israel doesn't commit war crimes.

[ebia]

Hamas needs to back down. They are clearly not going to win this war against Israel. Tell the Hamas to step down and Israel will eventually stop defending by using warfare. Pray for Israel !!!!!!

If Hamas did stop, then there are plenty of influential voices Israel that would get Israel to prove them some more until they started again.

 

[Targaryen]

Israel commits war crimes anytime they kill scores of civilians without cause. Hamas is not the Palestinian people.

 

[Zeek]

[citation needed]

A senior military source told Times of Israel that the Army counted 900 Hamas militants of the 1,800 Gazans believed to have been killed, meaning a 1:1 kill ratio of civilians to combatants, which would be in-line with Israel’s previous two wars against Hamas in Gaza.
Another tally was from The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, the ITIC, which reported figures from Sunday, with 407 terrorist operatives and 452 civilians. ITIC counted 1,438 Gazans dying in the conflict, including 589 people yet to be identified. Of the 407 terrorists, 222 were from Hamas, 123 from Palestinian Islamic Jihad and 62 from other terror organizations.

Israel Says Gaza Death Toll 1:1 Combatant-Civilian Kill Ratio, Same as in Previous Hamas Wars | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com

Also if you look at past figures you will see early reports and claims, often cited by the UN are eventually proven to be grossly exaggerated but by then the misinformation has already been effective.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zeek

Israel has every right to defend herself, and I expect virtually any other nation would have caused far more civilian deaths than Israel has done, where the ratio of combattant to civilian is approx 1:1, a figure that is unheard of in such urban warfare. Israel should make no apology for losing far less people in this conflict.
​

Surely if there really were so few civilians the proportion of deaths that are civilians should be much lower, not much higher.

Not really...if you look at some of the claims it is reported around 80% of the dead are civilians which woild give a 1:5 ratio and would be extremely high...however better sources suggest this figure is artificially inflated and doesn't take into account certain important factors that I have already covered.

 

[Armoured]

Not really...if you look at some of the claims it is reported around 80% of the dead are civilians which woild give a 1:5 ratio and would be extremely high...however better sources suggest this figure is artificially inflated and doesn't take into account certain important factors that I have already covered.

 

[Zeek]

Here's a direct question for you: How many civilians has the Israel killed this year? How many TOTAL Israelies has Hamas killed this year?

Not sure of the total, I know B'Tselem put out a ratio figure of about 1:8 meaning for every Israeli killed about 8 Arabs are killed....but each of these has to be judged on its own merits.

What I find is that although Israel can be heavy-handed, there is often extreme provocation that lies at the heart of these deaths, and I do not excuse the ones that are actually murders including the Israelis who murdered the young Arab lad by burning him alive.

 

[Zeek]

You are right, Hamas should not attack Israel.

We agree.

Also, Israel should allow free air and sea trade to all Palestinian territories

Sorry that is just naive, even with restrictions by land and a blockade by sea, Hamas have shown their intent is to use whatever materials they can to attack Israel.

and stop engaging in tactics that kill people they don't need to kill, creating new terrorists. Palestinians and Israelis would benefit from peace, but leaders of Hamas and Israel would not and need eachother to stay in power. It is a vicious and ugly circle. Each thinks the other side to be murderous and unworthy of trust and this far, both are right.

You fail to take into account how much effort Israel puts into protecting her own citizens and trying hard to reduce the number of Arab civilians that are killed. You also fail to take into account the Islamic objectives behind Hamas that want Israel eradicated.

Israel cannot in any shape or form be equated with Hamas, and to attempt to do so proves how elusive facts are to some people.

 

[WisdomTree]

First of all, the poll question is very misleading and second of all, these types of threads needs to be closed.

 

[ebia]

Originally Posted by Zeek Israel has every right to defend herself, and I expect virtually any other nation would have caused far more civilian deaths than Israel has done, where the ratio of combattant to civilian is approx 1:1, a figure that is unheard of in such urban warfare. Israel should make no apology for losing far less people in this conflict. Not really...if you look at some of the claims it is reported around 80% of the dead are civilians which woild give a 1:5 ratio and would be extremely high...however better sources suggest this figure is artificially inflated and doesn't take into account certain important factors that I have already covered.

Even if your figures were the right figures, your previous logic would be nonsensical.

 

[Phil G]

Even if your figures were the right figures, your previous logic would be nonsensical.

I find it very strange that people are jumping on number of civilian deaths as if this has all been verified by independent research. The current numbers are supplied by Hamas who have proved very adept at filtering any information coming out of Gaza. Journalists have reported that they are threatened if they report the truth of what they see.

Hamas deliberately put civilians in the line of fire. Any death toll of civilians MUST reflect that fact. War is ugly and horrific. There will always be civilian deaths but for any governing body to deliberately place their own people in the line of fire is the true war crime.

In Gaza, who counts as a civilian and who doesn't? How can you tell that someone who is walking on the street or in their home is not a combatant? According to reports, Hamas have strapped bombs and armed their own children. Are they included in civilian casualties and who is responsible for their subsequent deaths if they are killed by the Israeli army? These are questions that I find international law falls well short of answering definitively.

It would seem that historically, the Israeli estimates for civilian casualties are closer to the truth than the Arab propaganda would have us believe. Maybe it's different this time. I don't know. But neither does anyone else posting here. Would it not be wise to wait for independent verification of numbers before condemnation of Israel on this?

 

[ebia]

I find it very strange that people are jumping on number of civilian deaths as if this has all been verified by independent research. The current numbers are supplied by Hamas who have proved very adept at filtering any information coming out of Gaza.

Have they? Your evidence for this?

Let's face it, it's not precise figures that are needed here, and there are plenty of agents who are speaking out against Hamas still verifying that tho figures are in the right ball-park.

But neither does anyone else posting here. Would it not be wise to wait for independent verification of numbers before condemnation of Israel on this?

Israel is even less cooperative about independent observation than Hamas is.

No - the crisis cannot wait for that kind of never-never-land, while children are being bombed in their homes and schools.

 

[Phil G]

Have they? Your evidence for this?

Let's face it, it's not precise figures that are needed here, and there are plenty of agents who are speaking out against Hamas still verifying that tho figures are in the right ball-park.


Israel is even less cooperative about independent observation than Hamas is.

No - the crisis cannot wait for that kind of never-never-land, while children are being bombed in their homes and schools.

As I said Israel has come closer to realistic figures for civilian casualties in previous conflicts than the figures quoted in the media at the time which were taken from Arab propaganda sources just as they are now.

So according to you, condemnation of Israel by reacting to unverified numbers is justified because why? Are you so sure your assumption is correct?

 

[ebia]

As I said

I asked for evidence, not a repeated statement.

Are you so sure your assumption is correct?

There are enough reports from independent sources within Gaza to have reasonable confidence the figures are in approximately the right ball park - not perfectly accurate, perhaps, but that the real figure would still leave Israel comdemned.

 

[Phil G]

I asked for evidence, not a repeated statement.



There are enough reports from independent sources within Gaza to have reasonable confidence the figures are in approximately the right ball park - not perfectly accurate, perhaps, but that the real figure would still leave Israel comdemned.

One example which I followed at the time because of the reports of thousands being killed in the media but the truth was clearly different! Officially, when investigated independently it was between 52 and 54! Most were combatants. Nowhere near the figures "independent" sources were quoting at the time!

Battle of Jenin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are telling me about reports which have no idea of the true death toll of civilians.

 

[MikeK]

I find it very strange that people are jumping on number of civilian deaths as if this has all been verified by independent research. The current numbers are supplied by Hamas who have proved very adept at filtering any information coming out of Gaza. Journalists have reported that they are threatened if they report the truth of what they see.
or in their home is not a combatant?

We were talking about numbers from a senior Israeli military official that Zeek mentioned, not Hamas.

 

[Phil G]

We were talking about numbers from a senior Israeli military official that Zeek mentioned, not Hamas.

Sorry, I must have missed something. Zeek's first post on this thread was yesterday while others have been posting since the first page nearly two weeks ago. How is that talking about numbers that Zeek posted?

 

[Antigone]

Sorry, I must have missed something. Zeek's first post on this thread was yesterday while others have been posting since the first page nearly two weeks ago. How is that talking about numbers that Zeek posted?

They were talking about this post.

 

[Antigone]

Helpful:

2014 Human Rights Watch report: Criticises Israel pretty harshly about various human rights offenses and disproportionate fatality rates without glossing over the violence that Hamas inflicts.

Vox.com overview of Israeli and Palestine fatalities: Note the sources for their data are from the UN (which has no interest in being biased) and an Israeli NGO.

Judging from the statistics I'd say a ratio from 4:1 is a little...off.

 

[Phil G]

They were talking about this post.

Yes I understand that but ebia is referring to "independent sources" which I still say have no idea of the real numbers of civilian deaths. In fact we may never know the true figure.

In the last Gaza war in 2008 there are still controversies over who were civilians or combatants as there were reports of Hamas fighters not in uniform and with no weapons when they were brought to hospital.

I am not arguing about the number of casualties because we just don't know the truth at this moment. Ebia may be right or wrong, but my contention is it would be wise not to assume any numbers are accurate.

 

[Antigone]

Yes I understand that but ebia is referring to "independent sources" which I still say have no idea of the real numbers of civilian deaths. In fact we may never know the true figure.

In the last Gaza war in 2008 there are still controversies over who were civilians or combatants as there were reports of Hamas fighters not in uniform and with no weapons when they were brought to hospital.

I am not arguing about the number of casualties because we just don't know the truth at this moment. Ebia may be right or wrong, but my contention is it would be wise not to assume any numbers are accurate.

While all of that is true, I'd say the conclusion that the number of Palestine civillians killed is several times higher than the number of Israeli civillians killed is uncontested.