    grumblers would die in the wilderness-- only Joshua, Caleb and the children
    of the grumblers would enter into the Promise Land.]

    Reading the Bible:
    For either: new Christian, struggling Christian, "Seeker etc...

    The Old Testament "foreshadows" Jesus Christ and the New Testament is sharply focused on Jesus Christ, it makes pretty good sense to start reading the Bible with any of the four gospels.

    The Gospel of John
    The Gospel of Mark
    I John
    II John
    III John
    The Gospel of Luke
    The Gospel of Matthew
    I Corinthians
    II Corinthians
    Proverbs --Where you go from there is up to you.

    I also recommend joining a Bible study group and or connecting
    with a mature Christian who can mentor you.
  10. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    The man who gathered firewood had contempt for God's holy day. However, letting an animal out of distress is in fact a different matter. Jewish teachers understood this, hence the voluminous rules they had on what one could and could not do on the Sabbath. Many of them were so strict on this though, that they did not see that healing a person as permissible. Jesus of course showed that just as letting an animal out of distress was permissible, that healing a sick or injured person was permissible.

    Concerning Numbers 14:18, read Exodus 20:5-6 for the whole truth concerning this matter:

    "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments."
  11. LoricaLady

    LoricaLady YHWH's Supporter

    First, you must realize that the Laws under which the ancient Israelis lived were somewhat (not completely at all, but I'll get to that) different from what we live under.

    There is no longer any Temple since 40 A.D. The Levitical priesthood, which were instrumental in making sure the laws were carried out, were pretty much scattered to the wind at that time. Consequently it is just not possible for us to follow all the Laws based on the Temple. We still have Laws to follow though! We still have to keep the Commandments, for example, we still have to tithe, etc.

    The Law regarding stoning someone (again under the rulership of the Temple and its priesthood) for breaking the Sabbath may seem hard to you, but you must remember that YHWH, aka God, knows better than we do. This was a special time when He was teaching people to learn, and follow, His Commandments. And He wasn't fooling around about it. The Sabbath is the very sign, the longest Commandment, between Abba and His people, as we are told. It is a time when people are to pull away from the world, rest, even have their servants and animals rest not go our own ways, but devote the time to Him.

    Is that asking too much? Hasn't He given us all we have? Even scientific research has shown that a weekly day of rest helps one to be healthier. Just because it doesn't make sense to our basically corrupt (as the Bible states) self serving human selves, that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I am not saying people should be stoned now. Again, we are not operating according to the Mosaic Law in full since the Temple and the priesthood are not operating today as commanded in the Bible.

    Many people think that Messiah was changing the Sabbath laws, and other laws, by misinterpretations of what is described in the Bible. The truth is He upheld the Law of Moses every time. Yes, he did say "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." If it was made for man that doesn't mean we discard it, but keep it! But we are not to keep it based on the oral, man made laws of the Pharisees, however. (These oral add ons are still very much in effect today, as you can see in a very fascinating way by watching Nehemiah Gordon, who rejected his upbringing as a Phrarisee, in the vid The Greek Jesus vs. The Hebrew Yeshua, on Youtubbe.)

    Some examples: When a man Messiah healed was told to pick up his mat and go home the Pharisees were indignant. They accused Messiah of breaking the Sabbath laws. But! There is nothing in the Torah, "Old" Testament, saying you can't carry a little thing like a mat on the Sabbath. They knew He was "breaking" their oral laws, their "traditions of men." They, not the Bible, said that carrying anything like a mat was breaking the Sabbath. Now if you are thinking of little sticks for a fire as being similar to carrying a mat, that is not the case. Building a fire was a big project in those days. If the man was picking up sticks he was planning to do some serious, hard work. What is so difficult about gathering the necessary equipment during the week so that one can rest on the Sabbath? Nothing really. He was just being defiant.

    We have another "tradition of men" (there are so very many) in our own time, where people feel they have to go to Church on Sundays. Some people worry about loved ones getting to Heaven because they don't do that. But the word "Church" is just a Greek translation from the Hebrew word "ecclesia", meaning a gathering of believers. It's interpretation as a big building where people to go to worship on Sundays was unheard of for quite some centuries.

    Back to Messiah "changing" the Sabbath. He actually told people, for the time after His ascension when the Romans would take over Jerusalem, to pray that their flight would not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. He expected them to still be resting on the Sabbath!

    And there is nothing in Scriptures saying we can't heal on the Sabbath. As the animal in the pit illustrates, if there was an emergency, then mercy was in order. Also, how much "work" was it for Messiah, the Lord of all, to simply speak a sentence to heal someone? All the Pharisees' own angry sentences after He healed, indignant grumbling and accusing, were beyond doubt much more work! No, the Pharisees were not operating out of the Bible, but out of their own man made oral traditions. Messiah berated them for replacing the Law of Moses with "traditions of men." Not once did He ever berate them for keeping the Law, and He always did so Himself.

    Look at the story of the woman caught in adultery. The "Old" Testament is supposedly being overturned there since she was not stoned. No, she was exempted by Messiah from stoning because things were not being done according to Torah (as they are not being done in our day according to Temple regulations and the Torah since, again, the Temple is gone.) The Law said both the man and the woman were to be brought forward and stoned. Only the woman was brought forward. There had to be witnesses. The witnesses were scattered after Messiah wrote something in the sand. The woman was therefore, by Mosaic Law, NOT to be stoned. In this condition where the Temple Laws and regulations were not being upheld, Messiah showed her mercy in the face of her (hypocritical, since they weren't keeping the Torah themselves) persecuters. However, we can be sure that adultery is still a sin as He did tell her "Go and sin no more."

    It seems that we, too, are being shown mercy in certain areas where we have not been brought up in, or lived in, the times when it was more possible to follow all the Laws of the Torah.

    "YHWH changes not". "The heart of man is desperately wicked and corrupt above all things." We are not to think our ways are better than His, or even to grumble about His ways. He knows all. We don't. He's in charge. We're way not.

    Praying for great wisdom for you in regard to the true Word of YHWH, aka God.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2014
  12. Quasicentennial

    Quasicentennial Member

    Our future-coming Jesus Christ who is a new-born resurrected spiritual being has powers of supernatural victory so immeasurably powerful, it becomes second nature once we become newly transformed brothers and sisters of Christ with perfect minds and bodies:.
    Having the new mind of Christ compared to our earth-born minds will be so superior, I can imagine how we as new transformed brothers and sisters of Christ will be able to understand the Word of God as it was meant to be interpreted with such speed and accuracy, what would take years to understand every old and new testament book with our earth-born minds would most probably only take seconds with our superfast thinking and memory-perfected minds of Christ:.
    Believe it or not, on some TV documentary this week, an experiment was made with a genius chimpanzee to remember the position of several numbers on a computer screen then touch each number in order from small to large, once the numbers have been covered by a square tile. Only problem is it's all done in a blink of an eye where the chimpanzee has almost a kind of superfast photographic memory.:
    Now we all know that God created Earth and all life on it, and this shocking experiment discovery on ingenious animals just goes to show what Jesus will promise us that is much more what we would expect besides eternal youth and health, to be absolutely ingenious fast-thinking brothers and sisters of Christ with pure righteousness and peace as we become socially active inside the most advanced free-for-all home accommodation city: the kingdom of God on a new Earth .;'*';. Rev 21:2
  13. DiscipleHeLovesToo

    DiscipleHeLovesToo Regular Member Supporter

    United States
    there are two ways to approach God; based on your qualifications, or based on His mercy and grace. if you feel you are qualified, then you must be absolutely perfect in your thinking and actions - so far only Jesus attained this level of complete righteousness (as He WAS God in a flesh body), and according to God's word, no one else ever will. oddly, most people choose this approach, so God gave the law - a standard so strict that no one could keep it, in order to drive people to despair of being qualified to know God, and seek Him based on His mercy and grace instead.

    what the Bible does not say is as important as what it does say - the Bible does not say that God had the man stoned for picking up sticks on the sabbath day - it says that men brought this accusation against the man, and that God told them to stone him - most people assume that God's reason for having the man stoned was because he picked up sticks on the sabbath day, but the Bible does not clearly say this. God looks at what's in your heart, while people look at what you say and do - God could see that this man had rejected Him in his heart, and the commandment to stone him was based on what was in his heart, not his picking up sticks on the sabbath day. although picking up sticks on the sabbath day was a likelyindication of what was in his heart, his outward actions cannot be a reliable indication of what was in his heart. this is why the commandment to stone was not left to the judgment of the people, but was left in God's hands. if God dealt with man based on man's performance, the Bible would end with Genesis and there would be no one alive today to read even that far.

    Num 14:18 is a quote by Moses of what God said to Moses in Ex 34:

    Exo 34:1-7
    (1) And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
    (2) And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
    (3) And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
    (4) And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
    (5) And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
    (6) And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
    (7) Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    this occurred immediately after the israelites had forsaken God and fallen into idol worship only weeks after having been miraculously set free from slavery and poverty in egypt. to see the whole meaning, you must look at the first occurrence of this:

    Exo 20:2-6
    (2) I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    (3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    (4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
    (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
    (6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    notice that verse 6 starts with the word 'and', making it a part of verse 5, so that the whole statement reads:

    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    people tend to follow the beliefs of their parents, and if a parent hates God, that parent will teach his children to hate God by example. but verse 6 makes it clear that if the children love God, they will receive mercy. the lies that those children were taught don't exclude them from God's mercy; but those lies can cause them to not receive God's mercy.

    btw - God's commandments as the word is used here do not refer to written laws that we must keep, but to His situational leading that we receive through fellowship based on faith in His grace and independent of our good and/or bad performance; as it is following His situational leading that results in keeping the whole of the law as Jesus defined it, since he will never lead us to transgress His law - only He knows how to apply the multitude of His laws correctly in any given situation, so we must be led by Him and not our own intellect and understanding.

    if you are reborn in Christ, you are free from all curses, so stop claiming curses and agree with God that as a new creature, you are no longer a skeptic, but a reborn believer of Him;)
  14. Pal Handy

    Pal Handy Irregular Member

    Get out of the Old testament and into the New testament.

    The Old has passed away and is replaced with the New covenant that
    God sealed with the life's blood of God with man, Jesus Christ.

    You cannot marry the Old and New covenant.

    You cannot put new wine in old wine skins...

    God was judging the nations and people in the Old testament.

    In the New testament, God has made peace between Himself and man
    through the sacrifice of Himself in the form of a man. (reserving judgment for the end of the world)

    God has taken on Himself all the sin, blame and shame of all that is wrong
    and has made a way for all who will receive His love as expressed in Christ,
    to receive a pardon, eternal life and a future in God's presence as His sons
    and daughters.

    Many stumble and fall when they try to marry God's Old covenant made
    with the sacrifices of innocent animals with the New covenant that is
    sealed with the life's blood of God with man, Jesus Christ.

    The book of Romans explains all of this in great detail. (read it)

    Read and reread the New testament and stop trying to combine the Old
    and the New as they are completely different covenants with different
    responsibilities, execution, rights and purposes.

    Once you have a clear understanding of the New covenant (book of Romans)
    then the Old testament will make sense to you.

    Hope this helps you....
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2014
  15. turned around

    turned around Newbie

    Hi pal,
    Sounds good.
  16. parsley

    parsley .

    It is still important to resolve in your mind what Old Testament scriptures intend, even if you use the New to make sense of the Old.

    Matthew 5: 17
    Do not think that I (Jesus) came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

    (Speaking of the Torah/Law, not every verse in throughout the OT)

    Deut 32:45
    When Moses had finished speaking all these words to all Israel, he said to them, "Take to your heart all the words with which I am warning you today, which you shall command your sons to observe carefully, even all the words of this law.

    "For it is not an idle word for you; indeed it is your life. And by this word you will prolong your days in the land, which you are about to cross the Jordan to possess."
    How different are the laws in Deut 27 from our current civil laws?

    'Cursed is he who moves his neighbor's boundary mark.'
    (I had a neighbor who did this frequently -- and he was an outspoken Christian.)

    'Cursed is he who misleads a blind person on the road.'

    'Cursed is he who distorts the justice due an alien, orphan , and widow.'

    'Cursed is he who lies with any animal.'

    'Cursed is he who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or of his mother... with his mother-in-law.'

    'Cursed is he who strikes his neighbor in secret.'
    (Must laugh at the "in secret" condition.)

    'Cursed is he who accepts a bribe to strike down an innocent person.'
    These laws kept people alive, and protected weaker members of society. Without the OT laws, there would have been no agreement on legal standards and rights of the oppressed.

    The laws and OT were not a waste of time and effort, or considered senseless after Jesus arrived. Some laws might have become culturally irrelevant (like avoiding pork after trichinosis solutions were found); but there is no scripture that tells us to neglect the earlier writings.

    Jesus and the apostles quoted the earlier scriptures, so God certainly did not tell us to stop reading them. But we might want to read them in a different way -- analyzing, reflecting upon, researching why things were said, reading the historical background.

    It's risky to open up to a random verse and decide, "That's what I'm going to believe today." And as you have seen, it's even risky to see God enforcing restrictions on people who are criminally out of control... and assuming God should always be gushy and huggy.

    We ask why there is so much suffering in the world, but then don't want a God who condemns lawless behavior. We try to be loving Christians, and wonder whether to turn in serial criminals... then wonder why so many bad things happen to us.
  17. Harry3142

    Harry3142 Regular Member


    The laws and commandments of Torah were the foundation for a strong, cohesive society. Through everyone's following the same set of laws they each knew what their rights and responsibilities were to the society-at-large. But for any one of them to deliberately violate those laws was seen as a threat to the cohesiveness of their entire society.

    And it was that cohesiveness which kept them alive. They were quite literally surrounded by other societies who were watching them closely. These societies knew what actions caused a society to weaken to the point at which it could be easily conquered, as well as what actions caused a society to be a formidable foe against all aggressors.

    Because of his education in military tactics, weaponry, and intelligence Moses himself knew what the societies of his era looked for. As a male child being reared in Egypt's royal court he would have studied all of these subjects, but especially he would have studied military intelligence.

    This subject was of supreme importance, for it determined the strength of a potential enemy. If a society which they were coming up against ordered that certain actions be practiced conscientiously, while other actions were expressly forbidden, then that society would be seen as strong and cohesive, making it a formidable foe to be respected. However, if a society which they wee coming up against permitted certain actions to be practiced rather than strictly enforcing a zero tolerance of such behavior, then that society could be seen as a potential conquest.

    So what we have in Torah is not a 'roadmap to heaven'; it's a survival manual. As long as the Hebrews followed its laws and commandments other societies around them would see them as a society to be respected. As long as the Hebrews were quick to punish those who violated those laws and commandments other societies would see them as a society to be respected. However, if the Hebrews decided that they would abandon the laws of Torah, choosing instead to practice laws associated with other gods, as well as permitting others among them to do so, then their society would soon be seen as an easy conquest to be attacked and destroyed.
  18. LarryP2

    LarryP2 Well-Known Member

    Eastern Orthodox
    Any argument that Christians must keep any part of the Mosaic Law is just dishonest about the structure and implementation of the Old Testament law, and indicates a severe ignorance about its applications. There are 613 Commandments, all of which are equally important, and all of them must be kept. Or none of them. There is NO distinction in the Mosaic Law between "ritualistic" and "moral" law. Sabbattarian Christians conjure up that self-serving distinction purely out of convenience. They have picked a few of the 613 Commandments seemingly at random, based on the ones that happen to tickle their fancy. That is willfully dishonest to the intent of the Law.

    If you were to approach an rabbinical expert on the Mosaic Law, and announce self-righteously that you are "keeping the Ten Commandments," they would look on you as though you are mentally deranged. Under Mosaic Law, there is no such a thing as the "Ten Commandments." What we know as the "Decalogue" is subsumed into the overall structure of the 613 Commandments. Judaism does not regard the "ten commandments" as anything particularly unique or special in relationship to the other 603 Commandments. They are merely ten among many other laws of equal importance.

    Out of the mandatory 613 Mosaic laws, Sabbattarians pick and choose a tiny handful that happily coincide with their overall goals of preening self-righteousness over other Christians. They flatter themselves all too easily. If you understand the way the Mosaic law works, all they have merely done is make themselves looks bizarre and foolish. The Apostles repeatedly denounced such behavior as "Judaizing." The Apostles were experts on the Mosaic Law. Sabbattarians are not.

    For Christians, Colossians 2:16-17 means what it says.

    For Christians, the AD 50 Council of Jerusalem emphatically means what it says: Gentile Christians shall not be bound by the Mosaic law.

    Any argument that the Sabbath is a memorial of Creation indicates an profound ignorance of the original Hebrew that both Genesis and Exodus were written in. The writer of the book of Genesis took great pains to make it clear that the Sabbath did not begin at the 7th day of Creation. Hebrew scholars have made that point absolutely clear. The Sabbath commandment was not given to the Children of Israel until at least a month after their delivery from Egyptian slavery. Meanwhile, they would have unintentionally broken the Sabbath at least four times during their crossing of the Sinai. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone kept the Sabbath prior to Sinai. NONE!

    Christians began worshiping on Sunday no later than 1 week after the Resurrection. Christ then Ascended on a Sunday. The Day of Pentecost, the Church's Birthday was on a Sunday. It would have been BIZARRE if the early Christians had continued to keep the Sabbath, given the impact those three events clearly would have had on them. Why were all the early Christians in one place on a Sunday when the Day of Pentecost took place? Because they had started doing so in honor of the Resurrection. By the Day of Pentecost, it was an entrenched Christian custom already.

    The SDA argument that Constantine unilaterally destroyed the Sabbath has been forcibly disproven by their own Sabbath Expert, Samuelle Bachiochi.

    The argument for keeping just one pet commandment out of the 613 simply denigrates the obvious meaning of the crucifixion, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Day of Pentecost. It is a Salvation by Works theory of "Partial Atonement." It is an argument that one must keep the entirety of the Mosaic Law, because Christ's sacrifice is not enough. Fortunately for Christians, even Christians who keep the Sabbath aren't even CLOSE to meeting that burden.

    If you want to keep the Sabbath and the rest of the laws and have an ounce of integrity, you must go through the full-scale conversion process to Judaism that is mandatory. It is extremely highly-unlikely any Sabbattarian Christian would do that. For an unconverted Gentile to keep the Sabbath is such a serious offense against God and a defilement against the Sabbath, an observant Jew is required the impose the Death Penalty!.

    Christians who keep the Sabbath are as bizarre as if they suddenly developed a yen to sacrifice some animals in their backyard temple. Or kept the Feast of the New Moons.
  19. seashale76

    seashale76 Orthodox Christian and Unapologetic Iconodule

    Eastern Orthodox
    The Old Testament is to be understood in a New Testament way, in the light of the Church. The Old Testament contains the preparation for the coming of Christ, promises, prophecies, as well as types and antitypes of Christ. The events of the OT being the shadow and the events of the NT being the truth and fulfillment. A big example of this is Isaac being offered as a sacrifice (that was rejected) points directly to Christ's death on the Cross.

    As an example, when you look at Moses' account of the fall into sin, it is an interesting parallel to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The son left and fell into grief and suffering. However, it also gives us hope that we can always return. The incarnation of Christ made this possible.

    Here are just a few other examples:

    Adam and Christ
    Eve and the Mother of God
    Earthly paradise and Heavenly paradise
    Sin through Woman and Salvation through the Virgin
    Eating the fruit bringing death and partaking of the Holy Gifts bringing life
    The forbidden tree and the saving Cross
    The serpent/deceiver and Gabriel preaching good tidings
    Woman told she will bring forth children in sorrow and the women at the tomb are told to Rejoice
    Salvation from the flood in the ark and salvation in the Church
    The three strangers with Abraham and the Holy Trinity
    Jacob's ladder and the Mother of God (the ladder of the Son of God's descent to earth)
    The sale of Joseph and Christ's betrayal
    Slavery in Egypt and the spiritual slavery of man
    Crossing the Red Sea and Holy Baptism
    The burning/unconsumed bush and the perpetual virginity of the Theotokos
    The Sabbath and the day of Resurrection
    Circumcision and Baptism
    Manna and the Lord's Supper
    The Law of Moses and the Law of the Gospel
    Sinai and the Sermon on the Mount
    The tabernacle and the NT Church
    The Ark of the Covenant and the Theotokos
    The serpent on the staff and Christ nailed to the Cross
    Aaron's rod and our rebirth in Christ

    Also- it is important to remember that EVERYTHING hinges on the incarnation. I also think you're way too worried about those who passed on before. Christ preached to them in hell. I think God is a good judge of them and their hearts.
  20. asiyreh

    asiyreh God is salvation

    Ok think about it like this. the Sabbath was the sign, the distinguishing feature, of The Jewish covenant with God.

    Let me try and put it to you in these terms. Imagine a Catholic in the middle ages, walking up to the alter to get the Eucharistic spitting it on the floor, trampling it, and in his heart thinking - dot dot dot you and your God. That's the sort of crime we're talking about here.

    Try not to get so concerned about this one guy but understand the lesson being taught. People die all the time. If there actually is a God then death is probably not so bad... for some...
    At least he got the opportunity to provide an object lesson in God's scriptures. I imagine that's quite the claim to fame. Also I'm pretty sure Levitical priests usually gave these guys the opportunity to repent before they executed them so you might even get a chance to speak with this guy in heaven if you can accept God and his Word in your heart.

    Willie T brings up a very good point too btw. Try to see the scriptures as a whole.

    See the plan of salvation unfolding. God put the Jews under a type of Marshall law, a military strategy while he set them apart from other nations, in order to bring forth the Messiah.
    They were surrounding on all sides by pagans of the most heinous nature and God was determined not to let their culture creep in and damage the womb of the Messiah - Israel.
    The Sabbath was the banner they carried. When it fell - Israel fell. So don't mess with the banner, especially if your out thinking to yourself. Hey I didn't bother myself to gather enough sticks, there's no God anyways and this is a stupid law. I'm off to get some sticks... Ahhh aaa. Measuring stick of healthy womb for Messiah do not touch...