Isn't heaven a paradox?

[Curious Atheist]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

 

[GrayAngel]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

Not true. Good can exist without evil. God has always existed, but Satan did not. Besides, Hell exists.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

You assume things about Hell that we do not know. I don't believe that the literal picture of Hell in the Bible is meant to be taken 100% literally. Also, Hell is not the same for everyone. Hitler would have a very harsh afterlife, but ordinary people would not be given the same treatment.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

Again, we don't know what the afterlife is like. But I don't believe that Heaven is different for everyone. Happiness is the same for everyone. Everyone loves to be loved, and there is love everywhere in Heaven. We will all enjoy Heaven.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

I don't see any contradictions yet, just your own objections to the idea.

To an extent, I would agree that our earthly desires are replaced by new ones. On earth, our desires are centered on survival. Whether trying to live to be old, eating to provide nourishment, trying to have children (survival of genes), or trying to find salvation for our immortal souls, everything is about survival here.

In Heaven, our need to survive is gone because we have already survived. As for friends and family, our church is our family. Whether we feel sorry for the lost, or if we forget they existed, or if there is some other reality, no one can say for certain.

Thanks for asking. I hope my answers have helped.

 

[bling]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

1. We do not have to have bad around us all the time to know what good is. That is part of the reason we do spend time on Earth, to know we do not want to sin again.

2. First off the Bible does not teach sinners have an eternal life anywhere. Hell will destroy over time everything. What you have to realize is: “the people that do not want Godly type Love (unselfish type Love) but want only carnal type love, would not be happy in heaven, because it is one huge Love Feast.” Earth will not last forever, so there is no other place for them to go, leaving only annihilation.

3. All mature adult humans that have accepted Godly type Love in the form of accepting God’s forgiveness will Love much since “…he that is forgiven much loves much…” so we all have some Godly type love.

Sin on earth is not the problem and helps the non believer be burden to the point of seeking a benevolent Creator’s help (Charity) in the form of forgiveness.

 

[Hakan101]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

Logically it's not hard to think about, even if it is hard to imagine. We will have memories from this life, and the glory of heaven will be all the more great because of our suffering we went through. Think of it this way: Jesus went through horrible suffering on the cross, but that was practically momentary compared to how long it's been since his resurrection and return to heaven.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

Good thing God is nothing like Hitler then. God takes no pleasure in condemning anyone, and if we are to be fully made like Christ in heaven, neither will we. We are called to spread the Gospel in this life that all might be saved, I want my loved ones to enjoy the same grace and God I have found. But when Judgement Day comes and all things are made clear, everyone will see that what they received is just.

As Christians, we are called to love the Lord with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. More than anyone else, anything else, because he is our God. This means even loved ones on earth. So it would pain me to see a loved one be condemned (though I have hope for them now), but if it were to happen, I would know that what they received is just.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

One man's heaven may be another's hell, but God's heaven is for his people. It will be far glorious than what the human mind can imagine. You could think of the most amazing paradise fathomable, and it will be better than that. No one who enters heaven will be dissatisfied.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

These are good questions. We won't outgrow friends and family, all of our true friends and family will be united under God in his kingdom. We won't be spending eternity all by ourselves. And sin was not a necessity, it was a consequence of Adam and Eve's choice to doubt and disobey God. So we are born with this sinful nature, and we must die (in both flesh and spirit) so we may be resurrected and enter God's kingdom.

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

What does it matter if everyone's view of heaven is different? Just like God's standard of morality, his kingdom stands as it is, regardless of what men imagine it to be. We are given enough information about heaven to know it shall be glorious, there's no need to worry about exactly what it looks like. What matters is we will be finally with God, in his near presence.

 

[ebia]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

The ultimate Christian hope is not going to heaven, but to be resurrected into a world put right

 

[GrayAngel]

staff edit

I don't believe we will get bored in Heaven. Our feelings on earth work the way they do because they push us toward something. Boredom is necessary because it is not good for us to be complacent, and we need to be constantly looking for ways to improve ourselves or something in our lives. In other words, boredom is an adaptive trait to increase our chances of success.

In Heaven, we won't need boredom, so we won't have it. We will always have something to occupy us, and we will never grow tired of it.

Plus, for all we know, Heaven could be a place where all time stands still. Maybe when we're united with God, then it will become like it was before creation, except that we would be there.

Before time, God was there. Time, as I define it, is the progression of change. God doesn't change, and before God created it, there was no energy, no progress. Heaven might be the same at the end. After all energy ceases to exist, there will be no more change. No more change means no more time.

This would also make it easier to imagine time as a whole, since we would have a set beginning and an end. Until we get there, though, we really have no way of knowing.

 

[ChristianT]

The ultimate Christian hope is not going to heaven, but to be resurrected into a world put right

 

[Hakan101]

staff edit

Boredom might be the case in this life, only because everything on earth passes and fails to satisfy us. With God we have complete joy, our hearts desire nothing else. We will lack no thing with him, and so there will never be any boredom, or dissatisfaction. Remember, it's not just eternal life free of sin and suffering, it's life with God in the full.

 

[Aeneas]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

I don't recall Heaven including "only happiness".

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

Because we know that they, to put it bluntly, brought it on themselves, and God gave them a way out that they refused. Also, loving God more than the other people.

I
3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

I don't even understand where you are getting this. The Christian Heaven is not a relative thing, it doesn't depend on our perceptions.

I
I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life?

Theosis.

I
What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity?

Um, there is no "need", that is the entire point.

I
What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

Theosis.

I
None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

I don't even see where you came up with point 3.

 

[drich0150]

1. How can you have only happiness?

The bible does not say Heaven is only happiness.

There is no such thing as good if there is no evil,

Actually your current understanding of Good is defined by the contrast of evil. God is not Evil, and the bible tells us God is good.

so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness

Who says this is the case? This is not a biblical representation of Heaven. The opposite is true according to Christ's story about Lazarus and the rich man.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell?

What was you most important relationship when you were 3? You mother right? Does your relationship now with her mirror the relationship you had with her when you where 3? Does she carry you around with her every where she goes? does she change your diaper when you make a boom boom? Are you able to live and survive without her spending ever waking moment dedicated to your needs?
Why is that?

Because you matured, you grew up. As your life as an adult changed the dynamics of your relationships also changed as you age. granted even now no one wants anything bad to happen to their mothers, but at the same time our relationships do change and they do not look like what they did when we were infants. So will it change again when you come to a more complete understanding of God and the nature of creation. You will "grow up spiritually."

How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent?

Because "those people/you" wanted that separation more than God. In effect it was your decision. And Like God, I will respect what you decide to do with your version of eternity.

I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

He would only be a tyrant if He force those who did not want to be in Heaven with Him (Such as your self)

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven?

what would separate you?

Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect.

Our understanding of Heaven does not make Heaven Heaven. Being in the presents of God is what makes Heaven Heaven.

One mans heaven could be another's hell.

That is why there is a Hell. For all who do not want to be with God.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life?

To decide what you want to do with eternity.

What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity?

Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God. In essences Sin is Choice. Sin is Free Will. We have been given Sin as a means to Choose, or rather to separate ourselves from God. We in turn were also Given the Blood of Christ should we want to return.

What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignificant to the other?

Choice.

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict.

It is described in great detail, just have to know where/how to look

As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Undoubtedly all of our "views" will center themselves around one central theme. We will be with the God that Loves us.

 

[ChristianT]

Curious Atheist, I may see why you thought of point 3, probably since you think of things at some degree as relative (what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for me), but as Aeneas has said, Heaven does not rely on what we think of it. Just like I think of my mom as a mother, some co-workers see her as an equal of sorts. But this doesn't change who she is. She doesn't turn into a mother when I see her and turn into a worker when they see her. So too with Heaven, if I think there will be animals there and another person doesn't, that doesn't affect the truth of what it is.

 

[razeontherock]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

Notice the 2 separate emphases i gave your words. Read each of those phrases on their own, and receive great insight:

our understanding does not control reality, nor does it necessarily reflect it

heaven is not a concept

1. There is no such thing as good if there is no evil

This is false on it's face, and that is a main purpose of the first story in the Bible

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

See above. The understanding presented here does not reflect reality

 

[razeontherock]

If you were surrounded by good things all of the time and could only be good and managed to get everything that made you happy - then wouldn't it be quite a boring place to be?

I can only liken the idea to being on a really long summer holiday.

You either have no revelation of G-d, or poor imagination. Or perhaps both?

you hear stories of rich people getting everything they want - friends, material goods, adoration, but then a lot of them always end up rebelling against that because they want something more or they feel something is missing in their life.

So you still completely miss the purpose of this life. Ok, a lot of people do. Keep your ears open, you may get a glimpse

i'm sure if you were in heaven you would quickly forget why 'sinning' is bad and why you would not want to do it

This only proves you have not yet learned lessons appropriate for this life. (Which goes w/o say for all of us still in it)

 

[elopez]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

God wipes every tear, avails all pain and suffering for those in Heaven. In Heaven happiness is perpetual.

I would see it as unreasonable to think that mere recollections of misery indicate imperfectness, but to in fact experience pain and sadness via our memories. As happiness is again perpetual being that God's presence is so overwhelming that nothing else could ensue, one would not exhibit any such sadness in Heaven from memories of earthly misery.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

As this is similar to question 1 it needs no other answer except for the answer to 1. God's presence puts the soul at peace. Again even if we are aware of loved ones damnation the presence of God is so astonishing that there is no sense of pain or suffering or crying or any type of sadness.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

Heaven is not subjective. What makes you think this is so "sure" that it would differ from our relatives? My father and I agree as to the nature of Heaven, so this simply makes no sense.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I can't understand the concept of heaven without it contradicting itself.

1. How can you have only happiness? There is no such thing as good if there is no evil, so you would spend eternity in one state with nothing to compare it to, or even a memory of pain or sadness as this wouldn't be perfection.

Good can exist without evil if there is objective and ontological good. Light can exist without dark. If there were only light we could say we don't know what "dark" is or have a notion of it, but it doesn't mean suddenly light no longer doesn't exist. We only have a concept of something, we have no real concept of nothing except as an abstract. I can't show you nothing, because there is always something. In a universe where there is only something and never nothing we don't say that something doesn't actually exist--as this becomes mad as a hatter.

2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell? How can you rest easily for eternity knowing countless billions are being tortured, effectively by your parent? I wouldn't stand having Hitler as a Dad, even if he was only loving towards me.

I don't believe in such a concept or version of Hell, which renders this point somewhat moot.

3. How can you be with relatives in heaven? Surely their idea of heaven would be different to yours, so you cannot share a common ground without it being less than perfect. One mans heaven could be anothers hell.

I don't believe heaven is some ethereal pie in the sky. Heaven describes the presence and immanence of God. The Christian hope isn't to "go to heaven when we die" but to be with Christ and to be raised up on the last day when God renews the whole of creation. I don't plan on being in some city in the sky for eternity, but right here on planet earth with dirt under my feet and under my fingernails.

I will leave it there for now. If the reply is that you will outgrow the needs you have on Earth, like friends and family then what was the purpose of a human life? What is the need for sin on Earth if there is no sin where you will spend eternity? What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignicant to the other?

None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict. As I expect everyones view of heaven is different, which raises point 3.

Thanks

The reason why the Bible doesn't ever go into detail about a place called "Heaven" is that biblically, that's not where it has emphasis. As N.T. Wright puts it, the New Testament is far more interested in "life after life after death".

Not only is this more biblical, it's also what Christianity has always historically taught as can be found in all of our historic Creeds and Confessions.

From the Apostles' Creed,

Credo in ... carnis resurrectionem, vitam aeternam.

I believe in ... the resurrection of flesh, life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Curious Atheist]

A lot of answers refer to heaven being perpetual happiness. But how can this be the case? As happiness is only relative to its absence, ie there needs to be something better or worse for it to have any meaning. If you only knew agony, intense pain would seem good, but then you would still want to be without pain. Or then if you were without, you would want to feel pleasure, then more etc.

So this raises a paradox as God is constantly described as being only good, pure love and happiness. So if heaven is being with God, then you can only experience good things which would make the notion worthless. An eternity is a long time indeed to feel one thing. If there is indeed pain and suffering in heaven to answer this paradox, then God cannot be only good can he? If he allowed pain so you could feel the good then we are just left with life on Earth again making heaven futile.

This then raises a hugely important question of free will, if you can only ever be good then you have no free will at all. Isn’t that the reason given for sinners on Earth, the freedom to choose our own path and actions? You might say that you would never want to sin in heaven as you are too happy, but eternity is a long time so I don’t think this is a realistic argument. Even angels have the freedom to rebel against God in heaven like Satan, so it must be possible if you believe in the Bible.

Also, heaven must be a personalised utopia for it to indeed be paradise. How can there be one shared heaven? Your idea of heaven might be just being with God, mine might be sat fishing by a river and another could be racing super bikes. As the answers suggest, some would prefer a perfect version of Earth whilst others want to see their dead relatives. So how can you see a relative without your paradises converging, which would make neither paradise. You might agree with your dad’s view but there are tens of billions of potential souls to somehow make agree. So if there is indeed one version of heaven, then it is only going to be a good thing for a minority and a punishment for others. Because I certainly couldn’t stand eternity in a crowded realm of souls all worshipping God for putting them there.

 

[drich0150]

A lot of answers refer to heaven being perpetual happiness.

You are confusing Joy with Happiness.

But how can this be the case? As happiness is only relative to its absence, ie there needs to be something better or worse for it to have any meaning. If you only knew agony, intense pain would seem good, but then you would still want to be without pain. Or then if you were without, you would want to feel pleasure, then more etc.

Yet Joy is given by God, and is not dependent on negative experiences.

So this raises a paradox as God is constantly described as being only good, pure love and happiness.

Then perhaps it is time to define God as the bible does. If you are not finding the intellectual challenge in the straw man you created, then address the actual position being represented by the Bible.

So if heaven is being with God, then you can only experience good things which would make the notion worthless.

Maybe that is why it is described a little differently.

An eternity is a long time indeed to feel one thing.

Only to those who do not know any better.

If there is indeed pain and suffering in heaven to answer this paradox, then God cannot be only good can he?

Why would God introduce something simply to dispel a straw man of your own design?? Me thinks someone thinks more highly of himself than he should.

If he allowed pain so you could feel the good then we are just left with life on Earth again making heaven futile.

Even with a direct explanation based from the bible you still do not understand our time here on earth??? Or does your argument simply fall apart without this Lynch pin, and your forced to defend this dead position?

This then raises a hugely important question of free will, if you can only ever be good then you have no free will at all.

No, your Will, will be that of God.

Isn’t that the reason given for sinners on Earth, the freedom to choose our own path and actions?

No Free Will is the right to choose to be with God or not. Being with God means adopting His will (No Sin) for eternity. Do not confuse Free Will With freedom of Choice.

You might say that you would never want to sin in heaven as you are too happy, but eternity is a long time so I don’t think this is a realistic argument.

Have you lived an eternity with God? What makes you think this is unrealistic if you choose to do so?

Even angels have the freedom to rebel against God in heaven like Satan, so it must be possible if you believe in the Bible.

..And what of the 2/3's that stayed? God wants independent thought. that is why He allowed the 1/3 to leave. Subsequently that is also why not all of us want to goto Heaven, and that is why there is a Hell.

Also, heaven must be a personalized utopia for it to indeed be paradise.

Nope.

How can there be one shared heaven?

Because there is only one God.

Your idea of heaven might be just being with God, mine might be sat fishing by a river and another could be racing super bikes.

Not relevant. Heaven (as described in the bible) is not the Muslims version of Paradise/material wealth. Heaven is simply described as being in the presents of God's Glory. This alone is what makes Heaven Heaven. All of the other adornments count for nothing. For instance. What do we build our streets out of? Material that has little value else where. What do we build our gates from? materials that we do not mind exposing to whatever we want to keep out. In short the treasures of man become common place building materials. Thus elevating Heaven/God's economy above and beyond what man holds near and dear. That means the "things you want" will change. Now simply ask what would we want if all the treasures of man have become meaningless??? What is God's ecconomy based on? What has Value? Why were we created?

As the answers suggest, some would prefer a perfect version of Earth whilst others want to see their dead relatives. So how can you see a relative without your paradises converging, which would make neither paradise.

Again this is a good Question for Muslims because there "paradise" is build on the principles you are wanting to ascribe to the Heaven of the Bible. However for Christians these principles do Not apply. As everyone in this thread has already told you. What you want Heaven to be has little bearing on the reality of it.

You might agree with your dad’s view but there are tens of billions of potential souls to somehow make agree. So if there is indeed one version of heaven, then it is only going to be a good thing for a minority and a punishment for others.

If you wish to pursue this argument further then simply Show Book Chapter and Verse that ascribes these qualities to the Heaven of the Bible. Otherwise know in your heart of Hearts that this argument has been soundly defeated, when dealing with Christianity or the God of the Bible.

Because I certainly couldn’t stand eternity in a crowded realm of souls all worshiping God for putting them there.

Again that is why there is Hell. There will be no worshiping of God there. As you have pointed out Not everyone wants to goto Heaven. If you are one of these people then know Hell IS your option.

 

[Curious Atheist]

If you dismiss everything I say as a strawman, can you please do as I asked and provide a few quotes that back up what you are saying about heaven? I am not as familiar as a Christian hence why I ask questions on here.

What I have learnt is that God is good and going to heaven means being with God as you have said yourself. So my point is that how can only good be meaningful?

For example I enjoy eating chocolate as it tastes nice compared to other food. If all I ever had to eat was chocolate I would quickly tire of it and it would no longer be a treat at all. If heaven is in someway a happiness that you never tire of, then what is the point of it if you are just a puppet for God's will? If you don't have the freedom of choice or free will to rebel and defy his will then why do we need a life of our own in the first place?

 

[Curious Atheist]

oops I never posted this reply

[FONT=&quot]The bible does not say Heaven is only happiness. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If it is described as being with God, then why would it not be only good/happiness? What does the Bible say to make you think otherwise?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Actually your current understanding of Good is defined by the contrast of evil. God is not Evil, and the bible tells us God is good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is just re-iterating what I said. The only understanding of good is by comparing it to what is not good, so if heaven is being with God then nothing cannot be good in heaven. So what is this meaningless good?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. How can you be perfectly content if your loved ones burn in hell?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What was you most important relationship when you were 3? You mother right? Does your relationship now with her mirror the relationship you had with her when you where 3? Does she carry you around with her every where she goes? does she change your diaper when you make a boom boom? Are you able to live and survive without her spending ever waking moment dedicated to your needs?
Why is that?

Because you matured, you grew up. As your life as an adult changed the dynamics of your relationships also changed as you age. granted even now no one wants anything bad to happen to their mothers, but at the same time our relationships do change and they do not look like what they did when we were infants. So will it change again when you come to a more complete understanding of God and the nature of creation. You will "grow up spiritually." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Happiness is meaningless unless it is shared. My own mother died (by the good grace of God) when I was 6, if there is indeed an afterlife I would like to see her. If I end up in heaven and realise my mother had been in hell I think that would take the edge off my happiness. But maybe I would forget in a million years or so, but if heaven is for good people then part of being good is to care for others and not focus on your own selfish happiness. So why would God encourage you not caring for tortured souls?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Because "those people/you" wanted that separation more than God. In effect it was your decision. And Like God, I will respect what you decide to do with your version of eternity.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do not actively choose to not go to heaven, I just see no reason to believe it is there. Christians can’t even describe it and say ‘we do not know’. If a good god sees me being sceptical as a reason to torture me then so be it. But if I was in heaven somehow, I wouldn’t rest easy knowing people I once loved are in pain for not having faith in the unknowable.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He would only be a tyrant if He force those who did not want to be in Heaven with Him (Such as your self) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You often make these disturbing comments. So firstly, Hitler is not a tyrant for the genocide of millions as long as he wants to go to heaven and has faith? But I am a tyrant because I say ‘I don’t know’ to the unknowable? God doesn’t give you the free will to leave heaven once you are there, so he does force you to be there. Or perhaps the Bible says you can leave? Quote the scripture if it is there please.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Our understanding of Heaven does not make Heaven Heaven. Being in the presents of God is what makes Heaven Heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes but by the definition of only good, and the free will we have to make our own opinions of what is good then it must be tailored. I think animals are good, you advocate wiping out all predators and dominating nature into submission. I disagree with your idea of good at almost every turn, I wouldn’t like to be anywhere near your idea of heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is why there is a Hell. For all who do not want to be with God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You missed the point. Just look at cultural differences for an example, many views are incompatible. A Muslim heaven is sexist, I do not like that. Would a Muslim be happy in your heaven?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To decide what you want to do with eternity.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ummm, why not just create everyone in heaven? No-one would actively choose torture. People who don’t believe in your God aren’t deciding what they want, your God just as just hidden himself very well to logical/rational reasoning. He did such a good job that he even put decoy evidence contradicting the Bible (like creation, talking snakes) to the point where now even most Christians try to say it is meant to be metaphor. Why indeed did he plant fossils and evidence for the Earth being billions of years old, DNA/anatomical evidence…why indeed if he wanted us to choose heaven.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God. In essences Sin is Choice. Sin is Free Will. We have been given Sin as a means to Choose, or rather to separate ourselves from God. We in turn were also Given the Blood of Christ should we want to return.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So why aren’t we given free will in heaven?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is the point in spending a drop in the ocean in one state, which is insignificant to the other?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Choice.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Well that just changes the focus of the question slightly, why do we need a drop in the ocean being free to make choices then eternity where we have no choice but to be good?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None of it makes any sense to me at all, no wonder it was never described in the Bible because I can't see how it doesn't contradict.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It is described in great detail, just have to know where/how to look[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Can you please provide quotes of this ‘great detail’? As other Christians have said heaven is mentioned few times with no description other than being ‘with God’. Also that hell is mentioned far more frequently and is described in much more detail, what would the motivation for this be? Why does God want you to know exactly what you have to lose for not submitting your life to his rulebook, but not describe the place what you profess he really wants us to end up?[/FONT]

 

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If you were surrounded by good things all of the time and could only be good and managed to get everything that made you happy - then wouldn't it be quite a boring place to be?

I can only liken the idea to being on a really long summer holiday. You get everything you want and have a really great time but then after a while it starts to become repetitive and boring and you want to have different feelings and experiences. Also you hear stories of rich people getting everything they want - friends, material goods, adoration, but then a lot of them always end up rebelling against that because they want something more or they feel something is missing in their life.

I can imagine the answer to that would be something along the lines of 'well, you will never feel like anything is missing in heaven because it is paradise', but personally I really agree with the phrase 'you don't know what you've got till its gone' - if you have everything in goodness and love, then you will have to remind yourself of sin and evil half the time to make you realise how good you have it in heaven! If you believe what the Bible says - eternity is a long time and i'm sure if you were in heaven you would quickly forget why 'sinning' is bad and why you would not want to do it

One of my favorite quotes:

“Imaginary evil is romantic and varied; real evil is gloomy, monotonous, barren, boring. Imaginary good is boring; real good is always new, marvelous, intoxicating.” --Simone Weil

Everyone would prefer a marriage didn't have fights with people cheating on each other. Even though this is what makes for a good movie. The romantic comedy always ends with the happily ever after, but doesn't show the happily ever after playing out because people all WANT the happily ever after but they don't want to WATCH it because its boring. Imagining it seems boring, but living it is what we all want. Everyone loves an imaginary conflict, its the foundation of every movie, story, book, news story and play. But everyone hates living out a real conflict.