Israelite, Israelites in OT referrs to the church of God?

[fizh]

The Short Version:

Hi all, I want your opinion on my argument. Do you agree or disagree, and why?



I consider that the terms “Israelite”, “Israelites”, and “Israel”, as used in the Old Testament, are most properly understood as referring to the assembly or congregation of God, not to an ethnic group or national group based on blood, culture, or secular identity of any sort. That being said, the membership in this congregation is traced by one’s lineal descent from the patriarch Israel, no matter how distant or miniscule it may be. This isn’t about blood percentage but rather about physical line of descent. Furthermore, it is also possible to join the assembly or to leave it through conversion and certain types of sin, respectfully. Therefore, descent is only the primary factor that determines membership but not the only one.



Finally, I would like to add that the Christians took the New Testament concept of the church exactly from this pre-existing Jewish notion of the church. They are one and the same in origin. The “church” concept is not some aberration of Judaism as non-MJs frequently maintain. I would love some clarification as to how the idea of the Church evolved in the new Testament, according to your perspective as Messianic Jews.



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Full Version:

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I am aware that the term "Son of Israel" is used numerous times and that this type of epithet is applied towards other groups of people (e.g., “Sons of Moab”). It can does usually represent an ethnic identifier. However, it doesn't have this sense in nearly all of the cases in which it appears in the Old Testament. Why? Because the term Israelite doesn’t appear practically ever, whereas as ethnic terms such as Moabite, Ammonite, Egyptian, and Midianite, appear frequently. The lack of correspondence between the ethnic term Israelite and ancestral the term "Sons of Israel" is not possible to dismiss as an accident or coincidence. This contradiction is not only incredibly obvious but it is also incredibly deliberate. Notice, furthermore, that when an ethnic or even linguistic descriptor is applied to the Israelites it is the term "Hebrew". Even this is rare, it happens I believe around 10 times in total and almost all in the same passages. Don’t you think it's strange that the Old Testament uses this word instead of Israelite, which is the obvious choice? The wording is bizarre, actually, except when viewed as intentional. The only reasonable explanation is that the Old Testament is de-emphasizing ethnic identity and emphasizing ancestral lineage from Israel. This is in perfect accordance with the primary theological themes running through the texts.

To summarize my argument:

1. It is evident from the Old Testament that there is an assembly of God which is determined firstly by ancestral descent from the patriarch Israel. Secondly, males (at the least) may join the assembly through circumcision. Third, people who are not part of the assembly but who live within it are expected to follow its religious laws (at least primarily). Fourth, a member of the assembly can be cut off (excommunicated) if they do not follow the law or are not circumcised. Fifth, it is stated that should the assembly ever break the covenant with God it will either be physically dispersed or even destroyed.

Therefore, there is a congregation of worshipers whose existence is organized around the worship of God, and whose entire purpose is to fulfill its divine mission. The central factor in belonging to this assembly is lineal descent through the male line from the patriarch Israel, no matter how faint or far removed.

2. The Old Testament almost never uses the term Israelite when we would expect it to appear frequently. We expect it because other groups of people such as the Arameans, Moabites, Ammonites, Midianites, and Egyptians are often called by the equivalent terms to Israelite. When the Israelites are referred to with an obvious ethnic descriptor, only a dozen times maybe, the term used is almost always Hebrew(s). This is strange because they are not ever referred to as the "Sons of the Hebrews", but are referred to as the "Sons of Israel". So if anything you would expect the term Israelite to appear and not the term Hebrew.

Therefore, identity as Israelite or Hebrew on secular grounds is next to irrelevant in the Old Testament, and there is no "ethnic" community that is central.

So, I come to the following conclusions:

Regarding the people of the Old Testament primarily as an ethnic group or national group named the Israelites, rather than as a church, is totally unwarranted. The primary descriptors that should be applied to this group are "Children of Israel", "People of Israel", "Israel", "Assembly of God" or "Congregation of God". The group in question represents a religious assembly or congregation defined principally by descent from the Patriarch Israel. That is, a person who can trace their lineage, no matter how far removed, back to Israel, is a born member of the congregation. The term Israelite can only be understood properly as meaning a born or adopted member of this assembly or congregation.

 

[Ματθαίος]

I think Israelites and modern-day "Jews" or Talmudists are not the same thing. The only Israelites today are Christians.

 

[fizh]

Can you expound a little more? What do you think about my point regarding the religious way that the people of God are called in the OT? I haven't seen this pointed out very much in scholarship. I'm not sure about bible sites but it seems to have been mostly overlooked...

 

[visionary]

I see what you are saying.. bottom line is that the spirit of the law, and the letter of the law have always struggled in the heart of man, right from the garden gate. Since the bible traces one branch of the family tree [aka Jews] through the centuries, that kept the faith, faulty at times, but a shining light in the darkness of the world, never the less... I can see where you are wondering about those who lived by the spirit of the law, and those who are of the claim it group. Obviously from the scripture's own narrative, God and the Jews were not often eye to eye on matters. There were always shining lights in every generation who stepped up to the plate and did God's bidding even under horrendous circumstances.

The lessons they learned and were written down, were also a blessing to all of us, who want to follow in their footsteps of faith. Sorting it all out is difficult, I agree. But if prayerfully, under the guidance of God, questions are answered from scripture, a clearer path is presented that is currently the best avenue to take in one's situation.

So back to the concern of this thread. I would say do not get bogged down in the who is what, where, when, and therefore get caught up in the dividing and categorizing as it will only build walls in your mind as to who is in and who is out... whether in this century or any other century. Making issues to squeeze believers in this or that titles.. will only separate you from the benefits of their experiences with God.

It has often happened that people will say that this or that was only for the Jews [aka Israelites etc] both inside the camp of Jews and also outside. I do not believe that is God's purpose. Just like I do not believe that there is a faith for Jews and another for Christians, even when both believe in God, the Father and His son, Yeshua. When eternity comes, it will all be one kingdom, one ruler, one rule, and there will be no Jew and Gentile in their walk with God, their life with God, or their truth as God has revealed to them.

God's purpose in Israelites [Jews] is the promised seed will come out of them. They are to be the keepers and teachers of Torah. They are to be the light unto the world. They are chosen for these reasons. It is a function, a job, an assignment, and a duty to God to fulfill. It is not a bloodline after the promised seed. All that is left is keeping Torah, teaching Torah, having faith in God and His Messiah, and being a light to the world. All those taught are to spread the gospel, the truth, the life, and the way as it holds the secrets to God's kingdom in promises, prophecy and literally for eternity.

 

[fizh]

Well visionary, thanks for your response. Actually, my only concern here is the ideological relationship between the Israelites and God as defined by the old Testament.

But, since you brought into the discussion the matter of the role the Jews play in the divine plan (per both Christian and Jewish theology), I want to point out that your interpretation is inverted. God did not, according to the scriptures, choose the Jews to fulfill his mission. He created them for the purpose of fulfilling his mission, and then demanded that they accept this purpose willfully. No divine plan, no Jews. One cannot exist without the other. More to the point, only the Jews can fulfill this mission because ONLY they exist expressly for that purpose. The OT states clearly that the Jews, the children of Israel, are the assembly or congregation of God according to the OT, but the children of Edom (Esau) are not, even though both are of the line of Isaac. Also, for the same reason the children of Ishmael are not part of the assembly of God. This is the reason for the reference "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob".

To summarize the above, for whatever reason, it was the decision of God to create his church through the descendants of the line of Israel. However, if these children of Israel were not created explicilty and solely for the purpose of fulfilling the divine mission, that is, for being the church of God, then it would have necessarily been another people through the line of Abraham that God would have created. As it says, there is nothing special about the Children of Israel themselves, from a biological or ancestral point of view. In fact, not even their covenant status through the line of Isaac is special in some fundamental aspect, rather it is only made special through the will of God himself.

It is important to recognize the implications. From an OT perspective the Jews are not actually the "chosen" people. That is a misunderstanding. Rather, they are the people God "chose to create" to fulfill his will. In so much as they are "fulfilling" the divine plan or could be returned to this purpose, thew Jews continue to be meaningfull theologically, according to the OT. But, if they were ever to genuinely reject this role then the Jews would cease instantly to be a meaningful theological entity and would actually be dispersed or destroyed. The result of this deconstruction would not necessarily be the elimination of Israel as a spiritual concept and reality, that is, the church of God itself. But, it would make the concept of a Jew irrelevant entirely.

 

[fizh]

I also wanted to point out something about the way "B'nei" is translated from Hebrew to English, and its implications for the term "Children of Israel". The word "b'nei" is almost always rendered as "children" but that is really incorrect because it adds an English ephemism (children => son) to the existing Hebrew euphemism. in Hebrew "b'nei" literally means "son", but where it refers to a people or to children the understanding is not literal, of course, as females are included. I would say that the term "b'nei" should therefore be rendered as "Sons", and from the context the correct meaning ought to be inferred. Here is one such example from the Masoretic text which supports my conclusion:

20 All the people that were left of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, who were not of the children of Israel; 21 even their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel were not able utterly to destroy, of them did Solomon raise a levy of bondservants, unto this day.
1 Kings 9 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

The term b'neihem (inflected form of b'nei) is used to render "their children", and as you can see from the context it clearly means descendents rather than "children". The text should be given either as:

"even their sons that were left after them in the land..." [euphemistic translation]

But if we don't take that approach then it should be:

"even their descendants that were left after them in the land..." [conceptual translation]

Now, my argument has substantial implications for how the term "Children of Israel" should be understood. Firstly, the term is generically to be rendered as "Sons of Israel", which is clearly a euphemism in practically all contexts. This is correct because the term is a euphemism and is not meant to be literal. The ancient near east often used this sort of language, for better or for worse. Notice the patrilineal characteristic of this term. It stresses group membership through descent from a male ancestor. That is correct, because for better or for worse, the ancient near east social system conceived of human groups in this way. Likewise, so does the OT. Third, it should be obvious that "Sons of Israel" can naturally be rendered in only two main ways. First, it can refer to the literal male descendents of the patriarch Israel. Second, it can refer to the descendents of the patriarch Israel, though not exclusively male. Obviously other uses apply, but those are determined entirely by our knowledge of the context.

So, the term could refer to a body of people whose ethnic identity is based on their common descent from the patriarch Israel. That is, it could mean "the ethnos whose ancestor is Israel". This mirrors Near Eastern/OT usages such as "The Sons of Moab" and "The Sons of Ammon". But, it could also refer to a body of people whose religious identity is based on their common descent from Israel. That is, it could mean the "the people defined by their ancestor Israel". If the OT wanted to convey the latter concept it would have to do so contextually, because the euphemistic phrase "Sons of Israel" can't distinguish this from other interpretations. As I have shown in my main argument, the OT clearly does just this. In nearly all passages where "Sons of Israel" appears the surrounding text obviously refers to an assembly or congregation of worshipers that belong to God. Furthermore, these terms "assembly", "congregation" are basically never applied to ethnic groups in the OT such as the Moabites or the Ammonites when describing them as "a people". The OT repeatedly stresses the ancestral relationship of the people of God to the patriarch Israel, and its various implications. Therefore, the only possible conclusion is that OT term "Sons of Israel" explicitly refers to the "descendants of Israel", and means "the church of God".

 

[CherubRam]

• Isaiah 4:2
[ The Branch of the LORD ] In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.

• Isaiah 11:1
[ The Branch From Jesse ] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

• Jeremiah 23:5
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

• Jeremiah 33:15
“‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land.

• Zechariah 3:8
“‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

• Zechariah 6:12
Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

• John 15:1
[ The Vine and the Branches ] “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

• John 15:2
He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

• John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

• John 15:5
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

• John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

• Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

• Romans 11:16
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

• Romans 11:17
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

• Romans 11:18
do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

• Romans 11:19
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”

• Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

• Romans 11:24
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[CherubRam]

All who will inherit life immortal will be gods.

Psalm 82:6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’ 7 But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

Genesis 6:2
the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took any they chose as wives for themselves.

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth both in those days and afterwards, when the sons of God came to the daughters of men, and who bore children to them. They were powerful men of old, men of renown.

[Nephilim translated means "Fallen ones." They were [men] who were of a very low moral grade.]

Job 1:6
One day the sons of God [men] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

Job 2:1
One day the sons of God came again to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7
while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Hos 1:10
“Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, because they will be called sons of God.

Luke 20:36
For they cannot die anymore, because they are like [angels/messengers] and are sons of God, since they are sons of the resurrection.

Galatians 3:26
for you are all sons of God through faith in Messiah Yashua.

Psalm 82:6
I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.

John 10:33-34
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
34 Yashua answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Yashua was asked if he was the Messiah, he was not asked if he was God. It has always been understood that the Messiah would be a god from Heaven.

John 10:24. The Jews who were there gathered around him, asking, “How long will you keep us in suspense, if you’re the Messiah, tell us plainly?”



Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[CherubRam]

Who is a Jew or the nation Israel.
This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


Genesis 17:3
Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


Genesis 35:11
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


Numbers 15:15
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


Esther 8:17
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

Psalm 2:4
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


Psalm 82:8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


Psalm 111:6
He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


Isaiah 9:3
You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


Isaiah 26:15
You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself;
you have extended all the borders of the land.


Isaiah 44:5
One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


Ezekiel 47
21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


Zechariah 2:10
"Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."


Matthew 12:21
In his name the nations will put their hope."


The Parable of the Tenants
Luke 20
9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


Acts 3:25
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


Romans 4:18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


Romans 10:19
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

 

[visionary]

..<snip>... I want to point out that your interpretation is inverted. God did not, according to the scriptures, choose the Jews to fulfill his mission. He created them for the purpose of fulfilling his mission, and then demanded that they accept this purpose willfully. No divine plan, no Jews....<snip>...

Created them, choose them... Then demanded.... I think you have inverted the whole process. ... Adam and Eve were created for His purpose, thus all their children are part of this plan and purpose. .. The faith family line followed through scripture is the branch of this humanity tree that followed His purpose, for the most part... in a sea of humanity which have gone astray. He blessed their obedience, thus Abraham's line blessed with the promised seed, Moses blessed with bringing out the family as promised to Mount Sinai, etc... then Yeshua came as the Messiah [promised seed of Abraham's line]... and this family tree still is the 'choosen' as the keepers.

 

[fizh]

Visionary, I have it correct. I have shown that the church referred to in the OT as the Sons of Israel, Israel, the People of the Lord, the Assembly of the Lord, Assembly of Israel, the Congregation of the Lord, and the Congregation of Israel, is deliberately created by Gd to fulfill his divine purpose. Second, I have shown that this church is one and the same as the descendents of the patriarch Israel. Third, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel in the OT is Hebrew as well as Israelite, but that Hebrew is preferred. Fourth, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel is next to irrelevant in the OT, because only the church known as "the Sons of Israel" matters.

 

[CherubRam]

Visionary, I have it correct. I have shown that the church referred to in the OT as the Sons of Israel, Israel, the People of the Lord, the Assembly of the Lord, Assembly of Israel, the Congregation of the Lord, and the Congregation of Israel, is deliberately created by Gd to fulfill his divine purpose. Second, I have shown that this church is one and the same as the descendents of the patriarch Israel. Third, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel in the OT is Hebrew as well as Israelite, but that Hebrew is preferred. Fourth, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel is next to irrelevant in the OT, because only the church known as "the Sons of Israel" matters.

Other peoples joined the Hebrews who formed the nation Israel, and so, The nation of Israel is multinational.

 

[AbbaLove]

I would love some clarification as to how the idea of the Church evolved in the new Testament, according to your perspective as Messianic Jews.

So both Ματθαίος and visionary are Messianic Jews according to their understanding?? Still not sure if CherubRam (Judaic Christian) considers himself to be a Messianic Jew? Maybe, i'm making too big a deal out of which MJ members are and aren't a Messianic Jew? Anyway FWIW ...

The early 1st century 'church' came into being long before what we now know as the 3rd century EOC and RCC 'Church'. So, if you mean 'Church' and not 'church' then consider beginning with the first Council at Nicaea in 325 AD. I'm not Roman Catholic, but because of CFs recent notice regarding members of this MJ forum decided it's about time i investigate the Nicene Creed (i'm approaching 74). If you would have written "... how the 'church' (not 'Church') evolved in the new Testament ..." you might have received an actual MJ reply. Anyway for the sake of expedience will post an excerpt from wikipedia ...

"Soon after the earthly ministry of Jesus, the Jerusalem church began at Pentecost with apostles and others totaling some 120 Jews and Jewish proselytes, in an "upper room, believed by some to be the Cenacle, and thus the first Christian church." (Christianity in the 1st century - Wikipedia)​

 

[fizh]

Other peoples joined the Hebrews who formed the nation Israel, and so, The nation of Israel is multinational.

Yes, or multi-ethnic. Also, the OT clearly indicates that every one of the patriarchs of the Israelite tribes is Aramean, and born in Aramea. Their mothers were Arameans, and their father, Israel, was half-Aramean and half Chaldean. There isn't even an indication that they are "Hebrew" until after they are grown up. This is really strange actually and I don't have an answer for it. But it seems that either the OT doesn't really care if the Sons of Israel are Hebrew or Aramean, or whatever, or the idea of being Hebrew is somehow interchangeable with being Aramean.

 

[fizh]

Abbalove, my apologies if I offended any MJs or others. I don't know much about the appropriate terminology and how best to elicit a response from knowledgeable people.

 

[visionary]

Visionary, I have it correct. I have shown that the church referred to in the OT as the Sons of Israel, Israel, the People of the Lord, the Assembly of the Lord, Assembly of Israel, the Congregation of the Lord, and the Congregation of Israel, is deliberately created by Gd to fulfill his divine purpose. Second, I have shown that this church is one and the same as the descendents of the patriarch Israel. Third, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel in the OT is Hebrew as well as Israelite, but that Hebrew is preferred. Fourth, I have shown that the ethnic identity of the Sons of Israel is next to irrelevant in the OT, because only the church known as "the Sons of Israel" matters.

If you had said synagogue, it would have been more presentable to the continuance of the assembly of God's congregations. Church has connotations and history that is not biblical.

 

[Open Heart]

I think Israelites and modern-day "Jews" or Talmudists are not the same thing. The only Israelites today are Christians.

This is nonsense. Jews today are descendants of Israel. Virtually all Christians are not. You can talk about figurative "spiritual" Jews all you want. Not the same thing. To say that Christians are Israelites is like saying the Church is Israel -- it is an odd form of replacement theology. For a Gentile with this belief to claim to be a Jew or Israelite goes beyond cultural misappropriation -- it is identity theft. That doesn't mean they aren't the People of God, the elect, the chosen, the ekklesia, part of the greater commonwealth. I'm just saying they aren't Israel.

Now I realize that there are those in here that disagree with me, some quite strongly and they will be just as angry with me for saying this as I feel angry when I read someone saying that all Christians are Israelites. However, they do not simultaneously say that Rabbinical Jews are not Israel, and so do not qualify as promoting Replacement Theology. They have just as much right to voice their opinions in here as I have a right to voice mine. I'm not advocating they be shut down.

However, Ματθαίος, if a post simultaneously promotes that Christians are Israelites AND modern day Jews are not, that is out and out Replacement Theology, and is forbidden by the SOP.

 

[Ματθαίος]

You can talk about figurative "spiritual" Jews all you want.

Excuse me, this is actually the word of God the Bible stating the above, not me. If it means anything to you. Probably not.

The so-called "Jews" of today are nothing but unashamed identity thieves. Even their DNA analysis shows that they are descendants of Southern Europeans (askenazim), of Arabs (sephardim) etc. They are in fact, Talmudists. Followers of an ungodly sect. That's all they are. They have stolen the identity and the name of the true Israelites of the OT, the followers of Yahwe. The twelve tribes of Israel have been dispersed and got dissolved in virtually all the nations of the world soon after the year 70 A.D. They DO NOT exist today in any shape or form in the ethnical sense. The droplets of their genes do exist here and there, but it doesn't matter in the least bit.

The so-called "Jews" of today are pure Nazis and racist based on their false religion. Try and perform Aliya into modern "State of Israel" as a non-Talmudist. Good luck with that.

The New Covenant is called New Covenant not for nothing. The new Israel is the church now and for ever and ever. There is no other. All ethnicities are included, it's a truly global family. No division is encouraged or allowed by God. All are one in Jesus Christ.

 

[danny ski]

Excuse me, this is actually the word of God the Bible stating the above, not me. If it means anything to you. Probably not.

The so-called "Jews" of today are nothing but unashamed identity thieves. Even their DNA analysis shows that they are descendants of Southern Europeans (askenazim), of Arabs (sephardim) etc. They are in fact, Talmudists. Followers of an ungodly sect. That's all they are. They have stolen the identity and the name of the true Israelites of the OT, the followers of Yahwe. The twelve tribes of Israel have been dispersed and got dissolved in virtually all the nations of the world soon after the year 70 A.D. They DO NOT exist today in any shape or form in the ethnical sense.

The so-called "Jews" of today are pure Nazis and racist. Try and perform Aliya into modern "State of Israel" as a non-Talmudist. Good luck with that.

The New Covenant is called New Covenant not for nothing. The new Israel is the church now and for ever and ever. There is no other. All ethnicities are included, it's a truly global family. No division is encouraged or allowed by God. All are one in Jesus Christ.

Ah, finally! The mask is off and the true identity is revealed. Another Jew hater in a long tradition of Jew haters.

 

[Ματθαίος]

Ah, finally! The mask is off and the true identity is revealed. Another Jew hater in a long tradition of Jew haters.

Where did you see hate? Quote? Reasoning? Otherwise it's an empty personal attack.

I love all people. All people gave been forgiven by Jesus Christ.