Isn't This Cute?

[redheadmt]

The realization that God is in control just has that effect; perfect love doesn't cast out people, it casts out fear.

I LOVE that!

 

[Loki]

Right. Man, you guys are wise. I honestly don't think Lee is trying to oust anyone genuine. Just the troll-esque folks who can be both Christian and non-Christian.

Since this IS technically a Christian site, I feel that all Christians should have a safe haven here without persecution or hatred. However, even Christians bicker and spew Hell at each other, so I don't see that happening. And I just LOVE this concept of defining the perfect Christian. Let's see...who is a perfect Christian? Um...that would be YESHUA! None of the rest of us come close.

And I think this should be a place where respectful non-Christians get to pick our brains. It's good for all of us.

That's what the congregational fora are for. Except WWMC, which allows the riff-raff in, but no one here seems to care about that.

If the Christians in the debate fora felt persecuted, they could always retreat to the non-debate areas. I simply don't see why those areas needed to be closed.

 

[redheadmt]

I am convinced that it is all about fear.

I have had eleven years of experience with my husband's fundy friends and family. I have had two occasions where Creationism was brought up by a fundy in our house and I began to give my theistic evolution beliefs (and even those beliefs of mine are in a constant state of debate in my OWN mind) and the fundies got up and LEFT our house because they were so offended.

Mind you, I wasn't in an angry frame of mind when I spoke of my beliefs, I was hoping for some intellectually stimulating conversation. I suppose if I had been at the home of the fundy, then I may have been asked to leave.

They feel threatened when their beliefs are questioned. They don't think it's possible to have both faith and a questioning mind. Since they NEVER question, they are unprepared for the questions.

I may have found this RLP quote on these forums, but it's one of my favorites;

"We think having faith means being convinced God exists in the same way we are convinced a chair exists. People who cannot be completely convinced of God's existence think faith is impossible for them. Not so. People who doubt can have great faith because faith is something you do, not something you think. In fact, the greater your doubt the more heroic your faith." Real Live Preacher

 

[Kris10leigh]

That's what the congregational fora are for. Except WWMC, which allows the riff-raff in, but no one here seems to care about that.

If the Christians in the debate fora felt persecuted, they could always retreat to the non-debate areas. I simply don't see why those areas needed to be closed.

DH and I were talking about this. We too don't understand why people can't just go somewhere else if they're unhappy. It's possible to not even open a thread. If one can't take the heat in the debate forums, then that person should stay out of that area.

I feel as though CF is extremely well sectioned out to the point where there is a place that suits every personality. But not every section can please every person, and I think that's ok.

 

[Loki]

DH and I were talking about this. We too don't understand why people can't just go somewhere else if they're unhappy. It's possible to not even open a thread. If one can't take the heat in the debate forums, then that person should stay out of that area.

I feel as though CF is extremely well sectioned out to the point where there is a place that suits every personality. But not every section can please every person, and I think that's ok.

Probably for the same reason people will opt to listen/watch a show that they find objectionable rather than find a new station or channel. What that reason is, I do not know.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I am convinced that it is all about fear.

I have had eleven years of experience with my husband's fundy friends and family. ...
They feel threatened when their beliefs are questioned. They don't think it's possible to have both faith and a questioning mind. Since they NEVER question, they are unprepared for the questions.

...

It sure sounds to me like it's not forums getting cleansed, but members...

I knew being welcome here wouldn't last. People like me are a threat to fundamentalist Christianity because I can prove that non-Christians -- pagans even, can be decent human beings, despite what they tell you.

Boy this brings back flashbacks of my days as a fundy. Gotta make sure we keep those nasty, evil atheists and pagans out and not let them mingle with the fold. Since we're not for God (in their minds) we're against God, and therefore evil heathens, worthy of nothing but ridicule and hatred. It's this very trash that drove me out of Christianity in the first place. Jesus is supposedly so all-powerful, so why is it that Christians are so afraid of the "dark side" when they've got Jesus on their side. It makes no sense.

I hear ya. I went through a Fundamentalist period and there is a certain fearfulness there that I no longer have now that I've become far (far) more moderate in my Christian walk. A Christian with a strong faith can remain grounded and content, regardless of the belief systems of those around him/her. The realization that God is in control just has that effect; perfect love doesn't cast out people, it casts out fear.

Could you folks please take a deep breath and lighten up on the Fundy-bashing? I've spent most of my 29 years of Christianity among Fundies, and most of them do not fit the characterizations (caricatures?) you are presenting.

 

[NorrinRadd]

...
Christianity is really quite scary to outsiders and websites provide them with a place to dip their toes in.

Digression: I think only a non-US-resident would say something like this.

Not meant to offend, just a cultural observation. For most of my life, unless one explicitly stated otherwise, it has been generally "assumed" that one is a "Christian" of some sort. In some of the little towns around here, it almost seems there are more churches than there are people.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Digression: I think only a non-US-resident would say something like this.

Not meant to offend, just a cultural observation. For most of my life, unless one explicitly stated otherwise, it has been generally "assumed" that one is a "Christian" of some sort. In some of the little towns around here, it almost seems there are more churches than there are people.

That was true for me when I lived in Florida, especially in Pensacola which is almost Alabama. But isn't true for me here in Seattle, the most unchurched city in the US. The default assumption is that one is either a nominal, totally non-practicing Christian or an agnostic or atheist, possibly a pagan. Religiously, I might as well be in Europe. And it's just taken for granted that everyone is a liberal Democrat, or else further left, maybe a Green. I guess I must be a non-US resident.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

Could you folks please take a deep breath and lighten up on the Fundy-bashing? I've spent most of my 29 years of Christianity among Fundies, and most of them do not fit the characterizations (caricatures?) you are presenting.

I wasn't bashing anyone in particular, merely making candid statements based on my observations and experience. If that's no longer allowed here, then this will most certainly be my last post.

Since you quoted me in your post, I am replying. I've spent most of my 37 years amongst fundies, and the majority of them do fit the characterizations presented. It took me four years to get over what I experienced at the hands of Christians. My own father won't speak to me and has told me he would kill me if given the opportunity -- because of his religious beliefs. So because your experience is different, you wish to invalidate mine?

 

[NorrinRadd]

... So because your experience is different, you wish to invalidate mine?

So your bad experiences make it "ok" to lump all Fundies together under one negative umbrella, AND to blame evil fundihood for unpleasant happenings at CF?

Is this an example of the "tolerance" of liberals?

 

[NorrinRadd]

That was true for me when I lived in Florida, especially in Pensacola which is almost Alabama. But isn't true for me here in Seattle, the most unchurched city in the US. The default assumption is that one is either a nominal, totally non-practicing Christian or an agnostic or atheist, possibly a pagan. Religiously, I might as well be in Europe. And it's just taken for granted that everyone is a liberal Democrat, or else further left, maybe a Green. I guess I must be a non-US resident.

Ah. I often forget that Western PA probably has more churches than many so-called "Bible-belt" states, and view my area as "typical USA."

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I really don't like to see my friends fight. The two of you have had different experiences obviously, but they're both real and both valid. Some fundies are borderline wacko fanatics, others are the coolest people you could run across. And the same goes for liberals.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Ah. I often forget that Western PA probably has more churches than many so-called "Bible-belt" states, and view my area as "typical USA."

How's your Pennsylvania Dutch? "Throw daddy downstairs his hat."

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I really don't like to see my friends fight. The two of you have had different experiences obviously, but they're both real and both valid. Some fundies are borderline wacko fanatics, others are the coolest people you could run across. And the same goes for liberals.

I'm with Izzy. You're both friends of mine, and I want to see you get along.

 

[geekgirlkelli]

So your bad experiences make it "ok" to lump all Fundies together under one negative umbrella, AND to blame evil fundihood for unpleasant happenings at CF?

Is this an example of the "tolerance" of liberals?

I tolerate people who tolerate me and usually to the same level they tolerate me, maybe even a little more. I was referencing what DeanM said about cleansing. If that isn't what is happening here then great. If it is, then yeah, I blame it on "evil fundihood" or whatever you want to call it.

I wasn't lumping all fundies together, I was relating MY EXPERIENCE and stated that what DeanM was describing reminded me of that. What is so flippin' hard to understand about that? Go back and read the post of mine that you quoted and you'll see that is exactly what I was doing. Sheesh. Get over yourself already.

 

[Catherineanne]

I am weary with how CF has become a place of debating, strife, and infighting. My vision, simply put, is for CF to be a place for Christians to fellowship online, a hangout so to speak. While I would encourage sincere non-Christians to participate in some areas of the community, our focus is becoming much more inward focused, centering around the body of Christ which involves prayer, encouragement, edification, sharing burdens, and always forbearing one another in love.

Bless! The Church has been trying to achieve this for 2,000 years. If he seriously wants to get rid of debating, strife and infighting, he would be better off kicking out the Christians, and leaving the rest to chat amongst themselves over a nice cup of tea.

 

[Rajni]

How's your Pennsylvania Dutch? "Throw daddy downstairs his hat."

ROFL! I'm descended from PA Dutch stock -- my paternal grandparents lived in Pine Grove, PA and I would visit them each summer and hear them speak the PA Dutch (actually, PA German) language. I can't speak the language, but I can speak my usual English using the PA Dutch accent, so my dad and I go back and forth with that and it's a trip! "Vell nah... vare dit I poot da dish rak!?"

We even have a recording of Professor Herman F. Schnitzel's comedy routine, "Pennsylvania Dutch Spoken Here Abouts" and it's a hoot... "Throw the donkey over the fence some hay" (or something to that effect).

 

[catlover]

Bless! The Church has been trying to achieve this for 2,000 years. If he seriously wants to get rid of debating, strife and infighting, he would be better off kicking out the Christians, and leaving the rest to chat amongst themselves over a nice cup of tea.

Exactly! I gues it's easier to scape goat the "evil" non believers...

 

[catlover]

DH and I were talking about this. We too don't understand why people can't just go somewhere else if they're unhappy. It's possible to not even open a thread. If one can't take the heat in the debate forums, then that person should stay out of that area.

I feel as though CF is extremely well sectioned out to the point where there is a place that suits every personality. But not every section can please every person, and I think that's ok.

Bannishing non-Christians in the name of beliefs is wrong and should be questioned... What will non-Christians think if we go along with this with a giant okay and thumbs up????.

 

[DeanM]

There's a couple of different issues going on at once here.

The OP refers to the temporary closing (2 weeks) of a couple of forums, and suggests that non-Christians are less welcome in the new vision for CF.

This has spun off into a contrast between liberals and fundamentalists. I'm to blame for starting the alarm that CF might not be stopping at non-Christians.

But the last thing I want to do cause any more division than is already happening. The fundies do certainly have some wackos among them, but so do the liberals and the pagans and whoever you'd like to name.

Since this primarily a liberal area, we tend to see posts that bash fundies in a very general sense. If we could just alter our language to "some fundies" when we're referring to them, we would save a lot of problems. Likewise, we should expect that liberals and pagans and whoever else be treated in the same manner.

The next dividing line in CF is not going to be "liberal versus fundy."

It's going to be "orthodox versus unorthodox."

Judging by the amount of time that it took for the "non-Christian" edict to go public, and for the "no more petitions" issue to leak out, I'd expect that we can see the announcement of the "orthodox" edict within a few weeks.

This is not going to be an edict of banning people (yet).

This is going to be a "new direction" that has already been partially enacted.

Remember the Jehovah's Witnesses? How about the Mormons? They were never actually banned, but their forums kept getting buried deeper and deeper, and the rules kept getting harsher and harsher, so that now it's like they never existed.

It doesn't take a genius to see where this is going next. The mostly-fundamentalist orthodox denominations will be favored. My guess is that the Adventists are the next to get swept away.

Remember the old dividing line of "trinitarian?"

That was the wedge that split the JW's and Mormons out of CF's list of "acceptable" ways to walk with Christ.

The next wedge will be called "orthodox," and this has already been announced, but has not been made public yet. It has already been argued against by some staff.

The problem, as I see it, is that "orthodox" may not only include certain hand-picked denominations, but it may include any manner of issues such as the inerrancy of scripture or any other fundamentalist stance.

That's when the line can be moved to exclude liberals from the favored factions in CF. We're already the bottom of the barrel. It's not a big leap to just sweep us away as "not Christian enough."

Who gets to set this dividing line?

One man.

And that's what this OP is addressing.

We're not allowed to speak out against this one man's vision. To do so is to not be Biblical (in his own words).

Also, we're not allowed to campaign or petition, or we may be banned (in his own words).

So, for us to discuss these issues, we cannot say that we are going to campaign against these new changes, or we will risk being banned.

What we can do is calmly discuss the new "vision" for CF and watch it unfold around us. There's nothing to be gained by trying to fight it. No amount of reason can seem to alter the path of this one man and his own brand of Christianity.

He wants to keep those who feel the way he does. He will favor "orthodox" Christians, and define them as he sees fit. Period.

Over the next few weeks, just watch the edicts that come out. We've seen the first few set the stage for the final cleansing of CF.

Being friendly with Christians will not save you here. Accepting Christ will not save you here. Being a good person will not save you here.

Being an "orthodox" Christian will save you, and that will be defined by one man.

I'm sorry for sounding alarmist.

I am not campaigning. I am not suggesting action.

Resistance is futile.

I just thought you guys deserve to know what's already in motion.

CF will become a fundamentalist, "orthodox" website.

The wheels are already in motion.

Our options are to endure the changes, or go somewhere else.

May God have mercy on us and bless us.