israel doesn't commit war crimes.

[Armoured]

You are basically saying that Hamas should be allowed to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel.

No, he's saying that Hamas' firing of rockets doesn't warrant such a destructive, indiscriminate response.

No one is saying Israel doesn't have a right to self defence. It's the way they go about it that is at issue. Again, it's the civilian casualties that are the issue here, not that Israel is trying to stop Hamas rockets.

 

[andy b]

You are basically saying that Hamas should be allowed to fire rockets indiscriminately into Israel.

thats exactly what hes saying ....hey hamas fire your rockets over and dont worry we wont fire back...but then again its getting typed from a computer in scotland where the rockets are not landing

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

From another thread: "Like Golda Meir once said, the conflict there will end when the Palestinians learn to love their own children more than they hate the Israelis"

 

[Armoured]

From another thread: "Like Golda Meir once said, the conflict there will end when the Palestinians learn to love their own children more than they hate the Israelis"

That's probably cold comfort to the Palestinians who love their own children more than Hamas members love theirs.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

That's probably cold comfort to the Palestinians who love their own children more than Hamas members love theirs.

Same principle. I'm not seeing any reason to find comfort for anyone. But I don't understand or agree with putting the onus of morality on Israel for being stronger and better equipped to protect itself against an aggressor while excusing the aggressor themselves.

 

[Armoured]

Same principle. I'm not seeing any reason to find comfort for anyone. But I don't understand or agree with putting the onus of morality on Israel for being stronger and better equipped to protect itself against an aggressor while excusing the aggressor themselves.

No one's excusing the aggressor. The onus of morality being on Israel not to kill a bunch of innocent civilians should be fairly obvious, I would have thought.

No one is saying that Israel isn't fully entitled to prosecute military action against Hamas. It's the innocent civilians getting blown away in the crossfire people are taking issue with.

 

[Fantine]

My position is similar to the United Nation's--that Israel and Hamas are both committing war crimes by launching rockets in heavily populated areas that puts civilians at risk.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

No one's excusing the aggressor. The onus of morality being on Israel not to kill a bunch of innocent civilians should be fairly obvious, I would have thought.

No one is saying that Israel isn't fully entitled to prosecute military action against Hamas. It's the innocent civilians getting blown away in the crossfire people are taking issue with.

It should be even more obvious that as aggressor, Hamas is deliberately and purposely causing the deaths of its own people. So far, no one has come up with any brilliant ideas how Israel can effectively eliminate the threat of Hamas and not cause innocent deaths. Without the aggression, the innocent deaths would not be occurring. Really simple and straightforward.

 

[Armoured]

It should be even more obvious that as aggressor, Hamas is deliberately and purposely causing the deaths of its own people. So far, no one has come up with any brilliant ideas how Israel can effectively eliminate the threat of Hamas and not cause innocent deaths. Without the aggression, the innocent deaths would not be occurring. Really simple and straightforward.

No one's excusing what Hamas is doing. But for the nth time, just because Hamas are a bunch of amoral barbarians, doesn't make it OK for Israel to kill the innocent civilians Hamas is sheltering behind.

Let me try to put it in terms you'll understand... if you had a malignant tumour in one toe, and your doctor wanted to amputate at the hip, would you be ok with that, or would you question his excess in treatment?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

It should be even more obvious that as aggressor, Hamas is deliberately and purposely causing the deaths of its own people. So far, no one has come up with any brilliant ideas how Israel can effectively eliminate the threat of Hamas and not cause innocent deaths. Without the aggression, the innocent deaths would not be occurring. Really simple and straightforward.

Exactly. And the ones who are against Israel ignore the innocent civilians who are among Israel's population and Israel's duty to protect them.

 

[Armoured]

Exactly. And the ones who are against Israel ignore the innocent civilians who are among Israel's population and Israel's duty to protect them.

How does red misting Palestinian civilians protect Israel's population?

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

No one's excusing what Hamas is doing. But for the nth time, just because Hamas are a bunch of amoral barbarians, doesn't make it OK for Israel to kill the innocent civilians Hamas is sheltering behind.

Let me try to put it in terms you'll understand... if you had a malignant tumour in one toe, and your doctor wanted to amputate at the hip, would you be ok with that, or would you question his excess in treatment?

The aggression is the cause of the innocent deaths. The malignant tumor is Hamas.

 

[Armoured]

The aggression is the cause of the innocent deaths. The malignant tumor is Hamas.

Yes. The malignant tumour in the analogy is Hamas. Well done. Now, are you happy to have your entire leg removed to deal with a tumour in a single toe, or do you find that unacceptably excessive?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

How does red misting Palestinian civilians protect Israel's population?

I'm trying to figure out why you blame Israel for Hamas using a suicide "martyr" strategy to attack Israel. I don't see the logic.

 

[Armoured]

I'm trying to figure out why you blame Israel for Hamas using a suicide "martyr" strategy. I don't see the logic.

Far... Out... No one is blaming Israel for Hamas' strategy.

What people are doing is saying that Hamas being violent animals does not justify Israel inflicting mass casualties on innocent civilians.

 

[isshinwhat]

No one's excusing what Hamas is doing. But for the nth time, just because Hamas are a bunch of amoral barbarians, doesn't make it OK for Israel to kill the innocent civilians Hamas is sheltering behind.

And there, as I see it, is the rub. Within Catholic theology and the idea of Just War, double-effect and proportionality can say that their actions are morally justifiable. Most people grasp double-effect readily, but many do not understand proportionality. It does not guarantee an equality of result with respect to military action, but as regards to non-combatant deaths (collateral damage), it does call for there to be a proportionate military advantage.

If you are interested in how they justify a particular strike, look into the Collateral Damage Estimation Process.

 

[favoritetoyisjoy]

Yes. The malignant tumour in the analogy is Hamas. Well done. Now, are you happy to have your entire leg removed to deal with a tumour in a single toe, or do you find that unacceptably excessive?

If there had been no tumor there would be no need of an operation in the first place. The outcry should be against the aggressor purposely causing the death of its own people, not the defender.

 

[Armoured]

If there had been no tumor there would be no need of an operation in the first place. The outcry should be against the aggressor purposely causing the death of its own people, not the defender.

I'll take your refusal to answer a direct question appropriately as a tacit admission that you know you are defending the morally indefensible.

 

[Armoured]

And there, as I see it, is the rub. Within Catholic theology and the idea of Just War, double-effect and proportionality can say that their actions are morally justifiable. Most people grasp double-effect readily, but many do not understand proportionality. It does not guarantee an equality of result with respect to military action, but as regards to non-combatant deaths (collateral damage), it does call for there to be a proportionate military advantage.

Not just Catholic dogma either. The concept of appropriate and proportional force is codified quite explicitly in LOAC. Treaties to which Israel is a signatory, IINM.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

If there had been no tumor there would be no need of an operation in the first place. The outcry should be against the aggressor purposely causing the death of its own people, not the defender.

And Israel even warns them beforehand when and where the bomb is going to hit. Unfortunately, this warning lets Hamas know where to place their civilian "martyrs" for the bombing.